****'s sporting goods pulls AR's

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http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/gun-deaths-set-outstrip-car-fatalities-first-time-152632492.html

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Every day, 85 Americans are shot dead, about 53 of them in suicides. This figure is still lower than 1993's peak in gun deaths (37,666), but has risen significantly since firearm deaths reached a low in 2000 (28,393). The data goes back to 1979.


Notice what they did there? In order to get gun deaths to surpass auto deaths they had to include people who wanted to die in the first place. Sneaky.

I'm not going to say that 11,680 deaths isn't a tragedy (although this include deaths from gang wars and justifiable self defense, I didn't look at the breakdown). I'm just hoping we're all looking at the same, proper numbers.
 
If guns would not have been available it very well could have been a baseball bat, knife, etc, etc, etc.

Better off without guns? I don't mind waiting for the police when someone is kicking in my door....the police do a GREAT job but unfortunately there aren't near enough of them.

Actually what is needed is MORE citizens with legally owned firearms and a determined attitude to stop people like this. People have made entire careers studying people that "go off" and they still have not figured out how to control and/or identify these individuals. Your family dog is a loving, loyal member of the family...until....rabies, parvo, and several other mind-altering diseases.

As with a rabid dog, a person acting out his horrors/fantasies should suffer from terminal lead-poisening....plain and simple.

Someone with a legally-owned firearm within the school MAY have been able to reduce this tragedy.

Unfortunately, residents of NJ, MD, NYC, Illinois, etc, etc, etc, etc will probably NEVER be able to legally defend themselves. I'm 60 years old and have a bad heart....do you think I am able to protect myself.....you bet I can but then again I live in a State that affords me a right that I can legally defend myself if need be. Am I a John Wayne type? Nope, but I am the type that will not sit back and let criminals take advantage of me....yep, I could be killed myself but I guarantee there will be a cluster of my shell cases close by.
 
Almost all American gun owners are careful and safe people. The problem is that there are unscrupulous and sociopathic people, such as this Adam Lanza, who are only interested in their own, totally selfish impulses, and who have taken advantage of this society. Adam Lanza was not just a foul murderer, but he was also a traitor in every way, shape, and form.

It looks like Americans will have to accept some forms of stricter regulation as to firearms. That is what is coming down the pike. I am a member of the older generation and it will not affect me much, but if certain weapons are taken by the government there must be fair, reasonable, and equitable compensation paid.

Personally, I think that schools should have armed security guards these days. They actually are not all that expensive. Schools were never the idyllic places that many Americans think they were. There also should be better access to affordable mental health care in this society, and people need to stop seeing young men as disposable people.
 
Except metal detectors and "restricted access" to guns don't stop lunatics from getting weapons and using them.

Would this lunatic have stopped at the metal detector and went "Aw, shucks! A metal detector!" and turned around and went home? No, he would shot the guy monitoring the detector and gone into the school.

Unfortunately there really is no deterrent for the motivated lunatic. Keeping me from being about to buy an AR or even a pistol that comes with a 15 round magazine won't prevent another one of these.

Heck, even if you managed to get every gun off the street, the problem isn't "gone". You just created a black market where military weapons suddenly go missing and the black market figures out how to manufacture their own product. When there is money to be made, someone will find a way. Would I buy one of those guns? No. Would a lunatic looking to get his name and face on a 24-hour news channel for a week? You bet.

I'm not an NRA member, and I only own one shotgun. I'm hardly a "gun nut". I just don't think focusing on more laws (that only law abiding citizens follow) and red herrings like "violent video games" doesn't do anything but satisfy those who like to see knee jerk reactions. They are easy targets so that politicians can look like they did something.
 
Originally Posted By: tpitcher
Well, I think Metal Detectors at the school entrances would be a better solution.





Less diversity and social engineering should be first.
 
When I was in high school, we all carried pocket knives (the school only banned switch-blades), and guys that worked on ranches after school sometimes had their rattlesnake rifles in the back-window racks of their trucks out in the parking lot. 1979-1982, my friends. Just 30 years.

At that time, there were relatively few mass shootings that one could name- Whitman at the UT tower comes to mind, and not much else. So access to guns is already harder, but more KIDS (and 20-year old young men) are going on rampages than had done so prior to 1982 when I graduated.

There is SOME cause out there, some change in society. What is it? Fantasy violence? The end of corporal punishment? The decline of religion? The urbanization of the US so that fewer people have need to use and experience guns as tools? The characterization of the gun as inherently bad, making it 'forbidden fruit?' I don't know, but the one thing that seems ANTI-correlated to the propensity to mass gun violence, ironically, is the familiarity with and access to guns by young adults.
 
Originally Posted By: Fleetmon
Actually what is needed is MORE citizens with legally owned firearms and a determined attitude to stop people like this. People have made entire careers studying people that "go off" and they still have not figured out how to control and/or identify these individuals. Your family dog is a loving, loyal member of the family...until....rabies, parvo, and several other mind-altering diseases.


I agree with this. There are way too few police to protect everyone. Having legal sane carrying citizens can definitely make a difference. I heard the Portland mall shooter stopped shooting and killed himself after a carrying citizen pointed his gun at the mall shooter. The mall shooter ran down into a stairwell and shot himself ... because he saw resistance and he decided he was done.

If this country takes guns away from sane legal carrying citizens it's making a huge mistake IMO. It boils down to being able to protect yourself ... and if all guns were taken away then only the criminals will be left with guns.

I'd rather see a law that quickly executes people who commit gun crimes, regardless if the guy has mental issues or not. One quick trial - no retrials, and if found guilty then put to death the next day. I'd bet you'd see less gun violence when people were executed quickly for breaking strict laws. Yeah, that's drastic and would never happen ... but you know what, this "gun violence problem" will never cease unless something drastic is done.
 
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
A friend of mine that owns a gun store locally that caters to the more tactical gun owners said he has been cleaned out, best sales week ever. Really considering picking up a stripped lower just to have for the future.


Same thing happened prior to the passing of the brady bill. 5 to 10 years worth of sales in under a year. The gun control mass hysteria is doing the complete opposite of what the gun control advocates want.
 
I think there are 3 particular problems:
1) The vetting process on getting a gun is inadequate or the threshold is too low.

2) There needs to be a law on magazine capacity, I'd put it at 5 for a semi-auto. These killings are going to happen anyway but I think the body count could be lower if the shooters were slowed down more.

3) These gun free zones are a problem in a country full of guns as it only penalizes the law abiding citizens. Do I think every teacher should be carrying, no. But maybe the principal and VP should have access to a gun (and mandatory training) in their office and maybe one other unknown location in the building.
 
Do not forget that Japan has a much higher suicide rate than the USA does, and guns are rarely used. Also, their over-civilized culture caused bottled-up impulses that gave rise to terrible wartime atrocities.

Do not forget that there are many counties with very high murder rates where gun ownership is almost impossible, and most often in these countries the weapon of murder is anything but a gun. A whole raft of these countries, such as Brazil, beat the USA murder rate by a long shot. Mexico, Jamaica, Russia, South Africa, Honduras, El Salvador, and various Central African places do as well. Honduras for instance has a per capita murder rate about 19 times that of the USA, and even that of Mexico dwarfs that of the USA.

Russia has the USA beat in raw numbers but their population is much less, and how hard is it to get a gun there legally? Nigeria is in the same boat.

Pretty hard, I reckon.

A lot of murders in the USA involve guns. The reason why is cultural, nothing more. Get rid of them in the USA, and human ingenuity will supply substitutes real quick, and things will be at the same rate as before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
 
Originally Posted By: Duffman77
I think there are 3 particular problems:
2) There needs to be a law on magazine capacity, I'd put it at 5 for a semi-auto. These killings are going to happen anyway but I think the body count could be lower if the shooters were slowed down more.


We really need to address the root problem and not simply try and govern behavior. Please do remember that criminals, by definition, don't obey laws so it's not like the bad guys will suddenly only have 5 round magazines.

Besides, there are many legitimate sporting reasons for large capacity magazines. A prime example is the sport of "3-gun" where competitors have actually gone to the point of using 60 or 90 round magazines so they cut their time out on the course and focus on accuracy and speed. The other example is wild pig hunting where you hunt to kill, not for the meat, and those animals don't go down with a few shots.
 
5 round capacity for a semi auto, what a joke.

Great, now what happens if more than one person breaks into my home? Ask them nicely while I reload. I specifically load my 5-7 with frangible rounds when at home because it gives me 22 rounds to ensure my family's safety without reloading.
 
Originally Posted By: Cristobal
Do not forget that Japan has a much higher suicide rate than the USA does, and guns are rarely used. Also, their over-civilized culture caused bottled-up impulses that gave rise to terrible wartime atrocities.

Do not forget that there are many counties with very high murder rates where gun ownership is almost impossible, and most often in these countries the weapon of murder is anything but a gun. A whole raft of these countries, such as Brazil, beat the USA murder rate by a long shot. Mexico, Jamaica, Russia, South Africa, Honduras, El Salvador, and various Central African places do as well. Honduras for instance has a per capita murder rate about 19 times that of the USA, and even that of Mexico dwarfs that of the USA.

Russia has the USA beat in raw numbers but their population is much less, and how hard is it to get a gun there legally? Nigeria is in the same boat.

Pretty hard, I reckon.

A lot of murders in the USA involve guns. The reason why is cultural, nothing more. Get rid of them in the USA, and human ingenuity will supply substitutes real quick, and things will be at the same rate as before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate


Very good points.

This is a terrible thing to say, but I think if it were to come to it, I'd rather be shot and die quickly than be stabbed or bludgeoned to death. We cannot stand blind to the fact that evil exists in this world and that we all roll the dice every morning we leave the house.
 
Originally Posted By: Reddy45
Originally Posted By: Duffman77
I think there are 3 particular problems:
2) There needs to be a law on magazine capacity, I'd put it at 5 for a semi-auto. These killings are going to happen anyway but I think the body count could be lower if the shooters were slowed down more.


We really need to address the root problem and not simply try and govern behavior. Please do remember that criminals, by definition, don't obey laws so it's not like the bad guys will suddenly only have 5 round magazines.

Besides, there are many legitimate sporting reasons for large capacity magazines. A prime example is the sport of "3-gun" where competitors have actually gone to the point of using 60 or 90 round magazines so they cut their time out on the course and focus on accuracy and speed. The other example is wild pig hunting where you hunt to kill, not for the meat, and those animals don't go down with a few shots.


People will always cheat the law, a magazine limit is a comprimise that allows people to keep these weapons yet limit the mass killing potential. See if the proposals that come out of Washinton are as generous.

We need bigger magazines for sport is a pretty lame response after what happened last Friday.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
http://thinkprogress.org/security/2012/12/17/1345041/us-guns-international/?mobile=nc

Seems to me America is a violent country. There are countries, like Japan, that elminated guns and therefore have a low gun death rate. It can be done.


Yes, America is a violent country. But why? Because we have guns?

In your mind, does the tool determine the motive or is it something totally different? Do I buy a screwdriver at the hardware store, then come home and realize that I want to build a cabinet? Probably not.

The point I'm driving at is the misconception that guns are inherently evil. Inanimate objects cannot be anything but inanimate objects. It is the intent of the user of that object that ultimately determines the ethicality of the action. There are multiple university campuses in this country that have nuclear reactors used for physics research. I think most of us would agree that those reactors are being used for purposes that advance society and benefit us in some way. Now what if terrorists were to get control of one of those reactors? What then?
 
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
5 round capacity for a semi auto, what a joke.

Great, now what happens if more than one person breaks into my home? Ask them nicely while I reload. I specifically load my 5-7 with frangible rounds when at home because it gives me 22 rounds to ensure my family's safety without reloading.



Learn to shoot then, one shot, one kill. People spraying bullits randomly in their own defence isnt a winner either when that defence is conducted in a croweded area.

5-10 round magazines were very common for rifles in WW2. Nobody said you couldnt carry more than one mag.
 
Originally Posted By: Duffman77
Originally Posted By: Reddy45
Originally Posted By: Duffman77
I think there are 3 particular problems:
2) There needs to be a law on magazine capacity, I'd put it at 5 for a semi-auto. These killings are going to happen anyway but I think the body count could be lower if the shooters were slowed down more.


We really need to address the root problem and not simply try and govern behavior. Please do remember that criminals, by definition, don't obey laws so it's not like the bad guys will suddenly only have 5 round magazines.

Besides, there are many legitimate sporting reasons for large capacity magazines. A prime example is the sport of "3-gun" where competitors have actually gone to the point of using 60 or 90 round magazines so they cut their time out on the course and focus on accuracy and speed. The other example is wild pig hunting where you hunt to kill, not for the meat, and those animals don't go down with a few shots.


People will always cheat the law, a magazine limit is a comprimise that allows people to keep these weapons yet limit the mass killing potential. See if the proposals that come out of Washinton are as generous.

We need bigger magazines for sport is a pretty lame response after what happened last Friday.


Let's say such an action passes and in a few months you can only legally purchase and possess 5 round magazines. What do you think happened to all of the 20/30/xxx round magazines prior to then? Most were probably owned by law abiding citizens who will either toss 'em or put them away, but you can bet some were owned by criminals who will exchange them on the black market. They'll still circulate and be used to commit crimes, only this time the good guys are stuck with 5 round magazines. So in response to 26 humans being massacred in a small town, it is somehow better that 300 million people are suddenly less able to defend themselves against attackers?

The common thread I'm seeing here is that one side of this argument recognizes evil and prefers to have a fighting chance, while the other wants to turn the other cheek.
 
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The problem is mental health has been ignored in North America since the 60s?

There used to be a time when there was one breadwinner and someone at home to make sure the kids are raised properly.

Today, the family comes last and we reap what we sow.

When my father was growing up his mother watched them, and he used to go shooting all the time, buy surplus ammo, and all go out to the fields on the South Shore and shoot paint cans and dumped garbage. He was doing this when he was 12 years old.

My mother was home for the whole time we were young, and I learned to shoot at 4.

Today, our children are raised by daycare workers in the formative years.

I am glad that I have the means to keep my daughter home until she is ready for kindergarten. She gets plenty of hugs and kisses and always has a parent with her the whole day.

Am I thinking of getting rid of my guns? Yes, I am going to see about that. I just don't get the pleasure out of it as a sport that I used to.

I just fear that if that right is given up by Americans, other rights are sure to follow.
 
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