Redline vs Motul for older Mercedes-Benz V8?

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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Since we're talking about Red Line oil, their highest VI oil is their 0W-40 with a 197 VI. This oil has proven to be no more shear prone than any of their lower VI grades.
Check out the following UOA. Absolutely no shear, in fact the oil's viscosity has increased by 2%:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...609#Post2377609


One UOA doesn't exactly build an air tight case.
 
RL's 0W-XX range of oils are their most recent formulations and start with the highest natural VI base stocks of their entire range of oils.
Because of this even their 0W-40 only needs to use half the amount of VIIs that a typical GP III 5W-30 would contain.

Having said that, I haven't seen a RL 0W-40 UOA with any significant oil shear. You haven't either otherwise you would have posted it.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Having said that, I haven't seen a RL 0W-40 UOA with any significant oil shear. You haven't either otherwise you would have posted it.


The absence of evidence isn't evidence in and of itself, simple logic dictates that this oil is going to be more prone to shear than their VII free 5W-30.
 
I've presented evidence of zero shear and you have discounted it.
A complete adversion to the use of the best VIIs in small quantities will eliminate some excellent formulations from consideration.
The benefits of dramatically improved start-up flow with the use of some VIIs is more than a fair trade for what is just a theoretical possibility of oil shear. The end result is a superior overall lubrication.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I've presented evidence of zero shear and you have discounted it.


Wrong, I simply said a single UOA doesn't build an air tight case for a lack of shearing. It's a single data point, from a single engine, and from a single driver. It doesn't prove anything conclusively.

Quote:
A complete adversion to the use of the best VIIs in small quantities will eliminate some excellent formulations from consideration.


Where is this complete aversion to VIIs? I believe I actually recommended 0W-40 instead of 5W-40 in this instance.
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
X-cess 5w40:



STANDARDS ACEA A3 / B4 API SM / CF
APPROVALS BMW LL-01
GM-Opel LL B-025 (Diesel)
MB-Approval 229.5
Porsche A40
Renault RN0700
Renault RN0710
VW 502 00 – 505 00
PERFORMANCES FIAT 9.55535-H2, FIAT 9.55535-M2, FIAT 9.55535-N


Oh ok, I'm not familiar with this oil I have never come across it. But if it meets 229.5 its a good oil so use it with confidence.

M119's are very durable motors so you have to try pretty hard to kill one. I have heard of a few with 600k on them with the cross thatch still on the cylinder walls.

Keep the air filters clean and use paper ones, not those junk oiled ones. Stick good none resistor copper Bosch plugs in it, and it will run forever.
 
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Then it's settled...get an oil with VIIs, run it, and get your analysis done. :)

I don't think this motor will shear oil much.
 
I did not want to imply that VII is bad, but that Redline requires NONE to MUCH LESS than most other brands in order to meet the specifications.
I would not recommend avoiding a Redline oil because it has VII's and choosing one that does not meet the desired specifications because it has none.
VII is only 1 small part of the picture.
I don't want to lead you away from the oil that BEST meets the specifications for your application.
Some of the folks posting in this thread know far more than I do about oil.

The other question that I have about the particular application is......How long will this vehicle be run when it is started up in the cold weather?
I start my vehicle up.....drive 10-20 minutes and then shut it down.
A few times a week, it gets to run for 30 minutes or more, but the 5 days a week of short trips is something that is not the best for oil.
Short trip driving is going to get a fair amount of moisture into the oil, and some other "badies" that are normally drawn out through the PCV system when the motor gets to run for 30 or more minutes.
My short trip driving, even with the weekend runs, is what keeps me away from extended drain intervals.

If the vehicle in question is not facing regular short trip driving, then this is not a concern.
However, if it is facing regular short trip driving, would it change the oil recommendation for the OP's application?
 
You make a good point and the OP doesn't mention anything about how he uses his car or the climate in which he lives.

Short trip driving, particularly in a temperate winter climate with no lengthly high speed runs does give an edge to M1 0W-40 since it is lighter on start-up but I would also consider some lighter (on start-up as well) oils such as any OTC 5W-30 synthetic on sale for winter use.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: ringmaster

For use in a late-model, water-cooled Porsche does the Redline 0W40 have better specs than the M1 0W40?

Just to point it out, M1 0w-40 actually meets the Porsche A40 spec while RL 0w-40 is only "recommended" for it. I'm sure both oils will do just fine in your application, regardless.


Yes, unless you are doing VERY LONG/multiple session open track road racing with said Porschie (and maybe even then according to most on here
wink.gif
), the M1 0W-40 would be more than fine.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
RL's 0W-XX range of oils are their most recent formulations and start with the highest natural VI base stocks of their entire range of oils.
Because of this even their 0W-40 only needs to use half the amount of VIIs that a typical GP III 5W-30 would contain.


I am hoping that the above is correct/true (and also counting on it being true with my current OCI), especially the parts about RL using the highest natural VI base stocks, and also using half the amount (and hopefully at least TWICE the quality of) the VIIs of a 'typical' group 3/conventional non 0W-XX oil.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
I am hoping that the above is correct/true (and also counting on it being true with my current OCI), especially the parts about RL using the highest natural VI base stocks, and also using half the amount (and hopefully at least TWICE the quality of) the VIIs of a 'typical' group 3/conventional non 0W-XX oil.
wink.gif



It wouldn't surprise in the least if it is true as RL is already making ~170 VI finished oils with zero VIIs, not to mention that esters are so customizable it's not hard to imagine that RL 0W-40 is pretty light on VIIs.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
You've presented no evidence either way.
I do agree that one UOA isn't conclusive but one with zero shear does says a lot.


You made a pretty concrete statement here:
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Since we're talking about Red Line oil, their highest VI oil is their 0W-40 with a 197 VI. This oil has proven to be no more shear prone than any of their lower VI grades.


I'm sorry, but one UOA hasn't "proven" much of anything. What it proves is that in that particular application and in that particular usage it didn't shear. It doesn't "prove" that RL 0W-40 is "no more shear prone" that their VII-free grades, IMO.

I'm not arguing against the use of VIIs, I'm simply questioning the proof of RL 0W-40 being just as shear resistant as their VII free grades based on a single UOA.
 
A while ago, member A Harman provided me with a rough estimate of a "shear resistance" formula. I threw it into Google Docs with some of the oils we're talking about here (and some other VW 502/505/503.01 oils).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?...VE&hl=en_US

It's effectively HTHS over dynamic viscosity @ 150C.


Redline 0w30: 0.8307
Redline 0w40: 0.7700
Redline 5w30: 1.0519
Redline 5w40: 0.9314

Similar group V oils:

Motul 300V 5w30: 0.9855
Motul 300V 5w40: 0.9563
Renewable Lube 0w30: 0.9055
Renewable Lube 5w30: 0.9651
Renewable Lube 5w40: 0.8198
Fuchs Titan Race Pro S 5w40: 0.8610

And just for grins:

Mobil 1 0w40: 0.8594
Castrol Syntec 0w30: 0.9275


A Harman and I discussed this formula at length and we question its usefulness with extremely shear-resistant oils like Redline and 300V; the values can actually exceed 1.0 which we speculate is impossible. Some assumptions were made in the formula but I think it's still useful.

tl;dr: 5w30s with HTHS of 3.5+ seem to be the most shear-resistant
 
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It's an approximation of how shear-resistant an oil would be. Higher numbers = more stable. I'm not saying everyone should buy the one with the highest number, but the shear-resistance value is also a good indicator of the quality of the basestocks used.

If you drive a motor that's particularly hard on oil, or you engage in racing on the weekends, these numbers would be more important.

Again, it's only an approximation.
 
Originally Posted By: ringmaster


I have read great things about the Rotella T6 5W40 and I used it in my old Land Cruiser but I wanted a Group IV or Ester oil for this car.

Thoughts?


Im not sure that the engine conditions are severe enough to warrant anything beyond an M1 0w-40 or RTS 5w-40.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
RL's 0W-XX range of oils are their most recent formulations and start with the highest natural VI base stocks of their entire range of oils.
Because of this even their 0W-40 only needs to use half the amount of VIIs that a typical GP III 5W-30 would contain.



Could you point us to the documentation of this?
 
The president of Renewable Lube actually told me all their 0wX oils require some PAO to achieve the cold temp performance. Fuchs/Silkolene has told me the same thing too.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
RL's 0W-XX range of oils are their most recent formulations and start with the highest natural VI base stocks of their entire range of oils.
Because of this even their 0W-40 only needs to use half the amount of VIIs that a typical GP III 5W-30 would contain.

Could you point us to the documentation of this?

The RL 0W-40 base oil VI is at least 166.
A typical GP III base oil is no higher than 120 and a 5W-30 syn typically has a 170 VI.
 
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