Redline vs Motul for older Mercedes-Benz V8?

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: ringmaster
Silly question after we've come this far but what Group/base stock are these Redline oils? I need to find out about the Motul 8100 X-cess too!


RL uses Group V polyol ester base stocks with some PAO in the mix, they won't tell exact percentages.

From what I've seen Motul doesn't say anything about what type of ester(s) they are using in their ester-based oils.



All they say is "double ester". I spoke to one of their engineers on the phone and the simplest explanation he gave was that one ester is there for shear protection, the other for high-temp protection.

Their 300V (and some 8100) oils are fairly high in ester but are probably overkill for most street cars. I would actually suggest calling Motul USA and asking for Joey, he's awesome with answering questions.

 

[wiswind]

From what I have read, the Redline 0W-40 has Viscosity Index Improvers (VII).
The 0W-20 has none, the 0W-30 has some, and the 0W-40 as a bit more.
The 5W-30 has no VII.
I do not know if Redline 5W-40 has any or not.
I do not know if this is important to you, but this is one reason that I like the Redline oil because the base stock requires no....to much less VII than most other products in the same viscosity range.
VII is one thing that breaks down in a oil.
This is one reason that Redline has a reputation for staying in the viscosity grade (not shearing down).

I am not familiar with Motul, but it may well be that what I stated above about VII's applies to their product line as well.
It sounds like they are also very helpful on the tech support side in answering questons, so that might be something to ask.

Both Motul and Redline are HIGHLY regarded oils.
It is good to read that Motul, like Redline is helpful in providing information on their products.

 

[BobFout]

Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
i meant this oil is made for diesels but can be used for gas according to dave at red line.


Yes, since becoming CJ-4, RL 5w40 has less moly than the other non-CJ-4 oils.

 

[ringmaster]

Originally Posted By: wiswind
From what I have read, the Redline 0W-40 has Viscosity Index Improvers (VII).
The 0W-20 has none, the 0W-30 has some, and the 0W-40 as a bit more.
The 5W-30 has no VII.
I do not know if Redline 5W-40 has any or not.
I do not know if this is important to you, but this is one reason that I like the Redline oil because the base stock requires no....to much less VII than most other products in the same viscosity range.
VII is one thing that breaks down in a oil.
This is one reason that Redline has a reputation for staying in the viscosity grade (not shearing down).

I am not familiar with Motul, but it may well be that what I stated above about VII's applies to their product line as well.
It sounds like they are also very helpful on the tech support side in answering questons, so that might be something to ask.



Wow, great info guys!

The Redline 5W30 sounds like a great oil with no VIIs.

Based on the AEHaas oil pressure theory I supose I could try 5W30 in this engine to see where the pressure ends up? The problem is the oil pressure gauge only goes to 3bar so I can check pressure at hot idle but it won't tell me much about hot pressure at the higher RPMs.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster
Originally Posted By: wiswind
From what I have read, the Redline 0W-40 has Viscosity Index Improvers (VII).
The 0W-20 has none, the 0W-30 has some, and the 0W-40 as a bit more.
The 5W-30 has no VII.
I do not know if Redline 5W-40 has any or not.
I do not know if this is important to you, but this is one reason that I like the Redline oil because the base stock requires no....to much less VII than most other products in the same viscosity range.
VII is one thing that breaks down in a oil.
This is one reason that Redline has a reputation for staying in the viscosity grade (not shearing down).

I am not familiar with Motul, but it may well be that what I stated above about VII's applies to their product line as well.
It sounds like they are also very helpful on the tech support side in answering questons, so that might be something to ask.



Wow, great info guys!

The Redline 5W30 sounds like a great oil with no VIIs.

Based on the AEHaas oil pressure theory I supose I could try 5W30 in this engine to see where the pressure ends up? The problem is the oil pressure gauge only goes to 3bar so I can check pressure at hot idle but it won't tell me much about hot pressure at the higher RPMs.


HTHS viscosity will have the best correlation with hot oil pressure, so RL 5W-30 should have roughly the same/slightly higher oil pressure than the slightly lower HTHS Motul 5W-40. RL 5W-30 is a good choice for applications calling for a light(ish) 40-weight.

 

[CATERHAM]

Hot idle OP is still very useful.
Find out what the spec' is for your engine. If the engine is in good condition even with a typically light 5W-30 like M1, PP or PU you should have more than adequate OP when the engine is as hot as it ever gets.

RL 5W-30 is really a 40wt oil with it's HTHS vis of 3.8cP.
Because of it's lower 162 VI it's actually heavier than most light 40wts like M1 0W-40 (HTHS 3.8cP, VI 185) at all start-up temp's.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: ringmaster
Silly question after we've come this far but what Group/base stock are these Redline oils? I need to find out about the Motul 8100 X-cess too!


RL uses Group V polyol ester base stocks with some PAO in the mix, they won't tell exact percentages.

From what I've seen Motul doesn't say anything about what type of ester(s) they are using in their ester-based oils.


^^^Correct.
Motul is even MORE secrective, and 'proprietary' than Red Line when it comes to not only the Group 4/5 base oil percentages, but even the add pack ppm contents.

(Belive me, I've even tried to call French H.Q.ers to find out this info, although I was interested in/asking about their 300V stuff!)

The ONLY oil company I've ever even heard of which has no problem with disclosing the group 4/5 base oil percentages is the MPT Thirty K line of Motul 300V/Torco SR-5 like-priced oils. (CATERHAM will not like them because they do not have sky-high V.I.s, even though they REFUSE to use V.I.I.s

)

 

[dparm]

Don't call Motul France, call Motul USA. Ask for Joey. He'll tell you what you want to know.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: wiswind
From what I have read, the Redline 0W-40 has Viscosity Index Improvers (VII).
The 0W-20 has none, the 0W-30 has some, and the 0W-40 as a bit more.
The 5W-30 has no VII.
I do not know if Redline 5W-40 has any or not.
I do not know if this is important to you, but this is one reason that I like the Redline oil because the base stock requires no....to much less VII than most other products in the same viscosity range.
VII is one thing that breaks down in a oil.
This is one reason that Redline has a reputation for staying in the viscosity grade (not shearing down).


Their 5W-40 does contain VIIs according to Dave.
This, and the reduced moly/add pack (along with being too thick for my app. in both HTHS, and cSt @100*F) are the reasons I will not use this weight Red Line.
And yes, I AM 'experimenting' with their VII containing (hopefully VERY high quality) 0Ws for the winter, but I am NOT giving up the moly/add pack with them.

I also generally tend to agree with you on the VIIs grade') breaking down/shearing, but many others on here would BLAST us for even thinking this, or at least thinking that ANY harm could come of it.

 

[dparm]

Silkolene (now Fuchs) and Maxima will openly discuss their ester formulations. I spoke to the president of Maxima oils (Danny) and he was awesome, told me precisely what I wanted to know about their formulas. A lube engineer at Silkolene told me exactly what their ester content was too, and their lube engineers openly admitted that the tech sheet was out of date and they too were waiting for new data.

Torco will give you answers but they need to be squeezed a bit. Their SR5 is a true race oil. TBN is like 5.2 or something crazy like that.

The president of Renewable Lube is also pretty frank about what they do.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Don't call Motul France, call Motul USA. Ask for Joey. He'll tell you what you want to know.


Tried that first, STILL told "proprietary info" on the base oil % AND add pack ppms.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Their 5W-40 does contain VIIs according to Dave.


It has to be minimal because RL 5W-40 is one of the most shear resistant 5W-40s out there, right there with 300V 5W-40.

 

[CATERHAM]

Gentlemen, choosing an oil because it containd no VIIs is very old school thinking. The quality of the best VIIs used today are so good that a formulator is not maximizing the potential VI of an oil by not using them at least in small quantities high enough to offset oxidative thickening of the oil in long OCI.
The fact of the matter is that oil thickening is more of an issue than loss of viscosity.

Since we're talking about Red Line oil, their highest VI oil is their 0W-40 with a 197 VI. This oil has proven to be no more shear prone than any of their lower VI grades.
Check out the following UOA. Absolutely no shear, in fact the oil's viscosity has increased by 2%:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...609#Post2377609

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Gentlemen, choosing an oil because it containd no VIIs is very old school thinking. The quality of the best VIIs used today are so good that a formulator is not maximizing the potential VI of an oil by not using them at least in small quantities high enough to offset oxidative thickening of the oil in long OCI.
The fact of the matter is that oil thickening is more of an issue than loss of viscosity.

Since we're talking about Red Line oil, their highest VI oil is their 0W-40 with a 197 VI. This oil has proven to be no more shear prone than any of their lower VI grades.
Check out the following UOA. Absolutely no shear, in fact the oil's viscosity has increased by 2%:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...609#Post2377609


OK. This, (the bolded above) is what I wanted to hear/know. Thank You!

The only problem is that I get a sense that even the Red Line 0W-40's quite substantial 197 V.I. is NOT even "high enough" for your tastes, and the weight you put on stratospheric V.I.s, and how much of them must be added/quality of theseknow this {the quality} for certain???) in order to get those >200+ V.I.s??

 

[ringmaster]

You guys are getting too advanced for me too fast

I do understand the basics so I have narrowed it down to either the Redline 5W30 or 0W40. The 0W40 looks to provide the best of all worlds on paper unless the VIIs get in the way!?!?!? Since I plan to run very short OCIs the 0W40 should be sufficiently robust, right?

For use in a late-model, water-cooled Porsche does the Redline 0W40 have better specs than the M1 0W40?

 

[CATERHAM]

Honestly I don't think there's anything to be gained over M1 0W-40. RL is definitely overkill.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster

For use in a late-model, water-cooled Porsche does the Redline 0W40 have better specs than the M1 0W40?

Just to point it out, M1 0w-40 actually meets the Porsche A40 spec while RL 0w-40 is only "recommended" for it. I'm sure both oils will do just fine in your application, regardless.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver

The only problem is that I get a sense that even the Red Line 0W-40's quite substantial 197 V.I. is NOT even "high enough" for your tastes, and the weight you put on stratospheric V.I.s, and how much of them must be added/quality of theseknow this {the quality} for certain???) in order to get those >200+ V.I.s??

The perfect motor oil viscosity is one that remains constant with temperature change. I'm guessing, but that likely corresponds to a VI of about 1,000, so we've got a long way to go before I'm satisfied. But I'm not alone, it is the OEM that are the main drivers behind the push for VIs as high as possible.
Case in point is M1 0W-40 with it's 185 VI that is the FF on a bunch of high end cars.
And then there are the Japanese 0W-20 OEMs with their 200+ VIs.
These oils have been developed to death so their is no issue with excessive oil shear.
Oil shear is just not the problem it once was particlarly when you're dealing with the better formulators. Having said that, the GP III based 5W-50 grade still seems to be commonly shear prone so that's something to be aware of if you're considering that grade.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Honestly I don't think there's anything to be gained over M1 0W-40. RL is definitely overkill.


I think that a formulation higher in esters will provide some benefit, though it may not be hugely noticeable.

I've always been drawn to ester-heavy oils because they can of course tolerate racing (which I do on weekends) but because of the "stickiness" it has on metals. Sounds like a good thing to have for cold-starts.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Honestly I don't think there's anything to be gained over M1 0W-40. RL is definitely overkill.


I think that a formulation higher in esters will provide some benefit, though it may not be hugely noticeable.

I've always been drawn to ester-heavy oils because they can of course tolerate racing (which I do on weekends) but because of the "stickiness" it has on metals. Sounds like a good thing to have for cold-starts.


Agreed