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Redline 5w-30?
- Thread starter jbellx3
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His point is, that if an OEM said do whatever the heck you want, when you want, and how you want it, they'd be on the hook for warranty, no matter how negligent you were.
Sure, thats why they shoot certificated products, like oil, to cover theirs, uncovering those of the customers, if you make wrong choices to the point of damage. They wont say, just to illustrate, that ^PIB and GTX & others are no-nons on Mercs, if you wear Pb shoes^ The list would be too long, same for the sues... rsrsrs
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Note that applications, expectations, and demands differ. A lawnmower engine is likely to have several things around it fail long before its own internal components fail, and they tend to be able to use all kinds of semi-sane lubricants. Many car engines have been that way over the years, too, especially with low power density and short OCIs.
You take something and push a 15,000 mile OCI and give it a fair bit of power, you're going to see something that isn't best served by some generic 5w-20 off the shelf. Heck, look at motorcycles. They're often little air cooled engines, "just like" lawnmowers. Note that you don't just grab leftover GF-5 5w-30 and toss it in the sump, like you would with a mower.
You take something and push a 15,000 mile OCI and give it a fair bit of power, you're going to see something that isn't best served by some generic 5w-20 off the shelf. Heck, look at motorcycles. They're often little air cooled engines, "just like" lawnmowers. Note that you don't just grab leftover GF-5 5w-30 and toss it in the sump, like you would with a mower.
And if it is as simple as that, nothing stops RL to obtain approval. Again, cheap process and they can offer peace of mind for "non-car" people.
But considering they are part of Conoco, I think their days as boutique oil are numbered, unfortunately, since it is in the end very good oil.
But considering they are part of Conoco, I think their days as boutique oil are numbered, unfortunately, since it is in the end very good oil.
It is very good oil, better than most Ive used in my cars. Some certifications limit good stuff that has in some non certified oils, for gov reasons. Joe Gibbs oils won Nascar several times but doesnt carry Porsche A40 spec. SO WHAT? Will harm catalists? If your car consumes a lot of oil will, since it is expressive the Phosforous amount!
You need to do some philosofy and math to get rid of certification, but can have a better product for you application, that way.
You need to do some philosofy and math to get rid of certification, but can have a better product for you application, that way.
So you are claiming that they won NASCAR because of the oil? How do you know the conditions of the engines after the race? Were they better than they were on other oils?
How do you know why an oil does not meet a certification? How would you (or me) know that the reason it doesn't meet it is a good thing? Maybe it is a good thing for racing but not for street use. How would I know?
You claim the oil is "better than most" you used in your cars. How do you know this?
Originally Posted By: Pontual
It is very good oil, better than most Ive used in my cars. Some certifications limit good stuff that has in some non certified oils, for gov reasons. Joe Gibbs oils won Nascar several times but doesnt carry Porsche A40 spec. SO WHAT? Will harm catalists? If your car consumes a lot of oil will, since it is expressive the Phosforous amount!
You need to do some philosofy and math to get rid of certification, but can have a better product for you application, that way.
How do you know why an oil does not meet a certification? How would you (or me) know that the reason it doesn't meet it is a good thing? Maybe it is a good thing for racing but not for street use. How would I know?
You claim the oil is "better than most" you used in your cars. How do you know this?
Originally Posted By: Pontual
It is very good oil, better than most Ive used in my cars. Some certifications limit good stuff that has in some non certified oils, for gov reasons. Joe Gibbs oils won Nascar several times but doesnt carry Porsche A40 spec. SO WHAT? Will harm catalists? If your car consumes a lot of oil will, since it is expressive the Phosforous amount!
You need to do some philosofy and math to get rid of certification, but can have a better product for you application, that way.
And Pontual should know very well that just because something is good in NASCAR (or any other race) doesn't automatically qualify it for street use, much less make it even a feasible choice for a street application. Since we have certain mutually exclusive street specifications, how could we possibly just assume that a race oil is better? How many race oils have very little detergency, or a viscosity that isn't useful to a certain street application?
What works in a nitromethane dragster isn't going to be a good choice for my G37. And, I doubt that the bespoke Quaker State that goes into a Force India F1 car would be a good choice for my F-150.
On the other hand, Joe Gibbs will take a pile of your money for his oil.
What works in a nitromethane dragster isn't going to be a good choice for my G37. And, I doubt that the bespoke Quaker State that goes into a Force India F1 car would be a good choice for my F-150.
On the other hand, Joe Gibbs will take a pile of your money for his oil.
OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: Pontual
Joe Gibbs oils won Nascar several times but doesnt carry Porsche A40 spec.
Considering nothing Porsche-based runs in NASCAR, what is your point? The oil they recommend for Porsche (DT40, out of warranty) is not what they run in NASCAR either. This seems like a rather useless tangent
The oil Mobil supplies for NASCAR teams most likely also doesn't carry the Porsche approval, LOL! But that doesn't stop them from manufacturing one that does.
Joe Gibbs oils won Nascar several times but doesnt carry Porsche A40 spec.
Considering nothing Porsche-based runs in NASCAR, what is your point? The oil they recommend for Porsche (DT40, out of warranty) is not what they run in NASCAR either. This seems like a rather useless tangent
The oil Mobil supplies for NASCAR teams most likely also doesn't carry the Porsche approval, LOL! But that doesn't stop them from manufacturing one that does.
My point is that the other way around also apply. The Lack of certification, doesnt mean RL isnt good oil. Nascar is pretty hard on the oil, you wouldnt want to run gtx or pyb there. Nascar Joe Gibbs oils use mPao as base, so it is stable and keep viscosity ... Dont you guys kschanchin, OVERKILL and Garak understand examplification to make a point? Read the thread all over again, your trying to get the train after it arrived its destination ...
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Originally Posted By: kschachn
So you are claiming that they won NASCAR because of the oil? How do you know the conditions of the engines after the race? Were they better than they were on ...
Normally the winner had a better motor, and if the oil is weak the best engine will go down during the endurance ... Winner cars use good oil, isnt that the main marketing philos of the oil industry?
So you are claiming that they won NASCAR because of the oil? How do you know the conditions of the engines after the race? Were they better than they were on ...
Normally the winner had a better motor, and if the oil is weak the best engine will go down during the endurance ... Winner cars use good oil, isnt that the main marketing philos of the oil industry?
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Originally Posted By: kschachn
So you are claiming that they won NASCAR because of the oil? How do you know the conditions of the engines after the race? Were they better than they were on ...
Normally the winner had a better motor, and if the oil is weak the best engine will go down during the endurance ... Winner cars use good oil, isnt that the main marketing philos of the oil industry?
Any why would we care about NASCAR and not Formula1 where Mobil1 is present?
Originally Posted By: kschachn
So you are claiming that they won NASCAR because of the oil? How do you know the conditions of the engines after the race? Were they better than they were on ...
Normally the winner had a better motor, and if the oil is weak the best engine will go down during the endurance ... Winner cars use good oil, isnt that the main marketing philos of the oil industry?
Any why would we care about NASCAR and not Formula1 where Mobil1 is present?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Pontual
My point is that the other way around also apply. The Lack of certification, doesnt mean RL isnt good oil.
Nobody said it didn't. But it does make it's performance more of an unknown without set approvals in place to guarantee a specific level of performance in OEM-spec applications.
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Nascar is pretty hard on the oil, you wouldnt want to run gtx or pyb there. Nascar Joe Gibbs oils use mPao as base, so it is stable and keep viscosity ... Dont you guys kschanchin, OVERKILL and Garak understand examplification to make a point? Read the thread all over again, your trying to get the train after it arrived its destination ...
Your "examplification" didn't make sense though, as your example was in reference to a product not used in that venue and an approval not relevant to it. It is like mentioning .338 lapua ammo and a specific company not having the military approval and then talking about how well their 45ACP rounds do in 3-gun, which they sponsor/participate in. Follow?
My point is that the other way around also apply. The Lack of certification, doesnt mean RL isnt good oil.
Nobody said it didn't. But it does make it's performance more of an unknown without set approvals in place to guarantee a specific level of performance in OEM-spec applications.
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Nascar is pretty hard on the oil, you wouldnt want to run gtx or pyb there. Nascar Joe Gibbs oils use mPao as base, so it is stable and keep viscosity ... Dont you guys kschanchin, OVERKILL and Garak understand examplification to make a point? Read the thread all over again, your trying to get the train after it arrived its destination ...
Your "examplification" didn't make sense though, as your example was in reference to a product not used in that venue and an approval not relevant to it. It is like mentioning .338 lapua ammo and a specific company not having the military approval and then talking about how well their 45ACP rounds do in 3-gun, which they sponsor/participate in. Follow?
Originally Posted By: Pontual
My point is that the other way around also apply. The Lack of certification, doesnt mean RL isnt good oil. Nascar is pretty hard on the oil, you wouldnt want to run gtx or pyb there.
And there's a very good possibility I don't want NASCAR oil in my G37 or F-150, either. We understand the point. You know full well I have no problem with non-approved lubricants, within reason, including the original thoughts related to this thread. That doesn't open up all kinds of doors or change the rules of logic, however.
Red Line is a great oil. I don't doubt that at all. It is an expensive oil, mind you. Joe Gibbs certainly makes a lot of good oils. They're more expensive yet. I might be able to justify to myself running Red Line in something like my G37, though that's pushing it. In any case, there is a limit to what I'm willing to spend, since there are diminishing returns. Don't forget that oil used in racing, too, may or may not be the same as or even similar to something you can normally get off the shelf. Endurance racing tends to use something fairly roadworthy. Funny cars and Formula 1 certainly do not.
As for diminishing returns, Joe Gibbs provides a perfect example. They and others trumpet their utility to even a stock small block Chevy. Yet, for the price of two or three Joe Gibbs oil changes, I can replace a cam and set of lifters. That's what I'm talking about when I mention diminishing returns. Spending $300 on annual oil changes to protect $200 worth of parts is foolhardy.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Any why would we care about NASCAR and not Formula1 where Mobil1 is present?
That's right, and the Force India F1 team uses Quaker State, so I must be really set.
My point is that the other way around also apply. The Lack of certification, doesnt mean RL isnt good oil. Nascar is pretty hard on the oil, you wouldnt want to run gtx or pyb there.
And there's a very good possibility I don't want NASCAR oil in my G37 or F-150, either. We understand the point. You know full well I have no problem with non-approved lubricants, within reason, including the original thoughts related to this thread. That doesn't open up all kinds of doors or change the rules of logic, however.
Red Line is a great oil. I don't doubt that at all. It is an expensive oil, mind you. Joe Gibbs certainly makes a lot of good oils. They're more expensive yet. I might be able to justify to myself running Red Line in something like my G37, though that's pushing it. In any case, there is a limit to what I'm willing to spend, since there are diminishing returns. Don't forget that oil used in racing, too, may or may not be the same as or even similar to something you can normally get off the shelf. Endurance racing tends to use something fairly roadworthy. Funny cars and Formula 1 certainly do not.
As for diminishing returns, Joe Gibbs provides a perfect example. They and others trumpet their utility to even a stock small block Chevy. Yet, for the price of two or three Joe Gibbs oil changes, I can replace a cam and set of lifters. That's what I'm talking about when I mention diminishing returns. Spending $300 on annual oil changes to protect $200 worth of parts is foolhardy.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Any why would we care about NASCAR and not Formula1 where Mobil1 is present?
That's right, and the Force India F1 team uses Quaker State, so I must be really set.
The other way around counts for nothing. The oil that meets the specification by definition meets the specification. No further reading of the tea leaves is necessary, unlike an oil that does not meet a specification.
And what about the other stuff I asked you? The important questions about how you know?
Originally Posted By: Pontual
My point is that the other way around also apply. The Lack of certification, doesnt mean RL isnt good oil. Nascar is pretty hard on the oil, you wouldnt want to run gtx or pyb there. Nascar Joe Gibbs oils use mPao as base, so it is stable and keep viscosity ... Dont you guys kschanchin, OVERKILL and Garak understand examplification to make a point? Read the thread all over again, your trying to get the train after it arrived its destination ...
And what about the other stuff I asked you? The important questions about how you know?
Originally Posted By: Pontual
My point is that the other way around also apply. The Lack of certification, doesnt mean RL isnt good oil. Nascar is pretty hard on the oil, you wouldnt want to run gtx or pyb there. Nascar Joe Gibbs oils use mPao as base, so it is stable and keep viscosity ... Dont you guys kschanchin, OVERKILL and Garak understand examplification to make a point? Read the thread all over again, your trying to get the train after it arrived its destination ...
Originally Posted By: Pontual
My point is that the other way around also apply. The Lack of certification, doesnt mean RL isnt good oil. Nascar is pretty hard on the oil, you wouldnt want to run gtx or pyb there. Nascar Joe Gibbs oils use mPao as base, so it is stable and keep viscosity ... Dont you guys kschanchin, OVERKILL and Garak understand examplification to make a point? Read the thread all over again, your trying to get the train after it arrived its destination ...
Redline is not required for street driven vehicles, period.
Overrated oil sold on myth that POE oils high temperature oils required for jet engines is required for street vehicles.
Race oils are usually drained after each race and engines opened to check for damage. A race oil has less detergents etc and in most cases not suitable long term street use endurance.
OEM approved oils are always first and preferred choice in my view. What stuff are you feeding your brain to to sway away from that ?
BTW 1k posts doesn't qualify as a senior poster, the age of person can also be viewed like that. There is potential for any poster to post the same 2 points of view 500 times over in various threads (even if the views are not deemed correct) does that make the poster a senior poster ?
Even though Conoco Philips owns Redline Oils certification of some of the oils should be a priority and now with Conoco Philips there is no more excuses for this brand IMO.
My point is that the other way around also apply. The Lack of certification, doesnt mean RL isnt good oil. Nascar is pretty hard on the oil, you wouldnt want to run gtx or pyb there. Nascar Joe Gibbs oils use mPao as base, so it is stable and keep viscosity ... Dont you guys kschanchin, OVERKILL and Garak understand examplification to make a point? Read the thread all over again, your trying to get the train after it arrived its destination ...
Redline is not required for street driven vehicles, period.
Overrated oil sold on myth that POE oils high temperature oils required for jet engines is required for street vehicles.
Race oils are usually drained after each race and engines opened to check for damage. A race oil has less detergents etc and in most cases not suitable long term street use endurance.
OEM approved oils are always first and preferred choice in my view. What stuff are you feeding your brain to to sway away from that ?
BTW 1k posts doesn't qualify as a senior poster, the age of person can also be viewed like that. There is potential for any poster to post the same 2 points of view 500 times over in various threads (even if the views are not deemed correct) does that make the poster a senior poster ?
Even though Conoco Philips owns Redline Oils certification of some of the oils should be a priority and now with Conoco Philips there is no more excuses for this brand IMO.
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Alternatively, but much in line with what you mention, their current ownership would be a good marketing opportunity to push their suitability for non-stock high performance and racing applications. There's nothing wrong with being non-certified. However, people claiming they're better than a specified lube in an application with a defined specification, simply because they're not certified and must therefore be better, is a little off, to say the least.
the certification for the oil in my car requires ACEA C2 and noack below 10%, petrols require ACEA C3 and noack under 10%...
So should we strictly stick to Fiat 9.55535-S1 and 9.55535-S2?
why not find out whatever the spec is your engine requires and chose from there?
So should we strictly stick to Fiat 9.55535-S1 and 9.55535-S2?
why not find out whatever the spec is your engine requires and chose from there?
Check out their MSDS. To see what's left as full POE (euro s. for exemple?)
http://www.redlineoil.com/techinfo.aspx
Anyway, I personally don't like full POE as car engine oils, for seal-compatibility and hydrophilicity issues.
For race engines (rebuilt quite often, they say), they may be useful.
Certainly I don't like agressive, belitteling marketing.
For whom it may concern: another full POE race oil is the new Selenia Racing 10w60, see their MSDS.
http://www.redlineoil.com/techinfo.aspx
Anyway, I personally don't like full POE as car engine oils, for seal-compatibility and hydrophilicity issues.
For race engines (rebuilt quite often, they say), they may be useful.
Certainly I don't like agressive, belitteling marketing.
For whom it may concern: another full POE race oil is the new Selenia Racing 10w60, see their MSDS.
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As long as people are aware that an MSDS isn't a recipe, no problem.
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