Question about EV high performance vs everyday utility

[AZjeff]

It seems like 1/4 mile times and insane 0-60 times are highly publicized with EVs when in real life for 99% (whatever) of users that is a big SO. WHAT. Take family and friends out when it's new and give them the carnival ride then back to daily driving. Yeah merging and passing use acceleration but most all ICE vehicles do those well enough. Leaving the people out of the discussion who will drive anything they own hard because they enjoy it, talking John Q Driving Public typical usage.

My question is this: Would EVs have a more user friendly/useful set of abilities if these extreme power events weren't dialed in? Would EVs that mimic or even slightly exceed average ICE performance have better range and/or faster charging etc? I'm electrical challenged and don't know if high power electric motors are less efficient than smaller ones similar to how large powerful ICE engines use more gas than small ones. Is the high performance inherent to EV design with no effect on range etc?

 

[JeffKeryk]

Remember, the electric motor has a flat torque curve unlike the rpm dependent engine that requires a multi gear transmission to get it off the line, help with inefficient torque curve, fuel economy, etc. I tell people these cars are more quick than fast. Quick is where it's at for everyday driving. It's very much like my '68 Corvette 427 in 2nd gear, a little throttle and you are at the speed limit right now!

The thing I have come to appreciate is the charging, so cheap and no wasted time at gas stations. Now, my use case is perhaps extreme because electricity is a low cost, at-home energy source. I rarely use a Super Charger and when I do it is for 10 minutes or less. CA filthy expensive gas adds to the calculation. $50 to $100 a week is the norm around here...

Now, your results will vary; only you know if an EV is right for you. They are still new so we cannot say what longer term reliability, expense and feasibility will be. If you are considering an EV, the 1st question is how are you gonna charge? You might be surprised how many people ask that after the purchase. My insurance is low cost, but make sure you know how an EV will affect your rates!

Another point that is important to me: I love my Tundra and it ain't going nowhere! EVs are not for everyone. Prices have come down, so that's a plus, but any big expenditure should include a rigorous analysis.

 

[Twinturbski36]

Get into minor fender bender and its 8k to fix lol. Just ask pdr guys about dented rivians and Tesla.

 

[Kiwi_ME]

Not so much. The synchronous motors typically used (permanent magnet or electrically-excited rotors in most cases) have a relatively constant efficiency over the power/torque range, unlike ICE. Higher currents through the cells and electrical hardware do cause higher losses to the square power but higher voltage (e.g. 800V) mitigates that.

Most EVs are suited to normal usage and the Ford issue in the other thread is great example of what can happen when you press the envelope.

 

[PandaBear]

Most people use only 30hp cruising and probably 70hp accelerating gently. So people are shopping a lot of hypothetical concerns and safety on hp. In reality we are probably going to be safer spending the money on backup camera, dash cams, better tires, less distractions, buying a better visibility car, etc.

Electric motor, battery, inverters etc have relatively flat power and efficiency band unlike gas engine. Diesel has wider power band when combined with turbo too. This is why EV efficiency is actually higher at lower speed due to aerodynamic, whereas gas car you lose the engine efficiency at low speed but you gain some back at reduced air drag.

 

[PandaBear]

Get into minor fender bender and its 8k to fix lol. Just ask pdr guys about dented rivians and Tesla.

It is more about Tesla having horrible parts supply for repair and their small volume. Same for Rivian. If you buy a large volume EV that has the same body as another gas car (i.e. Prius Prime vs Prius regular), the repair cost on fender bender would be similar.

Same would likely be for exotic car from European even if they are gas, they are small volume and may not be designed for easy repair.

 

[y_p_w]

Not really. A lot is software controlled, and limits don’t necessarily affect routine performance or range if one chooses to drive that way.

There’s a lot that can theoretically be unleashed with software changes. Tesla reportedly ups the range for some vehicles if there’s an impending storm. Some hacks have improved performance that the equipment had always been capable of, not that I’d ever recommend it.

 

[djb]

The high performance cost very little extra in an EV designed for efficiency.

Consider house wiring or an extension cord. In almost every circumstance the wires are oversized for efficiency and minimal voltage drop. The same is true for the traction motor wiring.

The battery needs to support fast charging, which is more demanding than relatively brief hard acceleration.

This is unexpected to people with ICE background, where more potential power almost always means lower efficiency.

 

[PandaBear]

The high performance cost very little extra in an EV designed for efficiency.

Consider house wiring or an extension cord. In almost every circumstance the wires are oversized for efficiency and minimal voltage drop. The same is true for the traction motor wiring.

The battery needs to support fast charging, which is more demanding than relatively brief hard acceleration.

This is unexpected to people with ICE background, where more potential power almost always means lower efficiency.

Well said, I think the only thing they need to "beef up" for high performance in an already long range EV is from the motor inverters to the tires. They don't become less efficient when you overbuild them.

 

[barryh]

My question is this: Would EVs have a more user friendly/useful set of abilities if these extreme power events weren't dialed in? Would EVs that mimic or even slightly exceed average ICE performance have better range and/or faster charging etc? I'm electrical challenged and don't know if high power electric motors are less efficient than smaller ones similar to how large powerful ICE engines use more gas than small ones. Is the high performance inherent to EV design with no effect on range etc?

There has to be some efficiency downside to a high performance EV vs a lower performance EV with the same sized battery. The high performance EV would be heavier with a bigger motor, higher current rated cabling and control gear and possibly larger brakes. Whether that difference is of much significance is another question. I think it's safe to say the difference is far less than it would be when comparing high and lower performance IC engined cars.

I have to say I share your scepticism about the predominance of high performance EV's which after all are supposed to be the answer to saving the planet. Something with huge and unnecessary performance has already resulted in excessive emissions during manufacture even before it consumes more energy in use. Why do they do it ? because EV's are so stupidly expensive, they feel they need the high performance as a selling point. While EV's will resolve city centre emissions issues, they will do almost nothing to save the planet until they get a good deal more sensible.

 

[y_p_w]

There has to be some efficiency downside to a high performance EV vs a lower performance EV with the same sized battery. The high performance EV would be heavier with a bigger motor, higher current rated cabling and control gear and possibly larger brakes. Whether that difference is of much significance is another question. I think it's safe to say the difference is far less than it would be when comparing high and lower performance IC engined cars.

I have to say I share your scepticism about the predominance of high performance EV's which after all are supposed to be the answer to saving the planet. Something with huge and unnecessary performance has already resulted in excessive emissions during manufacture even before it consumes more energy in use. Why do they do it ? because EV's are so stupidly expensive, they feel they need the high performance as a selling point. While EV's will resolve city centre emissions issues, they will do almost nothing to save the planet until they get a good deal more sensible.

The physical equipment differences are often fairly small and in many cases the performance differences are primarily software enabled.

 

[RhondaHonda]

I have no idea but love my Model Y Performance for daily driving. The acceleration is not just a novelty. Merging and passing are awesome with this car, and most other quick EVs I’d imagine. No shifting, no throttle lag, just instant acceleration. 60-95 mph feels as quick as 0-35.

 

[Rand]

Most people use only 30hp cruising and probably 70hp accelerating gently.

Since HP is a function of RPM in some cars you could floor it and use 70hp too...until the RPMs jump up.

Torque*rpm/5252=hp

 

[AZjeff]

I have no idea but love my Model Y Performance for daily driving. The acceleration is not just a novelty. Merging and passing are awesome with this car, and most other quick EVs I’d imagine. No shifting, no throttle lag, just instant acceleration. 60-95 mph feels as quick as 0-35.

Would you be as in love with your Tesla if the acceleration was on par with other $50k SUVs? Again, most people will never feel the need to see how fast any car goes from 60-95.

 

[RhondaHonda]

Would you be as in love with your Tesla if the acceleration was on par with other $50k SUVs? Again, most people will never feel the need to see how fast any car goes from 60-95.

No. I likely drive faster than your average person and utilize the acceleration daily. I hate left lane slow drivers and pass on the right at some point if they refuse to move over. 60-95 and back down to 80-85 happens very quickly.

 

[UncleDave]

Would you be as in love with your Tesla if the acceleration was on par with other $50k SUVs? Again, most people will never feel the need to see how fast any car goes from 60-95.

The car wouldnt be as fun.
You can have all kinds of fun and stay under the limits.
A more reposnsive quicker and faster car even is simply a lot more fun.
Everyone merges onto a freeway.
Everyone needs to pass something.
Everyone needs to be in a a different lane at some point or other and its slow down and merge, or pass and merge but only if you've got the beans.
Being able to accelerate quickly gives you more options a driver.

Then if you want to go faster thats there as well.

 

[andrew_j]

It seems like 1/4 mile times and insane 0-60 times are highly publicized with EVs when in real life for 99% (whatever) of users that is a big SO. WHAT. Take family and friends out when it's new and give them the carnival ride then back to daily driving. Yeah merging and passing use acceleration but most all ICE vehicles do those well enough. Leaving the people out of the discussion who will drive anything they own hard because they enjoy it, talking John Q Driving Public typical usage.

My question is this: Would EVs have a more user friendly/useful set of abilities if these extreme power events weren't dialed in? Would EVs that mimic or even slightly exceed average ICE performance have better range and/or faster charging etc? I'm electrical challenged and don't know if high power electric motors are less efficient than smaller ones similar to how large powerful ICE engines use more gas than small ones. Is the high performance inherent to EV design with no effect on range etc?

Realistically base model Tesla 3 is pretty quick but not insane.

VW EVs RWD currently don’t have amazing 0-60 times (7.6 seconds).

The extra motors required for AWD offer incredible traction , torque and more HP and result in quick 0-60.

 

[Ws6]

It seems like 1/4 mile times and insane 0-60 times are highly publicized with EVs when in real life for 99% (whatever) of users that is a big SO. WHAT. Take family and friends out when it's new and give them the carnival ride then back to daily driving. Yeah merging and passing use acceleration but most all ICE vehicles do those well enough. Leaving the people out of the discussion who will drive anything they own hard because they enjoy it, talking John Q Driving Public typical usage.

My question is this: Would EVs have a more user friendly/useful set of abilities if these extreme power events weren't dialed in? Would EVs that mimic or even slightly exceed average ICE performance have better range and/or faster charging etc? I'm electrical challenged and don't know if high power electric motors are less efficient than smaller ones similar to how large powerful ICE engines use more gas than small ones. Is the high performance inherent to EV design with no effect on range etc?

I guess a little? I have an ev6 GT and also had am ev6 Wind for a week or so as a loaner. They produced similar efficiency of 3.5ish mi/kwh. The motors in my GT are larger, or at least the rear one is, but by and large, if you drive it sensibly, there is not much real difference.

 

[Ws6]

Would you be as in love with your Tesla if the acceleration was on par with other $50k SUVs? Again, most people will never feel the need to see how fast any car goes from 60-95.

I wouldn't buy a slow EV. For what? Why? Thats like choosing to be poor or something. Noone but a monk is into it.

 

[Ws6]

The high performance cost very little extra in an EV designed for efficiency.

Consider house wiring or an extension cord. In almost every circumstance the wires are oversized for efficiency and minimal voltage drop. The same is true for the traction motor wiring.

The battery needs to support fast charging, which is more demanding than relatively brief hard acceleration.

This is unexpected to people with ICE background, where more potential power almost always means lower efficiency.

Nah, look at the Mach E. They melt down because of flooring them too much, mot fast charging.