Op, what is your budget?
Also, any response or thoughts to my long post on page 5?
Also, any response or thoughts to my long post on page 5?
PPS or PPK for a 1st gun?
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Bubba: My budget is probably around $600 - $700
And yes, Thanks for your very detailed post. I read it, but didn't have time to write a peoper answer until today. (was at work, extra shifts, etc - cannot use bitog on work PCs)
I will probably want a pistol for now, as I intend to do a CC course and someday use it as a CC weapon. I don't feel comfortable, as a newb, to own a long gun/shot gun/rife at the moment. Perhaps something for later.
I will take your advice on a full size 9mm rather than a compact, and if I feel it is unsuitable for when I graduate to CC status, I will sell it and buy a different, more suitable CC gun.
I will start looking into full size 9mm guns. (thanks for the list of suggestions you provided)
And I do want (like you suggested) a gun with an accessory rail so I can mount a light and/or laser.
Training:
At first, I won't get EXTENSIVE training, as my "mentor" will be away most of the time, but I will have friends who will help with getting a decent amount of practice in the meantime, to familiarize myself with the gun I eventually buy.
When the SF mentor is back again, I will mention to him what you mentioned, about more extensive training and malfunction drills.
However, I will make sure that I get the dude to show me how to clear a jammed gun, etc.
Thanks again!
And yes, Thanks for your very detailed post. I read it, but didn't have time to write a peoper answer until today. (was at work, extra shifts, etc - cannot use bitog on work PCs)
I will probably want a pistol for now, as I intend to do a CC course and someday use it as a CC weapon. I don't feel comfortable, as a newb, to own a long gun/shot gun/rife at the moment. Perhaps something for later.
I will take your advice on a full size 9mm rather than a compact, and if I feel it is unsuitable for when I graduate to CC status, I will sell it and buy a different, more suitable CC gun.
I will start looking into full size 9mm guns. (thanks for the list of suggestions you provided)
And I do want (like you suggested) a gun with an accessory rail so I can mount a light and/or laser.
Training:
At first, I won't get EXTENSIVE training, as my "mentor" will be away most of the time, but I will have friends who will help with getting a decent amount of practice in the meantime, to familiarize myself with the gun I eventually buy.
When the SF mentor is back again, I will mention to him what you mentioned, about more extensive training and malfunction drills.
However, I will make sure that I get the dude to show me how to clear a jammed gun, etc.
Thanks again!
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I really can't see how you can make a mistake in going with a Glock 17 or 19 for the needs you've outlined. They are the AK-47 of handguns. Simple, rugged, and very cost effective. It will leave you with plenty of money left over for ammunition.
Thanks.
Looks like the P99 is also in the same price range...
Any feedback on a G17 vs a P99?
Looks like the P99 is also in the same price range...
Any feedback on a G17 vs a P99?
The Walther P99 is a world class pistol. So is the Glock 17. Can't really go wrong with either as both should be perfectly reliable and are excellent quality.
If I was going with Walther, my preference would be for the PPQ M2 which is sorta an improved P99. The PPQ has the American style magazine release while the P99 has the funky European style trigger guard magazine release.
I'd still add a tactical shotgun to the mix. Here is a brand new tactical shotgun for $205. Your friend should be able to run you through some shotgun and pistol drills when he is available. https://grabagun.com/maverick-88-12-18-5-cyl-bead-sight.html
If I was going with Walther, my preference would be for the PPQ M2 which is sorta an improved P99. The PPQ has the American style magazine release while the P99 has the funky European style trigger guard magazine release.
I'd still add a tactical shotgun to the mix. Here is a brand new tactical shotgun for $205. Your friend should be able to run you through some shotgun and pistol drills when he is available. https://grabagun.com/maverick-88-12-18-5-cyl-bead-sight.html
Originally Posted By: 97tbird
Thanks.
Looks like the P99 is also in the same price range...
Any feedback on a G17 vs a P99?
The one thing the P99 has going for it, especially with the AS trigger system is that it has a second stike capability on a lazy primer. If you pull the trigger on a Glock and it does not go off, you cannot pull the trigger again. You need to rack the slide to cock the striker. On a P99AS, it reverts to a double action pull. The P99 also has a decocking button if that suits your fancy.
Now if you get an older glock it will not have the interchangeable grips to custom fit your hand. But if the glock feels good from the get go, that is a non issue.
I would look at the Steyr M series pistols as well. I could not afford a Walther P99 when I was looking and they were hard to find, so I went Steyr over Glock because I liked the sites better and the gun fit my hand more comfortably. The man who designed the M series worked with Gaston Glock before moving on to Steyr.
Thanks.
Looks like the P99 is also in the same price range...
Any feedback on a G17 vs a P99?
The one thing the P99 has going for it, especially with the AS trigger system is that it has a second stike capability on a lazy primer. If you pull the trigger on a Glock and it does not go off, you cannot pull the trigger again. You need to rack the slide to cock the striker. On a P99AS, it reverts to a double action pull. The P99 also has a decocking button if that suits your fancy.
Now if you get an older glock it will not have the interchangeable grips to custom fit your hand. But if the glock feels good from the get go, that is a non issue.
I would look at the Steyr M series pistols as well. I could not afford a Walther P99 when I was looking and they were hard to find, so I went Steyr over Glock because I liked the sites better and the gun fit my hand more comfortably. The man who designed the M series worked with Gaston Glock before moving on to Steyr.
Bubba / Roben:
I tried reading and watching many reviews of the AS trigger of the P99, and it confused the heck out of me. I have since been leaning towards the PPQ to put in my potentials list... (I know it has a very light SA trigger: 5 lb or so?)
Also: I thnk PPQ has a regular rail (picatinny) vs the P99 which has a weaver style rail...
Also, as this is my 1st gun, will the paddle style mag release matter that much? I have read a lot of reports that with the PPQ M2 / US style mag release you need to rotate/alter your grip a bit on the gun to operate it, but not so with paddle style?
Roben: will look into Steyr.
I tried reading and watching many reviews of the AS trigger of the P99, and it confused the heck out of me. I have since been leaning towards the PPQ to put in my potentials list... (I know it has a very light SA trigger: 5 lb or so?)
Also: I thnk PPQ has a regular rail (picatinny) vs the P99 which has a weaver style rail...
Also, as this is my 1st gun, will the paddle style mag release matter that much? I have read a lot of reports that with the PPQ M2 / US style mag release you need to rotate/alter your grip a bit on the gun to operate it, but not so with paddle style?
Roben: will look into Steyr.
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Originally Posted By: 97tbird
Also, as this is my 1st gun, will the paddle style mag release matter that much? I have read a lot of reports that with the PPQ M2 / US style mag release you need to rotate/alter your grip a bit on the gun to operate it, but not so with paddle style?
As I'm sure you are aware, most pistols will have a normal button to release the magazine. You will have to adjust your grip on most pistols to activate the button. This is normal. I think most US shooters would prefer the US style mag release. Although either work fine if you get used to them.
The PPQ M1 version comes with the paddle release while the PPQ M2 version comes with the us style button release.
http://grabagun.com/walther-ppq-m1-9mm-4-pstl-wa-15r.html
http://grabagun.com/walther-ppq-m2-9mm-4-15rd-blk-pol-fs.html
To throw another monkey wrench into the mix, if you like the P99 AS, the Canik TP9v2 is a $320 clone of the P99 AS. It's an EXCELLENT pistol for budget minded shooters. I'd go so far as to say that it's the best high capacity polymer 9mm pistol you can buy under $400-450. It compares quite favorably to the $500-650 Glock and Walther pistols.
https://www.classicfirearms.com/tp9-v2-sa-black-new-model-18rd-hg3352n
Also, as this is my 1st gun, will the paddle style mag release matter that much? I have read a lot of reports that with the PPQ M2 / US style mag release you need to rotate/alter your grip a bit on the gun to operate it, but not so with paddle style?
As I'm sure you are aware, most pistols will have a normal button to release the magazine. You will have to adjust your grip on most pistols to activate the button. This is normal. I think most US shooters would prefer the US style mag release. Although either work fine if you get used to them.
The PPQ M1 version comes with the paddle release while the PPQ M2 version comes with the us style button release.
http://grabagun.com/walther-ppq-m1-9mm-4-pstl-wa-15r.html
http://grabagun.com/walther-ppq-m2-9mm-4-15rd-blk-pol-fs.html
To throw another monkey wrench into the mix, if you like the P99 AS, the Canik TP9v2 is a $320 clone of the P99 AS. It's an EXCELLENT pistol for budget minded shooters. I'd go so far as to say that it's the best high capacity polymer 9mm pistol you can buy under $400-450. It compares quite favorably to the $500-650 Glock and Walther pistols.
https://www.classicfirearms.com/tp9-v2-sa-black-new-model-18rd-hg3352n
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
The one thing the P99 has going for it, especially with the AS trigger system is that it has a second stike capability on a lazy primer.
From the training I've received, second strike capability is a moot point in most cases. If you pull the trigger and there's no bang, you do NOT spend time trying to snap that around again. Tap the mag, rack the slide, and try to go bang again. Seconds spent trying to get a lazy round to fire are seconds you don't likely have if you have to use your gun in a defensive situation.
I used to have a few SA/DA pistols because I liked that idea, but I've since moved to striker platforms (Smith M&Ps) because I was being taught to not strike the round again anyway.
Has your training been to try lazy rounds two or three times? I don't ask that in a confrontational manner, but with genuine interest.
The one thing the P99 has going for it, especially with the AS trigger system is that it has a second stike capability on a lazy primer.
From the training I've received, second strike capability is a moot point in most cases. If you pull the trigger and there's no bang, you do NOT spend time trying to snap that around again. Tap the mag, rack the slide, and try to go bang again. Seconds spent trying to get a lazy round to fire are seconds you don't likely have if you have to use your gun in a defensive situation.
I used to have a few SA/DA pistols because I liked that idea, but I've since moved to striker platforms (Smith M&Ps) because I was being taught to not strike the round again anyway.
Has your training been to try lazy rounds two or three times? I don't ask that in a confrontational manner, but with genuine interest.
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Walther PPQ M2 for full size (Guns & Ammo Magazine's Handgun of the Year for 2015).
Walther PPS for compact.
I have the PPS in .40S&W. Little snappy in recoil but not bad, and that was firing Remington Golden Saber BJHP 165gr and Hornady XTP JHP 155gr which are both fairly hot loads. Haven't fired any 180gr FMJ/TMJ practice ammo through it yet.
The PPS shoots like a larger gun than it is. Feels like a smaller lighter version of my Glock 21SF .45ACP. Take down for field strip/clean is same as the Glock.
Prices on PPS were around the $350 range a few weeks ago.
PPS in .40S&W caliber would be fine for home defense. Using some of the ammo by Underwood or Buffalo Bore, power is similar to some .45ACP offerings from the mainline ammo companies. Subtract around 100fps for the shorter barrel.
http://www.ballistics101.com/40_caliber_sw.php
http://www.ballistics101.com/45_acp.php
Walther PPS for compact.
I have the PPS in .40S&W. Little snappy in recoil but not bad, and that was firing Remington Golden Saber BJHP 165gr and Hornady XTP JHP 155gr which are both fairly hot loads. Haven't fired any 180gr FMJ/TMJ practice ammo through it yet.
The PPS shoots like a larger gun than it is. Feels like a smaller lighter version of my Glock 21SF .45ACP. Take down for field strip/clean is same as the Glock.
Prices on PPS were around the $350 range a few weeks ago.
PPS in .40S&W caliber would be fine for home defense. Using some of the ammo by Underwood or Buffalo Bore, power is similar to some .45ACP offerings from the mainline ammo companies. Subtract around 100fps for the shorter barrel.
http://www.ballistics101.com/40_caliber_sw.php
http://www.ballistics101.com/45_acp.php
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
The one thing the P99 has going for it, especially with the AS trigger system is that it has a second stike capability on a lazy primer.
From the training I've received, second strike capability is a moot point in most cases. If you pull the trigger and there's no bang, you do NOT spend time trying to snap that around again. Tap the mag, rack the slide, and try to go bang again. Seconds spent trying to get a lazy round to fire are seconds you don't likely have if you have to use your gun in a defensive situation.
I used to have a few SA/DA pistols because I liked that idea, but I've since moved to striker platforms (Smith M&Ps) because I was being taught to not strike the round again anyway.
Has your training been to try lazy rounds two or three times? I don't ask that in a confrontational manner, but with genuine interest.
I have never spent "seconds" pulling a trigger a second time. And I have had it work on my Beretta. But to each his own.
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
The one thing the P99 has going for it, especially with the AS trigger system is that it has a second stike capability on a lazy primer.
From the training I've received, second strike capability is a moot point in most cases. If you pull the trigger and there's no bang, you do NOT spend time trying to snap that around again. Tap the mag, rack the slide, and try to go bang again. Seconds spent trying to get a lazy round to fire are seconds you don't likely have if you have to use your gun in a defensive situation.
I used to have a few SA/DA pistols because I liked that idea, but I've since moved to striker platforms (Smith M&Ps) because I was being taught to not strike the round again anyway.
Has your training been to try lazy rounds two or three times? I don't ask that in a confrontational manner, but with genuine interest.
I have never spent "seconds" pulling a trigger a second time. And I have had it work on my Beretta. But to each his own.
Check out GTdist.com the online store for GT Distributors. ( I don't work for them or know anyone who does, just a loyal customer)
I have bought 4 Glocks from their Austin, TX location. They also have a location in Rossville, GA. I'm not sure how far that is away from you in NC.
GT Dist has first class service and extremely knowledgeable staff. They primarily cater to Law Enforcement, but sell to civilians online and in their brick and mortar store.
They offer very competitive civilian prices and discounts (depending on brand) for LE, EMS, and Fire. If you are a first responder (or know one who qualifies), Glock's Blue Label program can get you into a Glock 43 for $358 and a Glock 17/19/26 w/ 3 mags for $398 the last time I checked. Glock OEM nite sites for only $54 extra I believe also.
With those prices, you can get two 9mm pistols for slightly above your budget. One for CC and one for HD.
If you don't like Glock's triggers, check out Ghost Triggers for Glocks.
What's nice about their stores is that they have (at least in Austin, TX) a HUGE selection and your can see how the different models/brands fit.
They also have an extensive selection of LE Duty ammo. Speer, Federal and Hornady. I stocked up on 50rd boxes of +p and +p+ loads of assorted grains of Gold Dot, HST and old school Hydra Shok a few years ago from them.
A coworker used to own a PPK .380. He said that gun would jam all the time and was junk. I don't know much about PPK's, but Glock's are universally known for their reliability.
Good luck and let us know what you purchase.
I have bought 4 Glocks from their Austin, TX location. They also have a location in Rossville, GA. I'm not sure how far that is away from you in NC.
GT Dist has first class service and extremely knowledgeable staff. They primarily cater to Law Enforcement, but sell to civilians online and in their brick and mortar store.
They offer very competitive civilian prices and discounts (depending on brand) for LE, EMS, and Fire. If you are a first responder (or know one who qualifies), Glock's Blue Label program can get you into a Glock 43 for $358 and a Glock 17/19/26 w/ 3 mags for $398 the last time I checked. Glock OEM nite sites for only $54 extra I believe also.
With those prices, you can get two 9mm pistols for slightly above your budget. One for CC and one for HD.
If you don't like Glock's triggers, check out Ghost Triggers for Glocks.
What's nice about their stores is that they have (at least in Austin, TX) a HUGE selection and your can see how the different models/brands fit.
They also have an extensive selection of LE Duty ammo. Speer, Federal and Hornady. I stocked up on 50rd boxes of +p and +p+ loads of assorted grains of Gold Dot, HST and old school Hydra Shok a few years ago from them.
A coworker used to own a PPK .380. He said that gun would jam all the time and was junk. I don't know much about PPK's, but Glock's are universally known for their reliability.
Good luck and let us know what you purchase.
OP: I have had both a PPK/S (interarms) and the PPS. Between those two: PPS hands down. No question in my mind. I trust it completely.
I could not get a comfortable hold on the PPK/S and it would beat up my hand in 20-40 rounds. It made range time not so fun. Also, who wants to track down 380? A PPS in 9 is easier and less expensive to feed. I still have my PPS, but the PPK/S has been sold if that means anything.
Only advantage to the PPK is if you run out of ammo and need to use it as a bludgeon
I could not get a comfortable hold on the PPK/S and it would beat up my hand in 20-40 rounds. It made range time not so fun. Also, who wants to track down 380? A PPS in 9 is easier and less expensive to feed. I still have my PPS, but the PPK/S has been sold if that means anything.
Only advantage to the PPK is if you run out of ammo and need to use it as a bludgeon
I have a Weather CCP 9mm that I purchased from CDNN Sports for $399.00 Perfect size for concealed carry, and ammo at a reasonable price.
I also purchased a Walther PPX 9mm that was clearance priced for $279.00. I bought some extra clips because the gun has been discontinued. Fantastic, simple, ergonomically thought out gun for my needs. You cannot beat that price for getting fine German engineering.
That are other guns that might work too - take a look at Springfield XDS line or Ruger which is American made.
Take a look at gun broker.com or CDNNSPORTS.com for a good selection. Most guys I talk to either have the 9mm or the .45 caliber guns. Some have the .40, but I feel that you can get about the same performance from a 9mm which much cheaper ammo.
Good luck!
I also purchased a Walther PPX 9mm that was clearance priced for $279.00. I bought some extra clips because the gun has been discontinued. Fantastic, simple, ergonomically thought out gun for my needs. You cannot beat that price for getting fine German engineering.
That are other guns that might work too - take a look at Springfield XDS line or Ruger which is American made.
Take a look at gun broker.com or CDNNSPORTS.com for a good selection. Most guys I talk to either have the 9mm or the .45 caliber guns. Some have the .40, but I feel that you can get about the same performance from a 9mm which much cheaper ammo.
Good luck!
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The .40 not only out performs the 9mm, with some loads it hits as hard as a .45ACP in the foot pounds department. Guys have taken down bears with the 10mm and remember the .40s&w is "a 10mm short", designed some years ago specially for the FBI.
And .380ACP is called 9mm short by the Europeans... Doesn't make it just as good. Also i think that the whole of what people say is "10mm short and weak".
Nothing against .40, but you can't imply it's the same as 10mm.
Nothing against .40, but you can't imply it's the same as 10mm.
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No where did I imply that the .40S&W is equivalent to 10mm, simply that it is basically a 10mm short. Short and weak? That comes from the 10mm guys to make themselves feel better about clinging to a round that will eventually be forgotten into history. Finding 10mm on the shelves is about like trying to find .38 spl these days.
So, I guess muzzle energy or lack thereof is what you are referring to when you use the term weak?
Let's look at some manufacturer's ballistics data.
http://www.ballistics101.com/40_caliber_sw.php
http://www.ballistics101.com/45_acp.php
Out of the 109 .45ACP loads listed, only two, from RBCD, exceed the muzzle energy of the top performer in the list of 127 .40S&W loads. Further, 42 out of 109 or 39% of the .45ACP loads come in below 400 ft-lb, whereas only 31 out of 127 or 25% of .40S&W loads come in below 400 lb-ft from the muzzle. Weak? Really? The .45 loads will retain more energy down range but most defensive shootings occur inside the 7 yard line.
Based on the above, .40S&W looks like it holds it's own very admirably next to the widely accepted self-defense King, .45ACP. I am not disparaging .45 in any way. I have two. Just trying to clear up some misconceptions or perhaps... smearing... of the hard working .40S&W !!
So, I guess muzzle energy or lack thereof is what you are referring to when you use the term weak?
Let's look at some manufacturer's ballistics data.
http://www.ballistics101.com/40_caliber_sw.php
http://www.ballistics101.com/45_acp.php
Out of the 109 .45ACP loads listed, only two, from RBCD, exceed the muzzle energy of the top performer in the list of 127 .40S&W loads. Further, 42 out of 109 or 39% of the .45ACP loads come in below 400 ft-lb, whereas only 31 out of 127 or 25% of .40S&W loads come in below 400 lb-ft from the muzzle. Weak? Really? The .45 loads will retain more energy down range but most defensive shootings occur inside the 7 yard line.
Based on the above, .40S&W looks like it holds it's own very admirably next to the widely accepted self-defense King, .45ACP. I am not disparaging .45 in any way. I have two. Just trying to clear up some misconceptions or perhaps... smearing... of the hard working .40S&W !!
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