NRA's Announcement of Gun Violence in Schools

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worl...wprss=rss_world

The only problem is that Israel actually has quite strong gun restrictions and very low gun ownership rates, some of the lowest in the developed world. This confusion has gotten so bad that even Israeli government officials are now chiming in to knock back the claims, though the NRA is seen as a close ally of the U.S. Republican party, which positions itself as strongly backing Israel.......

A spokesperson for the Israeli Foreign Ministry told the New York Daily News that this was simply wrong. “We didn’t have a series of school shootings, and they had nothing to do with the issue at hand in the United States. We had to deal with terrorism,” he said. “What removed the danger was not the armed guards but an overall anti-terror policy and anti-terror operations which brought street terrorism down to nearly zero over a number of years.”

Israel limits gun ownership to security workers, people who transport valuables or explosives, residents of the West Bank, and hunters. People who don’t fall into one of those categories cannot obtain a firearm permit. Moreover, Israel rejects 40 percent of firearm permit applicants, the highest rejection rate in the Western world. Both Switzerland and Israel require yearly (or more frequent) permit renewals to insure that the reasons are still applicable.

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/07/...n-violence-down

However, once those soldiers finish their service two or three years later, they are subject to civilian gun control regulations that are much stricter than American laws.

In Israel, assault rifles are banned except for special circumstances, such as communal self-defense in areas deemed to be a security risk.

Unlike in the United States, where the right to bear arms is guaranteed in the Constitution’s Second Amendment, Israel’s department of public security considers gun ownership a privilege, not a right. Gun owners in Israel are limited to owning one pistol, and must undergo extensive mental and physical tests before they can receive a weapon, and gun owners are limited to 50 rounds of ammunition per year.

Not all Israelis, however, may own guns. In order to own a pistol, an Israeli must for two years have been either a captain in the army or a former lieutenant colonel. Israelis with an equivalent rank in other security organizations may also own a pistol.
 
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Originally Posted By: Mystic
Now d00df00d you are probably a young man. I have lived a long time. I have seen a lot of changes. As you get older you might notice how things have either gotten worse in your area or better.


I would say this is one of the most arrogant, presumptuous, condescending statements you've made. Except for all the others. Shame that in your "long life", you have yet to gain the wisdom to abstain for making such remarks.
 
So Israel has plenty of 18+ year olds walking around with fully automatic weapons, and "communal self-defense areas" are also allowed to have guns, and yet they have a murder rate of 2.1 per 100,000?

What is the murder rate in the West Bank where guns are allowed?


Quote:
The terrorists infiltrated Makor Haim, a kibbutz, sneaking into the main building of its high school seminary, run by world-renowned Talmudist, Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz. The terrorists entered a library room where seven of the boarding school's counselors were meeting. Dressed as security guards, and armed with a knife and what appeared to be a gun -- it later turned out to be a toy -- ordered the seven to line up on one side of the room. A counselor, realizing they were terrorists, drew his personal firearm and opened fire. Another grabbed the fake gun from the other terrorist, wrestled him to the floor, while the first counselor shot him. The terrorists managed to stab two of the counselors before falling dead.

http://israelinsider.com/Articles1/Security/12596.htm
 
I have put a couple of people here on my ignore list, to try to stop the continuous attacks on me. I no longer see their posts. I am glad to see this discussion continuing inspite of some disruption.

In this situation right here armed security certainly paid off. The terrorists had a fake handgun but if people really had done as they said to do and line up against the wall they would have been attacked and possibly killed by the terrorists.

Of course, in the USA if school administration in various areas does not allow armed security ways will have to be found to defend students and staff without the use of armed security.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
So Israel has plenty of 18+ year olds walking around with fully automatic weapons, and "communal self-defense areas" are also allowed to have guns, and yet they have a murder rate of 2.1 per 100,000?


In Israel, assault rifles are banned except for special circumstances, such as communal self-defense in areas deemed to be a security risk.

Guess you missed that part.

This part too.
Gun owners in Israel are limited to owning one pistol, and must undergo extensive mental and physical tests before they can receive a weapon, and gun owners are limited to 50 rounds of ammunition per year.

And this: Whereas Americans laws privilege free access to guns and then restrict them from there, Israeli laws, Rosenbaum writes, “are designed to keep amateurs from carrying guns in the street — even amateurs who have served 3 years in the army.

And this: “Ten years ago, when Israel had the outbreak of violence, there was an expansion of gun ownership, but only to people above a certain rank in the military,” she said. “There was no sense that having ordinary citizens [carry guns] would make anything safer.” That’s the Israeli thinking,

In order to own a pistol, an Israeli must for two years have been either a captain in the army or a former lieutenant colonel. Israelis with an equivalent rank in other security organizations may also own a pistol.

So where are these 18 year olds with "fully automatic" weapons? Outside of the military.

The NRA is foolish to use Israel as an example. Especially as they would oppose the steps Israel took.
 
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You know Trajan, we all know you are far left anit-gun person. That the only stories you hear about guns in the news are usually negative. They never tell the stories about when guns save a life. I also asked you a question before that you never responded to in the thread that was locked. How would you defend your and you family agianst a person with a gun? Would you defend this misguided opinion of firearms by allowing your family to be a statistic? Or would you point a legal concealed carry handgun at the bad guy and pull the trigger? If you answer no you wouldn't pull the trigger then you sir are a liar or in need of a good mental health program.
 
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MuzzleFlash40 I have no idea what Trajan said in his post because I have put him on my ignore list. And I am not going to read his posts. But thanks for your input.

I don't have a problem with somebody being anti-gun. Everybody is entitled to their own beliefs. But if somebody is anti-gun they could still contribute to this discussion in a positive manner if they would bring up ways to defend school children without the use of armed guards. If somebody merely argues against armed guards in schools what is their contribution to the discussion?

It is possible that various school district adminstrations will not allow teachers to conceal carry. But maybe those school districts would still allow armed police or sheriff deputies in schools if the police department or sheriff's department would do so without cost to the school district. We used to have programs like that here that were called DARE programs.

And there are various other things that can be done to secure schools such as making it harder to get in and training for teachers, administrators, and students.
 
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Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40
How would you defend your and you family agianst a person with a gun? Would you defend this misguided opinion of firearms by allowing your family to be a statistic? Or would you point a legal concealed carry handgun at the bad guy and pull the trigger? If you answer no you wouldn't pull the trigger then you sir are a liar or in need of a good mental health program.


You could let them take your money/etc and leave. The point of most crimes is not to kill someone - its for drugs or money or whatever. If someone really wants you dead - good luck defending yourself. Heat of the moment / passion / etc - adding another gun to the mix does not always make for a better outcome.
Gun / anti-gun can really be thought of as religious - each side has their own belief.

If you look at the chance of you getting attacked / robbed / etc or the victim of a public shooting vs the likelihood that you will die in a car accident or of heart disease...
YOU WOULD STOP DRIVING YOUR CAR, PUT DOWN YOUR BURGER AND NEVER LEAVE YOUR HOUSE.

This whole 'debate' is so overblown on each side. Its not life or death each time you leave your house - its a horrible freaking tragedy that has an incredibly small chance of happening to you. I prefer to spend my time on things that make me happy and not worrying about the bad things in this world.

I blame the media. 24 hours is a lot of time to fill. Please stop watching and they will not have a voice anymore.
 
Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40
How would you defend your and you family agianst a person with a gun? Would you defend this misguided opinion of firearms by allowing your family to be a statistic? Or would you point a legal concealed carry handgun at the bad guy and pull the trigger? If you answer no you wouldn't pull the trigger then you sir are a liar or in need of a good mental health program.



You, "sir", should follow your last four words. You need it. And you're either a liar if you say you don't, or are unable to realize that you do.
 
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Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40
You know Trajan, we all know you are far left anit-gun person.

No, we don't. He posted about owning a gun and about pointing a gun at a person. Guess you missed that.
 
Originally Posted By: Mystic
I have put a couple of people here on my ignore list, to try to stop the continuous attacks on me.

Apology accepted.
 
Originally Posted By: surfstar
You could let them take your money/etc and leave. The point of most crimes is not to kill someone - its for drugs or money or whatever. If someone really wants you dead - good luck defending yourself. Heat of the moment / passion / etc - adding another gun to the mix does not always make for a better outcome.
Gun / anti-gun can really be thought of as religious - each side has their own belief.

If you look at the chance of you getting attacked / robbed / etc or the victim of a public shooting vs the likelihood that you will die in a car accident or of heart disease...
YOU WOULD STOP DRIVING YOUR CAR, PUT DOWN YOUR BURGER AND NEVER LEAVE YOUR HOUSE.

This whole 'debate' is so overblown on each side. Its not life or death each time you leave your house - its a horrible freaking tragedy that has an incredibly small chance of happening to you. I prefer to spend my time on things that make me happy and not worrying about the bad things in this world.

I blame the media. 24 hours is a lot of time to fill. Please stop watching and they will not have a voice anymore.

Very well said.
thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40
You know Trajan, we all know you are far left anit-gun person.

No, we don't. He posted about owning a gun and about pointing a gun at a person. Guess you missed that.


Doesn't fit his agenda. Only reads what is convienent.

2 Mosin Nagant 91/30 7.62x54

1 Marlin .22 carbine

1 Beretta CX-4 Storm .40 and a 96G .40 pistol to go with it. (Magazines are interchangable.)

1 Serbian AK-47 7.62x39

1 Yugoslavian SKS 7.62x39 w/grenade launcher (I use golf balls.)

1 Smith & Wesson .44 Magnum with 8 3/4 barrel
 
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Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Mystic
I have put a couple of people here on my ignore list, to try to stop the continuous attacks on me.

Apology accepted.


Now if he'd stop making them, he wouldn't receive them
smile.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: surfstar
You could let them take your money/etc and leave. The point of most crimes is not to kill someone - its for drugs or money or whatever. If someone really wants you dead - good luck defending yourself. Heat of the moment / passion / etc - adding another gun to the mix does not always make for a better outcome.
Gun / anti-gun can really be thought of as religious - each side has their own belief.

If you look at the chance of you getting attacked / robbed / etc or the victim of a public shooting vs the likelihood that you will die in a car accident or of heart disease...
YOU WOULD STOP DRIVING YOUR CAR, PUT DOWN YOUR BURGER AND NEVER LEAVE YOUR HOUSE.

This whole 'debate' is so overblown on each side. Its not life or death each time you leave your house - its a horrible freaking tragedy that has an incredibly small chance of happening to you. I prefer to spend my time on things that make me happy and not worrying about the bad things in this world.

I blame the media. 24 hours is a lot of time to fill. Please stop watching and they will not have a voice anymore.

Very well said.
thumbsup2.gif



I agree. Been robbed at gunpoint too when working at a 7/11 type store. He got the money, he got arrested two days later. Me? I went to have my chest pain checked out, found an aneurysm on the heartwall I didn't know about. So, win win!!!
 
Originally Posted By: surfstar
Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40
How would you defend your and you family agianst a person with a gun? Would you defend this misguided opinion of firearms by allowing your family to be a statistic? Or would you point a legal concealed carry handgun at the bad guy and pull the trigger? If you answer no you wouldn't pull the trigger then you sir are a liar or in need of a good mental health program.


You could let them take your money/etc and leave. The point of most crimes is not to kill someone - its for drugs or money or whatever.


That is wishful thinking, I guess if he wanted to violate your wife or family member that would be ok as well? No, you would pull the trigger. Our Jail has quit a few people that are in for murder and their crime started out as robbery, and because they were on drugs or whatever it ended in murder. I've seen people killed over a candy bar. So don't pretend to even begin to tell me that you know better than I do how visous some criminals can be I deal with them every day. I can't even tell you how many inmates I have encountered on the streets while out with my family that remembered me from their stay in jail. Some don't say anything, some do. Think I should let him attack my family because he has a grudge agianst me because we had to use force on him while he was there.

Back on topic, no matter what we do bad guys will have guns. There is no other way to stop a gunman in a school without having someone in there to meet him on equal footing. No way around that. My wife told me that they are talking about it here, and she is one of the teachers that will be trained if the state allowes it. It makes me feel better knowing that if they don't agree to put an armed guard in the school, someone will be there to protect my wife and the children.
 
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I really think that if schools did a good job teaching basic probability and statistics, we would be living in a very different world...
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I really think that if schools did a good job teaching basic probability and statistics, we would be living in a very different world...


I guess it depends on which side of the "statistics" you would rather be on. I would rather have a gun and never need it than the other way around. Same goes for the schools, we live in a different world than even 10 years ago. Kids are being taught violance at such a young age.
 
When I said "statistics," I didn't mean schools should tell people what numbers are out there. I meant they should educate people about how valid numbers are gathered and how to interpret them. It would cut out a lot of the bull on both sides of arguments like this one.

I guess I should have said "statistical methods" instead of "statistics."
 
More people die from fists and hammers/clubs every year than all rifles according to the FBI.

And I am pro gun because I was beaten half to death by men with aluminum baseball bats. They beat me and THEN took my wallet.

Dave Grossman, who teaches at West Point, has determined roughly 2% of the human population are predatory. To think they are only after money is truly wishful thinking.
 
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