NHTSA: Wash your vehicle!

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Silverado12

As a commercial truck driver, IMO the salt is a necessary evil. A big truck is extremely squirrely empty in the snow, and loaded not much better. Unfortunately, we would have to stop commerce in the Northeast if the roads aren't treated well enough for a big truck to pass. It's just too dangerous, but I do see your point. I'm glad I'm out of the rust belt where my car was junk after 5 years. That was years ago, though.

Salt is not necessary. There are other chemicals that can be used just as effectively that aren't corrosive, but they won't use them...

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: grampi
There are other chemicals that can be used just as effectively that aren't corrosive, but they won't use them...


Why won't they use them?

 

[grampi]

They claim they're more expensive, but I bet it's still less expensive than it would be for them if they were forced (through law suits) to pay for all the damage salt does to everyone's vehicles.

 

[rjundi]

I always thought undercarriage wash was silly waste of money at a automatic carwash.

I do use automatic carwashes(Basic one) when the salt on doors of vehicle starts rubbing onto my clothing.

The carwash stock if it exists just went up!!!!

 

[supton]

I don't wash my Jetta, and it is about the same worse on top as it is bottom. Go figure, at least one OEM has half a clue to the problem. few bucks goes a long ways.

That said, I plan to spray oil on mine, cheap and easy. Not sure what car washes are open up here i winter, and I dont need a skating rink or mud pit in my yard.

 

[MNgopher]

Couple of points:

Car washes here are generally open down to about zero-5 degrees. The keys are heating the car wash (typically some sort of radiant heat), and keeping the doors closed when possible. Yes, that all costs money, but if you want the wash to work in the winter, that's what you do. The good washes have an undercarriage spray.

If you want to use the sprinkler, rig up your kitchen sink/work sink/ or washer hot water with your garden hose, out the door. Works just fine. You do need to drain the water from the hose when you are done and store it warm.

I'm in the camp of keeping a vehicle until about 12+ years. That's about the point the rust makes it not worth fighting anymore in my experience.

As to the claims that others just won't use other chemicals besides salt, its clear that you don't work in snow removal and ice control. You are stuck in a very tough spot - if you don't get the road to bare surface quickly, you are accused of not doing your job. When we use the most cost effective means to get that type of demanded service, we're accused of not caring that it corrodes everything - including the steel in the very roads we are trying to maintain. The driving public demands that they be able to drive on their near bald all season tires on bare pavement as soon as possible with no costs. The real world doesn't work that way.

We use a variety of deicing materials, but the workhorse remains salt for a simple reason: cost. Nothing else can touch the low cost or bang for the buck of salt. We use other materials as part of pretreating bridge decks and other ice prone areas, and we use a treated salt that lowers the temp that salt is still effective to and lessens the corrosiveness a bit. Anything else costs at least twice as much per lane mile, and nobody wants to raise their taxes to pay for that.

So the conundrum is: Raise taxes to use much more expensive materials to maintain the current level of service, use salt to provide the current level of service, or have the public lower their expectations on level of service and equip their vehicles accordingly (ie: snow tires). Guess which one always gets chosen...

 

[MNgopher]

I'll also point out that many of these less corrosive alternatives have their own drawbacks besides cost.

Many of them will make the road more slippery or greasy under certain conditions, making applying under only certain circumstances the only option.

Many of them contain things that will increase Oxygen Consumption in receiving waters that lessens the oxygen available for fish and other water living creatures.

Others contain phosphorous that will increase algae production receiving waters and creates green lakes and rivers, some of them toxic.

Salt has its own consequences, no doubt.

If it were easy, someone would already be rich as a result of figuring out the perfect, no consequence, solution. We aren't there yet.

 

[Nate1979]

Can you comment on the use of sand? They use it here in the PNW a lot.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Can you comment on the use of sand? They use it here in the PNW a lot.


I lived in ND for 12 years when I was in the Air Force....they never salted the roads, they only put down sand...of course it didn't melt the snow/ice, but you could get traction when driving on it almost as good as if you were driving on bare pavement...why sand isn't used everywhere is beyond me...it's not harmful to vehicles or the environment, and it's gotta be less expensive than salt or any of the other chemicals...why not just use sand?

 

[supton]

I have lots of chips in my paint from "sand" that gets put down. Windshields last a couple of years for me, if they are not cracked after two years then I want it replaced due to pitting.

I am guessing sand is not used as salt is simply more effective at getting bare pavement--which is what the average driver expects. And is often not capable of dealing with anything but. Also, sand has to have chemicals in it,to keep from clumping, I am guessing but the sand I get from the town looks like it has some salt in it.

Will take a wild guess that sand somehow costs more.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: grampi
...why not just use sand?


The answers may seem easy, but they obviously aren't. I'm not an expert on road treatment solutions; that's where I have to have *some* bit of faith in the local jurisdiction that they're making the choice that best balances cost and effectiveness. In the end, you can't please everybody with one solution -- never have and never will. Sand obviously as a set of drawbacks. What they are, I don't know. But I do know this: if the decision was that easy, it'd have already been made.

 

[MNgopher]

Sand has its drawbacks as well. As noted, it does provide traction on slick surfaces. That is why it still is often used in very cold weather (for us - that means below -5F, no sun or warmup to above -5F in the forecast). Explains why North Dakota used it a lot

It also works well in heavy freezing ice conditions as a a traction aid.

The drawbacks of sand are that it has a LOT of manual cleanup required. It ends up accumulating on the shoulder (or way off the shoulder if a lot of winging is done) and has to be swept up if still on a paved surface. If in the vegetation off the paved surface, it will accumulate and essentially suffocate the vegetation by burying it if it isn't cleaned up. Residential properties in particular hate having their grass buried. If we've winged it back, it will end up on the sidewalks in the boulevards too, and that has to be swept up. Ditches eventually fill up, and it ends up in the storm sewers too, reducing capacity. Wherever it dumps out will form a sediment delta, and we have to keep that cleaned up too. (Minimum of every 5 years by our state permit if we are making a sediment delta).

Sand left on the road in dry conditions is a traction hazard. Like driving on marbles. In urban areas, it creates a dust problem. Denver had to dramatically reduce its sand usage to reduce its brown cloud in the winter - dust from traction control was a huge source. They also sweep now in the wintertime when they do put sand down.

Salt minimizes some of those things, mainly by lessening the cleanup required. Of course, the salt doesn't just disappear - it is accumulating in our lakes and waterways too.

I don't mean to be an apologist or defender of the amount of salt we put down. Personally, I think we use too much, and we as society need to adjust our expectations a bit. There is a certain element here that thinks the second the snow stops, the road should be bare, and I should be able to drive my rear wheel drive, summer performance tired car at the speed limit immediately. In contrast, both my vehicles are 4x4 and I use dedicated winter tires. I don't think everyone needs to go that far, but the other extreme isn't the right answer either.

 

[MNgopher]

Oh, and sand is cheaper too - if we don't think about the sweeper rental and labor in the spring... same could be said for metal corrosion though...

The politicians phones ring too when the road isn't bare fast enough, and sand doesn't deliver that.

The trick for it to keep sand from clumping is to keep it dry. Any real moisture in it and it clumps. The augers in the dispenser break that up as well as the drop onto the road from the spinner or chute...

 

[Kestas]

Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Seems like a logical decision. Apparently a lot of people don't know that they, from time to time, should wash off the underside of their vehicle.

Let me point out that for the month of February, we had only two or three days where the temperatures rose above freezing. Last winter was even worse. Do you really think people are going to go through the Herculean efforts of setting up the hose and water source in those weather conditions on a regular basis, just for the marginal protection it affords against corrosion?

 

[MNgopher]

Is it that difficult to go through an automatic car wash every now and then? We go months without seeing above freezing temps here, and car washes do big business all winter long. That alone helps...

 

[supton]

If it is below freezing, is rust occuring?

 

[MNgopher]

Yes, if salt is present...

 

[supton]

I figured it would be more slowly occurring. I do not know the chemistry, other than it likely is faster as temps rise.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: skyactiv
II use a water sprinkler and slide it beneath my car to knock the salt off.

So...how well does that work at 0 degrees?

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: MNgopher
Is it that difficult to go through an automatic car wash every now and then? We go months without seeing above freezing temps here, and car washes do big business all winter long. That alone helps...


Great plan...go through a car wash at 10 degrees, then discover your car is now an iceberg, and none of the doors will open!