New Michelin X-Radials, rotation mileage?

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ltslimjim

ltslimjim

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So, we got the first new set of 4 tires put on the Civic VX this fall just before winter hit. Costco installed with lifetime rotation/balancing + air, with the pro-rated warranty, etc.

They asked me to come back every 6,000. I'm currently running the PSI up to 44, max sidewall rating. What I've heard is that Michelin is really conservative on their max sidewall pressure ratings, but I'm being conservative at 44 all around. Stock is 35 front/32 rear.

My question is whether I should cut my rotation intervals down to 5,000 miles or shorter than the recommended 6,000? I haven't observed new tires on this vehicle yet, and even though I had tie-rods put in last year w/ alignment afterward I'm curious if rotating slightly earlier may catch an irregular wear pattern related to suspension or that sort of thing? I'm almost at 5,000 miles in now. They are also about 2.5% larger than the OE sized tires since the size that came stock on these alloy wheels is being phased out(165/70/R13, now using 175/70/R13).

Thanks. Love the tires so far.
 
I buy tires at Sam's Club which has a very similar deal and policy. I actually think their interval is 5,000 miles, however, my wife gets hers rotated every 3,000 with the oil change. It's easier to keep up with the rotations this way. Anyway, Sam's has never made an issue of the policy.

I like to keep my rotations on track with oil changes and with my car, that's in 5,000 mile intervals. Up to you.

I purchased some of the X-Radials on a '01 Civic EX Coupe once. I had very good experiences with them as well. The previous tires were Michelin Harmonys, which when you look into it, the X-Radial and Harmony are very similar, but specific to different chains.

I'm running 40 PSI in the Goodyear Eagle's that come from the factory on the Corolla with no ill effects after 11,000 miles. They have been rotated twice already.
 
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For front wheel drive cars, more frequent rotations may yield less tread wear differential between front and rear tires. Your 5k miles rotation is very prudent.
 
Okay, cool. I thought 5,000 wasn't being 'too' safe. I'll just start doing that. I'm also curious to find out something else, on a 'related' note.

I had problems with 'stiff' steering prior to replacing the old tires. I already had the tie-rods replaced prior to the new tires and steering was great initially, then I had the old tires rotated/balanced 1 more time(not knowing I would be replacing them sooner), suddenly steering was stiff again.

Once the new tires were put on, stiffness was gone again. Strange to me, but if it 'were' to cause steering to become stiff with the impending rotation, would that indicate a bad wheel somehow? I'm referring to steering while slowly moving or from a stop, at times it just was crazy stiff. The tie rods(inner and outer were done along with new bellows), initially made steering feel like butter. Not as smooth now but close. I could always have the alignment checked at a second shop for kicks I suppose.
 
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^Slight blip in fuel economy while not over-stressing the sidewall of the tire, no issues with suspension/handling from this. In fact, corner/cupping wear can be minimized while center tread wear usually is more of an issue when over-inflating tires of a heavy vehicle.
 
Inflating to max may very well wear your tires out faster. And I mean much faster. The centers will almost assuredly wear out first. I know this from experience. Was told by Michelin dealer to run max pressure. Car handled great. Looked at tires after 6000 miles and they were 1/2 shot.
 
Originally Posted By: digitalSniperX1
Inflating to max may very well wear your tires out faster. And I mean much faster. The centers will almost assuredly wear out first. I know this from experience. Was told by Michelin dealer to run max pressure. Car handled great. Looked at tires after 6000 miles and they were 1/2 shot.


+1 on this. 44 psi is way too high for decent tread life. You'll gain a smidge in gas mileage but pay for it with fast tire wear. This will be even more so on an oversize tire (though it's not a lot oversize, admittedly).

The factory specs sound pretty good. I'd go with those, probably something like 32 front, 29 rear. The rear tires carry little weight relative to the fronts. If you want the same psi for ease of memory, go with 32 (cold) all around.
 
Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
........What I've heard is that Michelin is really conservative on their max sidewall pressure ratings......


Oh, really? Look at other comparable tires and you'll see others that also specify 44 psi.

It's a standard, and not what are thinking it means.
 
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Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
Under-inflating the sidewall max can also cause issues. I enjoyed this thread on a fuel eco site:

http://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=13646


Yes, I remember that conversation. I was surprised that the guy with the Subaru didn't pick up on the obvious differences in diameter that the increased inflation pressure made - not to mention the differences between tire brands. It seemed at the time that this was such an obvious difference, but it totally seemed to be missed on the first go-around.

But back to your statemment about the pressure listed on the sidewall.

It's not what you think it is. First, it isn't always listed as a "MAX". Sometimes it is listed as a relationship to the max load - like this: Max Load XXXX at YY pressure.

But even if it IS listed as a max, the tire doesn't know what vehicle it is going on. However, every vehicle has a vehicle tire placard that lists the original tire size and the proper pressure for that size.

Ya' see, tires are standardized and it doesn't matter who makes the tire, the tire size is pretty much the determining factor when it comes to load carrying capacity - which is what determines the pressure. This is something all the tire manufacturers - and tire standardizing organizations - have agreed on.

However, different tire manufacturers have different takes on what the law says regarding what is supposed to be on the sidewall - and the result is an inconsistency that doesn't reflect anything other than how the law is interpreted.

Put another way, the "sidewall max" is not much about how the tire behaves or is constructed. It's all about different readings of the regulation.

So all the vehicle manufacturers and all of the tire manufacturers point to the vehicle tire placard as the proper pressure.

Why?

Because too low and there isn't sufficient load carrying capacity and the tire could fail from overloading (for the pressure used).

Too high and the contact patch size is reduced which reduces the traction (especially wet traction).
 
Why would you put that much tire pressure in? Your vehicle was designed with a certain amount of air pressure to maximize handling, fuel economy, tread life, and ride comfort. The recommended tire pressure is different for every vehicle.

Tires should be rotated every 6,000 to 8,000 miles. I rotate mine every 6,000. It's a good idea to get an alignment with new tires because old tires can throw off the readings.

I found some 165/70/R13 on tirerack.com. Those size tires are hard to find. It's also a good idea to stick with the recommended tire size.
 
Extensively trimmed ...
Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
I'm currently running the PSI up to 44, max sidewall rating.

Stock is 35 front/32 rear.

They are also about 2.5% larger than the OE sized tires since the size that came stock on these alloy wheels is being phased out(165/70/R13, now using 175/70/R13).


I've read the answers up to this ...

You've heard some good reasons to reconsider your higher (max sidewall is not, to me, the issue) pressure, and there are others. You've replaced the OE tires with a larger size ... and gained load capacity at THE SAME pressure. So your increase relative to what the OE placard would have requested is even more.

BUT I have another point. OE had 3 psi more in the front than the rear. EVEN IF you want, for whatever reason, to increase pressure, I feel that, unless you are driving on a racetrack and want and understand the CHANGE (not necessarily improvement) in handling brought about by changing the balance determined as optimal by the OE, you should maintain the difference.

So I'm saying, that if you like and understand the changes to higher pressure, IMO you should have 44 in the front, and 41 in the rear. I'M NOT RECOMMENDING THE INCREASE. I do prefer some more pressure than OE ... but with the larger size, most of that effect was obtained. If this were my car, I'd probably increase at most by 2 psi, to 37/33.

Good Luck, and please report your results.
 
Originally Posted By: johnsmellsalot
Why would you put that much tire pressure in? Your vehicle was designed with a certain amount of air pressure to maximize a balance of handling, fuel economy, tread life, and ride comfort. The recommended tire pressure is different for every vehicle.



Tread life and fuel economy is certainly NOT maximized at placard pressure, and that is my experience.
 
Good point about rechecking alignment with the new tires. I'll see if the shop notices any strange wear initially at rotation. I did 40 front/36 rear previously on the old tires. Handling so far is great and I don't have issues with contact as far as I can tell. Driving in rain the past 5 days with no issues, either. It's not like what I have the tires currently set at are extreme pressure anyway.

I appreciate the replies and points that are to be made. A lot of the info is relative, and I believe the max PSI for these tires of 44 is relative to a certain load, which I don't approach even half of the weight unless packed for travel and 4 adults; doesn't happen in our vehicle.

I would have bought the Sumitomo's in the 'OE' size, but the deal at Costco was $75 in savings right away with a better warranty. The old tires were these 'larger' size, so I'm not sure how long but it's been a while since this car saw OE sized tires.
 
Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
..........A lot of the info is relative, and I believe the max PSI for these tires of 44 is relative to a certain load, which I don't approach even half of the weight unless packed for travel and 4 adults; doesn't happen in our vehicle............


As I said, it's not what you think it is.

Before we go further, allow me to point you to my web site and have you do some reading.

http://www.barrystiretech.com/loadtables.html

While you are doing that, pay particular attention to the "Notes on Page 1-34".

The point about what the maximum pressure listed on the sidewall is not about a particular load. That's what the load tables do.
 
^I actually remember seeing that article before. The part you reference mentions what I was 'trying' to say earlier, but obviously I haven't gotten to fully comprehend what's going on with ratings/specs for tires. Definitely a noob here.
grin2.gif


Quote:
Most everyone in the tire industry reads the regulation that either 44 psi or 51 psi is the proper value for SL tires. However, a few tire manufacturers - notably the Michelin group (Michelin, Uniroyal, and Goodrich) have interpreted this differently and read the regulation to mean that for S and T speed rated tires, 35 psi should be stamped on the sidewall, while H and higher are supposed to read 44 or 51 psi.


Okay, so the manual states regardless of the tire, it wants 35 front/32 rear. So far, driving in the rain I haven't noticed an issue yet even though the fronts have 20% more air pressure than spec and the rear about 28%. Steering seems fine to me, but I got the feel on the eco fuel sites that most users there didn't experience bad wear by over-inflating 'to a point'.

Brain is in a fog today, could you explain? I take my tires that are supposedly rated for 44 Max PSI and put them on my car at that pressure. Dangerously over, moderate? Advantages/disadvantages? How is the 44 Max Pressure to be used as a 'guide' in my app?

These are basically the tires I have, my Rim width is 5":

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?...2&tab=Specs
 
I found my thread about my tire decision on the other site, and realized another member posted up the barry's tire tech site:

http://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=13581

...and I need to make a correction. I checked and I found I set front/rear to 40 PSI when cold, to allow up to 44 when hot(some head room anyway). So not as high as initially stated if that helps with concerns.
 
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Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
........Okay, so the manual states regardless of the tire, it wants 35 front/32 rear. So far, driving in the rain I haven't noticed an issue yet even though the fronts have 20% more air pressure than spec and the rear about 28%. Steering seems fine to me, but I got the feel on the eco fuel sites that most users there didn't experience bad wear by over-inflating 'to a point'......

A word of warning: My experience with these eco-fuel sites is that most of the louder folks there are ignoring contradictory data. There have been lots of reports of folks with center wear. I don't discount the fact that this is not a universally truism, but the trned seems to be there.
Originally Posted By: skyking;281687
.....Brain is in a fog today, could you explain? I take my tires that are supposedly rated for 44 Max PSI and put them on my car at that pressure. Dangerously over, moderate? Advantages/disadvantages? How is the 44 Max Pressure to be used as a 'guide' in my app?.....


Let me explain it this way:

Somewhere on your vehicle is a sticker that lists the GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight). That's the maximum the vehicle was designed to weight when fully loaded.

Also on that sticker with be the front and rear GAWR's (Gross Axle Weight Rating) - the maximum load that axle is designed to carry. If you add the 2 GAWR's together, you should get a number the is larger thatn the GVW - and that makes sense in that the load isn't always centered.

If you were to calculate the load carrying capacity of the tires based on the size and the placard inflation, you would find that the tire has some reserve capacity - and just for the sake of the discussion, let's assume it's 15%.

So your calculated over-inflation of 20% and 28%, is in reality more like 40% or 50%. Does that sound like a good idea?
 
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^I have relaxed the air pressure. I got the tires rotated a little past 5,000 miles.

I did have the Costco guys suggest I look into replacing the ball joints on the car, I need to have a shop work on the play for lower and upper joints, but this one technician pointed out the boots were gone for the upper at least, and suggested getting both upper joints and the lowers replaced.

I'll check the FSM, do the wheel play checks with the proper supports.

So far, no irregular wear or anything.
 
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