new bmw 10w60 turbo oil

[bobbydavro]

BMW genuine oil became mainstream with shell made formulations since Dec 2014(this is aftermarket only). The last engines needing 10W-60 stopped production in 2013 (4.0 v8). The engine that really needed the 10W-60 was the 3.2 S6 S54 in the older E46 M3.

There will have been no development needed ( or required ) and the current 10W-60 BMW use is part of their whole switch from oil company products to their own BMW branded offer. I guess they wanted a new income source.

Don't for one minute think the 10W-60 technical performance drove this decision.

 

[ledslinger]

A slight drift, is TWS 10W60 good for motorcycles that spec 20W50?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
BMW genuine oil became mainstream with shell made formulations since Dec 2014(this is aftermarket only). The last engines needing 10W-60 stopped production in 2013 (4.0 v8). The engine that really needed the 10W-60 was the 3.2 S6 S54 in the older E46 M3.

There will have been no development needed ( or required ) and the current 10W-60 BMW use is part of their whole switch from oil company products to their own BMW branded offer. I guess they wanted a new income source.

Don't for one minute think the 10W-60 technical performance drove this decision.


I have no doubt that financial reasons led to this decision. But, not sure why Shell 10W60 would not be equal or better to Castrol 10W60?

 

[lim]

Originally Posted By: Rednks1
I am the owner of a 2006 bmw z4m roadster and just did the oil change. Bmw has the new 10w60 turbo oil they gave me not the old Castrol oil. is this a good or a bad change they made or should I go back to the old Castrol tws 10w60


These days (since November 2014, I think) BMW recommends Shell Helix Ultra Racing 10w-60 rather than Castrol. Perhaps this is where their own branded oils are sourced?

Regards, lim

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: ledslinger
A slight drift, is TWS 10W60 good for motorcycles that spec 20W50?


Well it's not a motorcycle oil, but neither are the HDEOs that many people use.

I've had a lot of success using Castrol 10W-60 in motorcycles. It's right at the lower end of a 60 weight, so it's close to a 10W-50. The winter starting ability 10W or 20W makes no difference until you get to temperatures below -10C and that's not motorcycling weather where I come from.

I used Castrol 10W-60 for 10 years straight in a Honda CBR 600 that called for 10W-40. I decided to try it and like it so much that I kept using it. I changed the oil every year or 10,000 KM (6000mi) but it felt like it could have gone further and still looked good.

See what works for you and your bike. I had a mate that tried it but preferred HDEO Delo 15W-40 in his bike. I can't pass comment on other brand 10W-60s as I have never used them.

But back in the old days before special (and overpriced) motorcycle oils, GTX 20w-50 and Valvoline 20W-50 were the go-to oils for motorcycles. I found they sheared out way too quick, but Castrol 10W-60 lasted much longer. I started changing my oil because it was time to change, not because the gear shift had gone bad.

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
BMW genuine oil became mainstream with shell made formulations since Dec 2014(this is aftermarket only). The last engines needing 10W-60 stopped production in 2013 (4.0 v8). The engine that really needed the 10W-60 was the 3.2 S6 S54 in the older E46 M3.

There will have been no development needed ( or required ) and the current 10W-60 BMW use is part of their whole switch from oil company products to their own BMW branded offer. I guess they wanted a new income source.

Don't for one minute think the 10W-60 technical performance drove this decision.


I have no doubt that financial reasons led to this decision. But, not sure why Shell 10W60 would not be equal or better to Castrol 10W60?


Interesting assumption which I think already has an opinion formed. You just said that cost was probably reason. Then you also think better performance ?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
BMW genuine oil became mainstream with shell made formulations since Dec 2014(this is aftermarket only). The last engines needing 10W-60 stopped production in 2013 (4.0 v8). The engine that really needed the 10W-60 was the 3.2 S6 S54 in the older E46 M3.

There will have been no development needed ( or required ) and the current 10W-60 BMW use is part of their whole switch from oil company products to their own BMW branded offer. I guess they wanted a new income source.

Don't for one minute think the 10W-60 technical performance drove this decision.


I have no doubt that financial reasons led to this decision. But, not sure why Shell 10W60 would not be equal or better to Castrol 10W60?


Interesting assumption which I think already has an opinion formed. You just said that cost was probably reason. Then you also think better performance ?

I do not think decision to move to Shell was based on oil but on overall scheme of things. BMW and Shell did not only entered partnership when it comes to oil, but various other things. In grand scheme of things, I think moving from BP to Shell is better. That is just my opinion.
10W60 is just one of the products, but I am not sure we saw ANY evidence that Castrol 10W60 is better or worse then Shell.

 

[bobbydavro]

BMW didn't move anything. They went from an oil company recommended oil to a Geniune oil. It also takes both parties to agree to any supply deal.

 

[Shannow]

bobbydavro,
do (in your estimation) BMW have an exacting and detailed specification that they share with these OEM suppliers ?

It's been posited on the board that some OEMs have such, even down to the use of specific ingredients to meet their needs.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
BMW didn't move anything. They went from an oil company recommended oil to a Geniune oil. It also takes both parties to agree to any supply deal.




As far as I know BMW had BMW Genuine oil before too.
You could always buy BMW oil in their service or online.
But that still does not say why Castrol TWS 10W60 is better then BMW 10W60 (whatever is inside)? I am not saying TWS is bad, I use castrol too in one of my cars, but not sure that there is ANY evidence whatsoever that TWS is better then what BMW sells now in their "genuine" bottles. For that matter, there is no any evidence that BMW genuine oil is better then TWS.
I personally do not use Castrol LL-04 or BMW Genuine oil since not Castrol nor BMW is transparent as what is in the bottles. Mobil1 at least posts some actual numbers and not numbers like: min 3.5cp, min 200c, etc. which became tradition in Castrol sheets.

 

[bobbydavro]

Those numbers are largely irrelevant compared to actual performance hence they rarely appeared (not deliberately hiding them just didn't see the importance)

No OEMs have a say in what specifically goes in oil. They tend to focus on performance rather than ingredients and PDS data. Some of the Japanese specs do like to have moly levels but Japan does like finding homes for moly.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Those numbers are largely irrelevant compared to actual performance hence they rarely appeared (not deliberately hiding them just didn't see the importance)

No OEMs have a say in what specifically goes in oil. They tend to focus on performance rather than ingredients and PDS data. Some of the Japanese specs do like to have moly levels but Japan does like finding homes for moly.

If they are irrelevant why not providing actual numbers? Castrol and BP trying not to overwhelm us with info?
For the love of God.
To go back to my question that I asked you as an insider, why would TWS be better then current BMW 10W60?
All what you give us here is going around why BMW changed supplier etc. which is irrelevant in this discussion.
Owners of M3 E46 now have 10W60 in BMW dealerships and if TWS is better then this BMW, it would be nice to explain them why is that.

 

[bobbydavro]

Because many people like to compare PDS and some how use the values as a yardstick. It's not like nothing is there to hide, although for some reason yeh US PDS we're extra vague. You will see that PDS for US are now more like the global PDS used all around the rest of the world before.

I think you are assuming newer is better. Also you see to think BMW have some input in the formulation.

My point I'm trying to hint at is that BMW are likely to have chosen oil on price rather than performance, a 'new' 10W-60 only has to be ACEA now for BMW use. Just look at the branding for how much care they took 'twinpower turbo' on an oil for non turbo engines.

TWS is a well proven formulation in M cars and motorsport and is was developed when there was a Geniune technical requirement from the BMW hardware. The way it is formulated is rather unique and has some very good results in engine test. However without benchmarking its difficult to say how much better. I would imagine, from experience, it's a extension to an existing program.

TWS is probably the best formulation i have seen which is why I think i deserved a bit more credit.

 

[Thebimmerfan]

Originally Posted By: Rednks1
...the new oil is made by Pennzoil I believe but its hard to get the Castrol here now I found out. and am getting ready for a road trip and trusted bmw to not do us wrong. im have never been a Pennzoil fan as I run mobil oil in most every thing I own and maintain.


At least here in Europe the new BMW 10W-60 is made by Shell.

 

[Thebimmerfan]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
...
TWS is a well proven formulation in M cars and motorsport and is was developed when there was a Geniune technical requirement from the BMW hardware. The way it is formulated is rather unique and has some very good results in engine test. However without benchmarking its difficult to say how much better. I would imagine, from experience, it's a extension to an existing program.

TWS is probably the best formulation i have seen which is why I think i deserved a bit more credit.


Absolutely true, the old TWS was a superb oil, the problem is that with the introduction of the "Edge" series Castrol changed their 10W-60 formulations - indeed worsened them. The following Edge Sport 10W-60 was inferior to its predecessor the TWS 10W-60, later Castrol Edge FST 10W-60 was inferior to the previous Edge Sport 10W-60 and so on.
I highly doubt that the new BMW Twin Turbo 10W-60 (Shell) oil is better than the good old TWS, but I won't be surprised if it results superior to the last Edge editions (Edge Titanium FST 10W-60).

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: Thebimmerfan
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
...
TWS is a well proven formulation in M cars and motorsport and is was developed when there was a Geniune technical requirement from the BMW hardware. The way it is formulated is rather unique and has some very good results in engine test. However without benchmarking its difficult to say how much better. I would imagine, from experience, it's a extension to an existing program.

TWS is probably the best formulation i have seen which is why I think i deserved a bit more credit.


Absolutely true, the old TWS was a superb oil, the problem is that with the introduction of the "Edge" series Castrol changed their 10W-60 formulations - indeed worsened them. The following Edge Sport 10W-60 was inferior to its predecessor the TWS 10W-60, later Castrol Edge FST 10W-60 was inferior to the previous Edge Sport 10W-60 and so on.
I highly doubt that the new BMW Twin Turbo 10W-60 (Shell) oil is better than the good old TWS, but I won't be surprised if it results superior to the last Edge editions (Edge Titanium FST 10W-60).


Depends what 'worse' means really. The old TWS was only API SJ and no ACEA credentials.

Interesting you say EDGE Sport 10W-60 was worse than EDGE 10W-60 FST. Any reason?

 

[Thebimmerfan]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro

Depends what 'worse' means really. The old TWS was only API SJ and no ACEA credentials.

Interesting you say EDGE Sport 10W-60 was worse than EDGE 10W-60 FST. Any reason?


I know only one meaning of "worse" - of inferior quality. In the formulations of Castrol 10W-60 that came after TWS cheaper base stocks were used - an oil that began its life as a high ester content true racing oil turned with every new reformulation into a more civil one, with much less esters, being they replaced by cheaper (and inferior in quality) group 3 hydrocracking bases. For a real race oil as TWS indeed being API SJ and having no "ACEA credentials" is only of benefit, but it's absolutely not a deffect. I have used all the generations of Castrol 10W-60 and no posterior one could compare with TWS - this oil was just superb.

 

[Thebimmerfan]

The degradation of Castrol 10W-60 saga reached to such depth that in a moment there was a Castrol Edge 10W-60 that was BMW M Power approved and Castrol Edge Sport 10W-60 that wasn't approved for BMW M Power engines.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Because many people like to compare PDS and some how use the values as a yardstick. It's not like nothing is there to hide, although for some reason yeh US PDS we're extra vague. You will see that PDS for US are now more like the global PDS used all around the rest of the world before.

I think you are assuming newer is better. Also you see to think BMW have some input in the formulation.

My point I'm trying to hint at is that BMW are likely to have chosen oil on price rather than performance, a 'new' 10W-60 only has to be ACEA now for BMW use. Just look at the branding for how much care they took 'twinpower turbo' on an oil for non turbo engines.

TWS is a well proven formulation in M cars and motorsport and is was developed when there was a Geniune technical requirement from the BMW hardware. The way it is formulated is rather unique and has some very good results in engine test. However without benchmarking its difficult to say how much better. I would imagine, from experience, it's a extension to an existing program.

TWS is probably the best formulation i have seen which is why I think i deserved a bit more credit.

Like someone pointed TWS was the standard as many other Castrol oils. Castrol 0W30 (that I swore into) was also one of those oils. Now? Nothing better or worse then any other oil in that class, whether you are looking PDS when new or more importantly UOA. For example only reason why I am using 0W40 castrol is availability, but I might give a try to new M1 0W40. Not sure why 0W40 would be any better then M1 0W40.
I am not at all discrediting TWS, BUT your answer why TWS is better then current 10W60 BMW oil is that BMW moved to that oil because of cost. What to say about Castrol and cost then? Also, who cares about what it says on bottles? Twin Turbo? So? All oil companies have their marketing all over the place with various name that sometimes do not make any sense.
I think we have to see some UOA from M models using this oil to make any kind of judgment. But what you saying does not explain why would TWS be better then BMW 10W60.

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: Thebimmerfan
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro

Depends what 'worse' means really. The old TWS was only API SJ and no ACEA credentials.

Interesting you say EDGE Sport 10W-60 was worse than EDGE 10W-60 FST. Any reason?


I know only one meaning of "worse" - of inferior quality. In the formulations of Castrol 10W-60 that came after TWS cheaper base stocks were used - an oil that began its life as a high ester content true racing oil turned with every new reformulation into a more civil one, with much less esters, being they replaced by cheaper (and inferior in quality) group 3 hydrocracking bases. For a real race oil as TWS indeed being API SJ and having no "ACEA credentials" is only of benefit, but it's absolutely not a deffect. I have used all the generations of Castrol 10W-60 and no posterior one could compare with TWS - this oil was just superb.


I didn't say credentials was the only thing to judge an oil on. However why was it superb?

There is no group III in current 10W-60 either.