moly in common diesel oils

[JHZR2]

Hi,

I am just trying to clarify the moly content in a number of common oils (all 15w-40 dinos), Particularly Rotella T, Delo 400, Delvac 1300S, and Pennzoil long-life.

Of these, only Mobil and Pennzoil have Moly, correct? And Pennzoil has more?
I looked at the VOA numbers for this info, but the pennzoil was for a SJ/CH-4 oil. Would moly content change?

Is there any thought as to what will happen with the pennzoil oil since shell is taking some plants over? I think I get the best MPG in my diesel with the pennzoil, and from data from this site, Id guess its becaue of the high moly content.

Seems that Mobil 1300s has the best additive pkg overall, Pennzoil second best because of its high moly (unsure of the rest of the pkg contents compared to others), and Delo 400 has the best basestock.

So... what is more important, moly and good additives, or a better basestock, particularly if 3000mi drains are the norm.

Thanks for the advice

JMH

 

[JHZR2]

Also, here is a quote I got from a very helpful Chevron engineer, when asked about their thoughts on the use of Moly in oil... I dont know if I can really buy it though, since I seem to notice the best MPG with Pennzoil, which has lots of Moly...

'Moly is a great dry film libricant and is very useful in greases. Molybdenum Disulfide is a powdered metal. As far as it's benefits in engine oils, I would have to say they would be minimal at best. '

JMH

 

[MolaKule]

"Moly is a great dry film libricant and is very useful in greases. Molybdenum Disulfide is a powdered metal. As far as it's benefits in engine oils, I would have to say they would be minimal at best. '"

I don't know who this person is, but he/she is way behind the times. Technical papers in Lubrication Engineering, Wear, and the SAE, have, for the last 25 years shown Moly to be a great FM, AW, antioxidant, and lowers emissions and reduces catalyst poisioning.
Undoubtedly, they know nothing of moly chemistries, since we are talking about Moly Dithiocarbamates, and not powdered moly sulfides.

 

[buster]

This happend to me with Amsoil...they got it wrong too with Moly. They were refering to the other Moly. Makes you wonder about these people.....

 

[mdv]

Molakule: Do we really know for sure what each manufacturer uses for "moly" in their formulations? Is there any way to tell through routine analysis. Lubro-Moly states pretty clearly that they use molydenum disulfide in at least one of their formulations. What about some of the other manufacturers?

 

[MolaKule]

"Molakule: Do we really know for sure what each manufacturer uses for "moly" in their formulations? Is there any way to tell through routine analysis. Lubro-Moly states pretty clearly that they use molydenum disulfide in at least one of their formulations. What about some of the other manufacturers?"

Most formulators use Molybdenum tridialkyldithiocarbamate, or MoDTC: an FM, AW (anti-wear), anti-oxidant, anti-corrosive. MoTDC is completetly in solution and is almost clear when in its carrier. Most formulators use this form because it goes into solution completly; that is, it mixes well with all base oils and the rest of the additive package.

Part of the problem is there are many forms of MoS2, with MoTDC being one of them. Another form is the fine powder which has a dark, silverish cast when in oil; MolySlip additive is one such product.

Edit: I should also add that the MoTDC form of moly is rather expensive, and some companies simply don't want the added expense of adding another AW additive. I do disagree with Amsoil and others about not using moly. Moly provides an extra AW/EP function above the temperatures at which ZDDP fails. Now, if additive companies come out with another AW/EP additive say, a Boron ester that is cheaper than MoTDC, then you might see them switch to other more exotic AW/EP additives.

[ February 04, 2003, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[Bio-T]

First of all a different Moly is used in motor oil. Do a search and take a day to read all the replys on that subject. It is interesting.

I think Pennzoil will continue to operate as before with no noticeable changes in the product.

If you have had good mileage with Pennzoil I would continue to use it. Readily available at WM and good price. Off the top of my head the Shell did not have Moly. Again, this oil would be my last choice, but that is personal preference. Delvac 1300 S, Delo 400 or Pennzoil all in 15W40 are top choices for OTC and changed at 3K as you do, no problem.

Delvac 1300S--Good additive package and -27F PP
Delo 400-Good base stock and -38F PP
Pennzoil- CI/SL rated also, good base and additives with a -33 pour point.
Shell Rotella T-living on their name, pour point of -15F

IMHO

 

[msparks]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MolaKule:
I do disagree with Amsoil and others about not using moly. Moly provides an extra AW/EP function above the temperatures at which ZDDP fails. Now, if additive companies come out with another AW/EP additive say, a Boron ester that is cheaper than MoTDC, then you might see them switch to other more exotic AW/EP additives.

---

I thought it was the other way around, the moly would work at lower temps, because ZDDP does start working until like 150 degrees? And the MOTDC works at any temps?

Why can't we just make ceramic engines with no lubricant and no heat, and no wear??

 

[mdv]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MolaKule:


Part of the problem is there are many forms of MoS2, with MoTDC being one of them.

---

Thanks for clarifying, I didn't realize the actual relationship between the two.

 

[MolaKule]

Msparks,

"I thought it was the other way around, the moly would work at lower temps, because ZDDP does start working until like 150 degrees? And the MOTDC works at any temps?"

Think of Moly as starting to work where ZDDP left off. BTW, we are not speaking of the bulk oil temperature; the activation temps of either are due to intense heating by contact forces (pressures).

Here is some info from a post on the main thread:

There are many types of fluids, with gas being one of them and oils being another; just different viscosites and different constants of proportionality.

If we assume constant Volume, the Temperature (T = PV/nR and replacing P = F/A, so T = FV/nRA), increases as the pressure (load force) goes up. The constant for gas is replaced with a constant for lubricating fluids.

Also recall that in an engine one form of energy (mechanical) is transformed to other types of energy (thermal) and vice versa.

So as the mechanical forces increase, the fluid is squeezed, increasing pressure, and thus heating the interface, causing plastic flow of the anti-wear additive - this plastic flow keeps the metal surfaces from contacting.

Edit: Think of the lubricating fluid under pressure as a nonideal gas under the influences of the "van der Walls" molecular forces.

[ February 05, 2003, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[dragboat]

I found this interesting MSDS of a Molydisulphide.

http://www.unocal.com/msds/molycorp/2650.pdf

And it's applications

http://www.molycorp.com/home_frameset.html

Geeze I cannot get it on the correct frame,,you have to click on Molybedenum which says:

STEELS:

The iron and steel industry consumes 75% of the molybdenum produced. Molybdenum is primarily used as an alloying element in the production of alloy, stainless and tool steels, and cast iron. Most high strength steels contain some amount of molybdenum up to the 8% level.

Steel producers add molybdenum as oxide or ferromolybdenum to:
Increase high-temperature performance
Resist sulfide stress cracking
Improve corrosion resistance
Improve wear resistance

LUBRICANTS:

Purified molybdenum disulfide has fantastic lubricating properties due, in part, to its layered structure. Molybdenum based lubricants allow steel structures to move fluidly against each other, especially at high temperatures and pressures.

Combinations of molybdenum and water or oil soluble materials yield excellent cutting and metalworking fluids. Engine protection lubricants are significant applications in this industry.


CHEMICALS:

There is a wide range of chemical products which utilize pure molybdenum in various forms. Chemical products account for about 15-20% of global molybdenum consumption. The unique characteristics of moly are valued in such products as:

· Hydroprocessing catalysts
· Rust Inhibitors
· Pigments
· Fertilizer additives

[ February 05, 2003, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

 

[GeorgeCLS]

I agree completely with Molakule on the high temperature capabilities of moly but the aspect that was mentioned regarding moly not being heat activated as many AW/EP additives are makes moly very unique. On those cold morning startups, having an aw/ep component ready to go to provide protection immediately on startup is quite significant. Oil manufacturers are not talking about this aspect of moly as it is their 'secret weapon'.. Some really impressive wear reductions with certain formulations.
George

 

[jjbula]

quote:

---

Originally posted by GeorgeCLS:
Oil manufacturers are not talking about this aspect of moly as it is their 'secret weapon'..
George

---

For those of you old enough to remember Dr. Strangelove....

"What good is a doomsday weapon if you keep it a secret?"

 

[Jim]

In a engine that is not used on a regular basis (tractor , generator, other farm equipment) I think oils with moly would really shine. The oil is going to be all in the pan after a week of sitting and that’s when you would really like to have something like moly coating the engine.

 

[Ron-Indy]

Sorry if this has been explained in another thread, but given that Moly appears to be a beneficial additive and that Delvac 1 is one of the best Diesel oils, why doesn't Mobil put Moly in Delvac 1 and make it even better?

 

[Neil Womack]

Delvac 1 is already one of the most expensive diesel oils you can buy.

If they add moly they either have to raise their price or lower their profit margin.

Raised prices might just push some users into a new oil search resulting in loss of market share and then loss of profit.

Lowering profit margin makes the Delvac 1 profit center appear poorly managed.

Both bad scenarios for Mobil Lube managers.

Sorry for the econ 101. But like my daddy used to say follow the money and you'll find out why many things happen the way they do.

 

[Steve S]

A question is moly used to cut down on the zinc and phosphorus in the over the counters oils?

 

[Ken2]

Phosphorus is already down to a maximum of 0.1% by weight in all API-SJ & SL oils. The phosphorus is in the form of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) antiwear additive.

It's probably to safe to say that most (or many) motor oils have no moly in them. Molybdenum trialkyldithiocarbamate is the next step after ZDDP in antiwear additives for oil companies that choose to use it.


Ken

 

[Ron-Indy]

Neil;

While there is logic to your economics, one could argue that the addition of moly would increase their market share (if the "improved formulation" was properly marketed of course) and result in higher overall profit by having volume generated profits offset the incremental cost per gallon. I'm guessing that was their logic with it's addition in Mobil 1 as I do not think Supersyn increased in cost when it was launched.

More importantly though, I now gather it's P&L related not chemistry. I thought perhaps there was a mechanical (something unique to diesels) or chemical reason (something unique in Delvac's formulation) that was preventing moly in Delvac.

From a marketing perspective, it seems odd to me that with moly / Supersyn being their story in Mobil 1 why they don't carry the concept to it's sister product Delvac 1.

Thanks for the information

[ March 18, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Ron-Indy ]