Lower Priced Indian Models

[JPowell490]

Robenstein,

I appreciate your explanation, but Buell had issues before Harley brought him in.

Trust me, I spoke to Erik himself. It was [censored] excuse after [censored] excuse.

1 month after I bought that bike for almost 10 grand, they liquidated them for 5k. You talk about being upside down on a bike, that is upside down.

You just have no idea the pain and suffering that pos caused me. EB likes to blame it all on someone else. It is as much his fault as anyone's.

 

[Robenstein]

This is not a 26k dollar bike, this is a 11k dollar bike that offers more bang for the buck than Harley currently does in any of their entry level bikes. For the same money you can get a street series bike or a 883 or 1200 Sportster. Both of which are smaller, more cramped, and the most powerful (1200 Sporty) offer 25 less HP.

Harley is not king of motorcycles. If I recall in terms of global motorcycle sales, Honda was king in 2013. In terms of volume last year I think Harley was 5th or 6th. And since those other companies are profitable there is plenty of data to show the "king" is only king in its backyard where it has until just this part year focused its energy. And don't pull up the stock price argument because last I checked Polaris has a much higher stock price than Harley.

Harley makes a good product, but to say its the best of the best is just silly and narrow minded. If you like the brand that is good for you. But you should perhaps not bash other fine products from other quality makers.

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
...this is a 11k dollar bike that offers more bang for the buck than Harley currently does in any of their entry level bikes. For the same money you can get a street series bike or a 883 or 1200 Sportster. Both of which are smaller, more cramped, and the most powerful (1200 Sporty) offer 25 less HP.

...


OK, hold the phone a second, that is a matter of opinion "best" and "better" depend on how you define them, and whether a sporty is cramped or not depends on how big (or not) you are... and small isn't necessarily a draw back.

I'd argue that a 1200T which comes very nice bags and a windshield and has available ABS is a better value. But as I've said in the past, one cannot really make a value assessment for someone else...

The streets and 883s are significantly cheaper (Street $6800 - $7500, 883 about $8500) so that is not really "the same money". ABS is an option on all Sportsters.

An 883 has plenty of power for anything you really need to do on the street... so the extra HP really isn't a selling point to me, though it may be for some.

The apparent lack of an ABS option is a pretty major omission by Indian for me.

$11,000.00 is not a great place to be for them in terms of pricing either in my opnion, there is a lot of entry level stuff that is a lot cheaper and it is within shouting distance of nicer bikes...

I guess we will see how it goes, for me Indian is missing the mark... maybe I'm the only one...maybe not.

 

[whip]

Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
Victory isn't considered any more of a threat then indian, yamaha, suzuki, or kawasaki thought they were.

I read an article that quoted the CEO of Harley and he said they are taking Indian seriously. I never said Indian would sell more bikes, but they will take sales away from the "king". Losing sales is a threat, no matter what color of glasses you wear.

I also noticed how you left Honda off of your list. Funny.

Quote:
What company do I hold to a higher standard of pure truth or boycott? Yamaha, Suzuki, and Kawasaki. I would never buy one, but at least they don't claim to be something they are not.

As I thought, you're avoiding the question. I didn't ask what kind of bike you refuse to buy. I asked about other companies you hold to the truth or boycott standard. Companies like Ford, GM, Walmart, They all make untrue statements in marketing. Can you list the other companies your boycotting? I have a feeling I'll be waiting a long time.

Quote:
Look, if you either enjoy, or don't mind having the wool pulled over your eyes by the new and improved Indian company, go buy one of their bikes. But $26,000 for a bikes with little or no dealer network support, is way too much for me to spend. Buy whatever you want, just don't say you weren't informed .,,

How is the wool being pulled over my eyes? It's a new company with an old name. Are you saying you'd spend $26,000 if they had a better dealer network? Eventually, they will.

 

[whip]

Originally Posted By: whip
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
Originally Posted By: whip
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
The New Indian motorcycle company has NO connection with the OLD Indian motorcycle company. Their heritage goes all they way back 2 or 3 years . There is no connection with this company, and the Old company, NONE. They are trying to resurrect a iconic brand, that they had NO hand in. I might be inclined to accept the bike as an alternative to Harley, if they weren't trying to FALSELY sell the idea that they are somehow tied to the original motorcycle company. They are just the second group of people to BUY the Indian NAME. Their only connection to the original company took place in a lawyers office.,,

Is this news to anyone? Because the Indian name was bought, you can't accept them as an American made alternative? Are you really that insecure in your brand? Do you accept Victory as an American alternative brand? Does it matter to anyone if you accept them or not? How does that affect me?

On a side note, is it possible to have a mature discusion about motorcycles without it turning into a [censored] match?
Sure it is. Just don't spew blatant lies to the public and expect them to believe them. Insecure? you must be new here. I guess you believe that hogwash they are trying to sell about heritage. I really don't care if it affects you or not.My comments are put here to make sure no one gets snookered into thinking they buying something marketed as truth,but is a lie. I see no proof Indian is going to hurt Harleys sales any more then all the others that came in thinking they are the next "big thing", only to be run off and barely heard from again. Their bikes look old based on the same V-Twin motor that's been around for ages, thanks to Harley. And even their newest model has a striking resemblance to the V-Rod. Yea, they are real creative. Until they can build a dealer network as fast as Harley's, they won't do well. And if the mother company that also owns Victory motorcycles, doesn't feel their making enough money in this venue, the "company" known as Indian will be sold off to the next highest bidder. At least at that point you'll be able to track it's "heritage".,,

If your problem is with the marketing, how do you justify owning a Harley? They claim to be American made, yet over half the parts are foreign? I recall an ad about being independent, yet at the same time they want you to buy the clothing and blend in with the pack. Is that lie OK?

Cahuna,
When you get a chance, can you answer the question about the marketing lies put out by Harley, and why those lies are OK, but the lies from Indian have you hot and bothered?

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
There is a connection if you honor the heritage of the company you purchased. I would say they are doing just that. Most people who bought new Indians in the old days are too old to ride or just dead. So they are not playing on the heart strings of nostalgia. I think Polaris is simply trying to do two things

1. Honor the brand and how it was a formative force in the early years of motorcycling in the USA.

2. Take the past strengths and adapt them to the modern world.

I personally see nothing wrong with what they are doing. And honestly if you take your train of thought and look at Harley Davidson, then when AMF got some lawyers and wrote a check, there was not a single genuine Harley made from 1969 to 1981 when the relatives bought it back.
No there's not. They are trying to play on the nostalgic heart strings of potential customers.


I think it's hilarious that you are ragging on Indian for "playing on nostalgic heart strings" (IF they are actually doing this) when Harley's entire marketing strategy is centered on that very notion...buy a Harley, buy American, baseball, apple pie, the whole 9 yards, when their bikes are mostly foreign made parts...what a farce!

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: bulwnkl
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
In my mind I lumped Victory and Indian together as they are both Polaris owned.


Fair enough; thanks. Just wondered if I'd missed something about the Victorys.

For my part, I do wish that Indian and Victory offered a non-counter-balanced, rubber-mounted engine like H-D offers. There's a very noticeable difference between how quickly the non-balanced Harleys rev vs the balanced ones, to me. Also, despite the ludicrous shaking at idle, I find the rubber-mount Harleys to be the smoothest motors when on the road.


Then you must not have compared the smoothness of Harley engines to many others because Harleys aren't even close to being smooth compared to most other makes...

 

[gman2304]

Harleys do shake at idle but smooth out nicely at speed.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: gman2304
Harleys do shake at idle but smooth out nicely at speed.


They are much smoother at highway speeds than at idle, but saying their engines are smoother than other make's engines at highway speeds simply isn't true...my 109's engine is considerably smoother than a Harley's at any RPM...

 

[BigCahuna]

Here's an explanation for all the Harley haters here.n 1960, Harley-Davidson consolidated the Model 165 and Hummer lines into the Super-10, introduced the Topper scooter,[39] and bought fifty percent of Aermacchi's motorcycle division.[39][40] Importation of Aermacchi's 250 cc horizontal single began the following year.[40][41][42] The bike bore Harley-Davidson badges and was marketed as the Harley-Davidson Sprint.[41][42] The engine of the Sprint was increased to 350 cc in 1969[40][43] and would remain that size until 1974, when the four-stroke Sprint was discontinued.[43]

After the Pacer and Scat models were discontinued at the end of 1965, the Bobcat became the last of Harley-Davidson's American-made two-stroke motorcycles. The Bobcat was manufactured only in the 1966 model year.[44]

Harley-Davidson replaced their American-made lightweight two-stroke motorcycles with the Aermacchi-built two-stroke powered M-65, M-65S, and Rapido. The M-65 had a semi-step-through frame and tank. The M-65S was a M-65 with a larger tank that eliminated the step-through feature. The Rapido was a larger bike with a 125 cc engine.[45] The Aermacchi-built Harley-Davidsons became entirely two-stroke powered when the 250 cc two-stroke SS-250 replaced the four-stroke 350 cc Sprint in 1974.[46]

Harley-Davidson purchased full control of Aermacchi's motorcycle production in 1974 and continued making two-stroke motorcycles there until 1978, when they sold the facility to Cagiva.[39] You can deny all you want, but it doesn't change the truth. Something that some people don't care about anymore. When you do one thing for over 110 years an still have the selling power, you are the king. How do you explain how a 20 year old Harley still sells for a good price over a 20 year old foreign brand ? Why do foreign brands make so many models? why ,because they have to. They know from experience that they cannot be competitive doing something like competing against Harley by selling only one line of product. Honda sells bikes, jet skis, generators, lawn mowers, cars, and what they sold as the "next big bike" the vtx 1800, was dropped out of production. Just like the sure fire Kawasaki vn2000 was going to unseat Harley. Sadly for them they stopped making that one also. Who really knows how many models went away because of dismal sales. Beside trying to convince the motorcycle buying public that they have any connection to the old Indian company is a joke. But one the people hear can't see thru. Like I said if you want one buy one. Think how easy it will be to sell in 5 years or Indian folds up whichever comes first.,,

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
Here's an explanation for all the Harley haters here.n 1960, Harley-Davidson consolidated the Model 165 and Hummer lines into the Super-10, introduced the Topper scooter,[39] and bought fifty percent of Aermacchi's motorcycle division.[39][40] Importation of Aermacchi's 250 cc horizontal single began the following year.[40][41][42] The bike bore Harley-Davidson badges and was marketed as the Harley-Davidson Sprint.[41][42] The engine of the Sprint was increased to 350 cc in 1969[40][43] and would remain that size until 1974, when the four-stroke Sprint was discontinued.[43]

After the Pacer and Scat models were discontinued at the end of 1965, the Bobcat became the last of Harley-Davidson's American-made two-stroke motorcycles. The Bobcat was manufactured only in the 1966 model year.[44]

Harley-Davidson replaced their American-made lightweight two-stroke motorcycles with the Aermacchi-built two-stroke powered M-65, M-65S, and Rapido. The M-65 had a semi-step-through frame and tank. The M-65S was a M-65 with a larger tank that eliminated the step-through feature. The Rapido was a larger bike with a 125 cc engine.[45] The Aermacchi-built Harley-Davidsons became entirely two-stroke powered when the 250 cc two-stroke SS-250 replaced the four-stroke 350 cc Sprint in 1974.[46]

Harley-Davidson purchased full control of Aermacchi's motorcycle production in 1974 and continued making two-stroke motorcycles there until 1978, when they sold the facility to Cagiva.[39] You can deny all you want, but it doesn't change the truth. Something that some people don't care about anymore. When you do one thing for over 110 years an still have the selling power, you are the king. How do you explain how a 20 year old Harley still sells for a good price over a 20 year old foreign brand ? Why do foreign brands make so many models? why ,because they have to. They know from experience that they cannot be competitive doing something like competing against Harley by selling only one line of product. Honda sells bikes, jet skis, generators, lawn mowers, cars, and what they sold as the "next big bike" the vtx 1800, was dropped out of production. Just like the sure fire Kawasaki vn2000 was going to unseat Harley. Sadly for them they stopped making that one also. Who really knows how many models went away because of dismal sales. Beside trying to convince the motorcycle buying public that they have any connection to the old Indian company is a joke. But one the people hear can't see thru. Like I said if you want one buy one. Think how easy it will be to sell in 5 years or Indian folds up whichever comes first.,,


Long post to avoid answering the question (with a bunch of the same old tired and irrelevant arguments)...let's try again...you have a problem with the way Indian presents itself, but you're okay with the way Harley presents itself? If that isn't the definition of a hypocrite, I don't know what is...and that's a fact!

 

[BigCahuna]

Ok, I presented a case no one has proven to be untrue. I can only say things so many ways, and you people still don't understand. How is Harley wrongly presenting itself? It bought a small motorcycle company and tried to make it profitable. And for the most part it did. Until the EPA killed two stroke motors on bikes. Which effected all bike makers at the time. It never said Harley is proud of or has been in the Italian motorcycle market for over 100 years. There was no 60 year gap in Harley's production line. They are methodical in which products the choose to sell. Does that bother some? If it does, don't buy anything from them. It doesn't matter to me what you do or buy. Harley didn't buy a name and claim all the brands past success was their's. Finally, I don't call anyone here names, and would appreciate the same courtesy.,

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
Ok, I presented a case no one has proven to be untrue. I can only say things so many ways, and you people still don't understand. How is Harley wrongly presenting itself? It bought a small motorcycle company and tried to make it profitable. And for the most part it did. Until the EPA killed two stroke motors on bikes. Which effected all bike makers at the time. It never said Harley is proud of or has been in the Italian motorcycle market for over 100 years. There was no 60 year gap in Harley's production line. They are methodical in which products the choose to sell. Does that bother some? If it does, don't buy anything from them. It doesn't matter to me what you do or buy. Harley didn't buy a name and claim all the brands past success was their's. Finally, I don't call anyone here names, and would appreciate the same courtesy.,


There are two types of people in here; one type sees Harley as just another motorcycle company, the other sees it as a culture and a legend...you fall into the 2nd category, and as a result you look at them through Harley colored glasses...to you, Harley can do no wrong, therefore it is you who can't understand because you have been blinded by brand loyalty...

 

[Robenstein]

Indeed...there are some people that are Harley Davidson hagiographers. BigCahuna is one of them. I just see them as one of many long lived motorcycle makers capable of making a decent product. They are by no means the top dog, they are by no means head and shoulders above the rest. Harley, Triumph, Norton, and Indian are all using essentially the same marketing for much of their product line. Taking the best of the good old days of motorcycling and bringing it into the 21st century.

And it works for all of them. You cannot love one company for it and bash the others without looking bad.

 

[BigCahuna]

I've got an idea. Instead of disagreeing with my viewpoints on this subject, why doesn't everybody post something that doesn't concern my viewpoint and attacking my choices or opinions? At least I try to stick to the topic.,,

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: grampi
...
There are two types of people in here; ...


You forgot type three, the Harley hater who turns every thread into a Harley bash and provides wrong "facts" or no "facts".

These are very similar to the Fram bashers that continually state that everyone knows how FRAMs failed right and left yet cannot provide a single example of said widespread problem...

I second whip:

Originally Posted By: whip

On a side note, is it possible to have a mature discusion about motorcycles without it turning into a [censored] match?


It would be nice if we could have an adult discussion about some the relative merits instead of it turning into a penile measuring contest about how bad Harley is... Even the Harley boards are doing a better job of it...

 

[nomochevys]

I kinda like this new Scout. The only thing that bugs me is how large the radiator is. I bet this thing will be a real sportster killer. I would love to see a test between the Scout, Honda CB1100, and Sportster 1200. All very different in how they go about things but a similar market. Maybe even throw in a Bonnieville even though it has a smaller engine.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
I've got an idea. Instead of disagreeing with my viewpoints on this subject, why doesn't everybody post something that doesn't concern my viewpoint and attacking my choices or opinions? At least I try to stick to the topic.,,


Don't come in to a thread bashing any brand that is not your favorite, use logic in your arguments, and don't practice hagiography and we can simply have a discussion on the true merits of a bike regardless of what badge is slapped on the tank.


As for the heads up between the CB1100, the Scout, and the Sporty 1200...I would like to see just how close to a VRSC in performance this new Indian is more than see it up up against the much smaller and weaker Triumph 865cc engine which has about 60 hp at the crank. I love my Triumph, but it wont set the world on fire and it is outgunned by a 1200 sportster in stock form.

 

[BigCahuna]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
I've got an idea. Instead of disagreeing with my viewpoints on this subject, why doesn't everybody post something that doesn't concern my viewpoint and attacking my choices or opinions? At least I try to stick to the topic.,,


Don't come in to a thread bashing any brand that is not your favorite, use logic in your arguments, and don't practice hagiography and we can simply have a discussion on the true merits of a bike regardless of what badge is slapped on the tank.


I'm sorry. I thought this post was about what I was talking about. So, whats your contribution about Indian motorcycles in this post?. Just because I don't agree, doesn't mean I can't post my opinion on it. You really need to stop worrying about what I post, and try to post something about the topic at hand. Hard as that may be.,,

 

[whip]

Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
I've got an idea. Instead of disagreeing with my viewpoints on this subject, why doesn't everybody post something that doesn't concern my viewpoint and attacking my choices or opinions? At least I try to stick to the topic.,,


Don't come in to a thread bashing any brand that is not your favorite, use logic in your arguments, and don't practice hagiography and we can simply have a discussion on the true merits of a bike regardless of what badge is slapped on the tank.


I'm sorry. I thought this post was about what I was talking about. So, whats your contribution about Indian motorcycles in this post?. Just because I don't agree, doesn't mean I can't post my opinion on it. You really need to stop worrying about what I post, and try to post something about the topic at hand. Hard as that may be.,,

Post like this are what keep me coming back to this forum. Priceless!