Like Tuning/Modding/DIY - Then Read This

[priler]

http://theautowire.com/2024/03/03/the-epa-is-targeting-aftermarket-car-modifications/

Keep politics out of it, however, this affects us all.

They are out of control and they're not the only agency out of control. If your thinking this will stop here, think again. Like all the rest, they start out as supposedly something good but over the years it becomes a way to control you.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

http://theautowire.com/2024/03/03/the-epa-is-targeting-aftermarket-car-modifications/

Keep politics out of it, however, this affects us all.

They are out of control and they're not the only agency out of control. If your thinking this will stop here, think again. Like all the rest, they start out as supposedly something good but over the years it becomes a way to control you.

Yellow journalism. The EPA relented last year at the request of some Congressmen who were probably getting pressured by SEMA. The announcement cited in the article is from 2020.

The fact is that it has ALWAYS been illegal to modify your pollution control system for an "on-road" vehicle regardless of the level of enforcement. Vendors no longer enjoy plausible deniability when they sell hundreds or thousands of catless downpipes or tunes.

Diesel Tuner Sentenced for Ignoring EPA | THE SHOP

A North Carolina truck tuner was sentenced to a year in prison for violating the Clean Air Act and selling thousands of emissions control system defeat

theshopmag.com

 

[dishdude]

That article is very slanted, but they do need to go after the idiots rolling coal, carolina squats, and ridiculous lifts.

 

[jetman]

But, they're from the government and are here to help

 

[wemay]

This...

 

[MrHorspwer]

http://theautowire.com/2024/03/03/the-epa-is-targeting-aftermarket-car-modifications/

Keep politics out of it, however, this affects us all.

They are out of control and they're not the only agency out of control. If your thinking this will stop here, think again. Like all the rest, they start out as supposedly something good but over the years it becomes a way to control you.

"Keep politics out of it," followed up by a very overtly political statement

Do you also start many of your sentences with "No offence," then go on to say something supremely offensive and think it's okay because of the preface?

 

[RooflessVW]

That article is so slanted I had to tilt my head to read it

 

[Dave9]

I have no sympathy for those who sell or use emissions defeat devices, with two exceptions:

1) Not used on public roads.

2) Not done just to improve performance or avoid buying available parts, rather if someone is hard up and in a corner about keeping a vehicle running and this would be a DIY hack, not what the EPA is targeting.

At the same time, I think the extra complexity of modern vehicles trying to eek out slightly better fuel economy has reached diminishing returns for those who don't drive a lot and that customers should have a choice instead of escalating federal mandates.

 

[Skippy722]

I blame all the people chopping cats off. If Dodge can make an emissions compliant 1,025HP V8 meet emissions then your obnoxious turbo 4 banger making 250whp with a tune will be just fine with cats.

 

[14.1 Grms]

I have no sympathy for those who sell or use emissions defeat devices, with two exceptions:

1) Not used on public roads.

To note: I'm not talking about people who delete diesels just to be able to roll coal; you can delete and tune a diesel without recreating a 1907 locomotive.

Why does whether a modified vehicle is used on public roads or not make any difference? If I take my diesel, delete it, and drive the exact same distance on private roads and offroad as I would on-road, what's the determining factor on "good vs bad"? There's no difference in terms of emissions released depending on whether I'm on a private gravel road or a public paved one.

Deleted diesels (and no, not the coal-rolling bro-truck stuff) get significantly better mileage than non-deleted ones. If my truck can get 25mpg deleted, vs 14mpg with the stock overheating torpedo of doom and destruction emissions system in place, is there a see-saw tipping point where increased mileage and reduced diesel consumption (and thus less emissions) and higher reliability make its argument against the nightmare of modern diesel emissions controls successfully?

 

[14.1 Grms]

I blame all the people chopping cats off. If Dodge can make an emissions compliant 1,025HP V8 meet emissions then your obnoxious turbo 4 banger making 250whp with a tune will be just fine with cats.

On street cars, cats vs no cats makes no difference in terms of power; I've dyno'd with and without and the difference was within the measurement noise of the dyno itself. It's mostly just a difference of sound with them installed vs not.

People still think exhaust backpressure is good, though, so there are a large number of people who think no cats (or "high-flow" cats - no such thing in modern vehicles) make more power. Smoothbrains.

 

[redhat]

I blame all the people chopping cats off. If Dodge can make an emissions compliant 1,025HP V8 meet emissions then your obnoxious turbo 4 banger making 250whp with a tune will be just fine with cats.

This is so true. I run factory cats on all of my performance/tuned LSx vehicles and they are great.

I personally do not like the hydrocarbon stink of a daily traffic vehicle with no cats.

Here’s my take on it, so many people chop off cats, or want to get rid of them altogether because they (A) allegedly hinder performance so terribly or (B) cost so much money, especially Cali or CARB cats. Why not, as a manufacturer consortium and or even with the aftermarket… Make cats more universal and/or make them a reasonable cost. Plus a little education. If you could market the less stink, Health reasons, clean air; and then the cost wasn’t so high. Maybe you’d have less people pulling them off.

Still doesn’t change the fact that they do alter the exhaust tone. And some people are really into that, just the tone that a cat delete does.

 

[Dave9]

Why does whether a modified vehicle is used on public roads or not make any difference? If I take my diesel, delete it, and drive the exact same distance on private roads and offroad as I would on-road, what's the determining factor on "good vs bad"? There's no difference in terms of emissions released depending on whether I'm on a private gravel road or a public paved one.

Deleted diesels (and no, not the coal-rolling bro-truck stuff) get significantly better mileage than non-deleted ones. If my truck can get 25mpg deleted, vs 14mpg with the stock overheating torpedo of doom and destruction emissions system in place, is there a see-saw tipping point where increased mileage and reduced diesel consumption (and thus less emissions) and higher reliability make its argument against the nightmare of modern diesel emissions controls successfully?

There is a huge difference, in that there are many vehicle requirements that don't have to be met for vehicles not on public roads. It's also about the freedom to do what you want on your own property.

Additionally, practically nobody is putting on the same # of miles on a private gravel road so this impact on emissions for the general public is much, much lower, probably less than 1%?

Your truck can get 25MPG deleted vs 14MPG w/o? I haven't researched it but that seems hard to believe and I'd bet that letting everyone do it, the average would be much, much lower, even a negative gain. That is one problem with laws /regulations/etc, that they have to apply to everyone even if it is only to limit the actions of a few that abuse their freedoms otherwise. Normally society has a say in them by voting but I concede that government has gotten too big and out of control, but I still think the sum total of emissions would increase substantially if we let everyone do emissions deletes.

 

[priler]

If the announcement is actually from 2020 then my apologies, i didn't know that.

 

[BrendanC]

i have no sympathy for the EPA. if someone with a diesel or gasoline vehicle has the emissions system fail, it should be the governments responsibility to replace it. every engine is capable of running without the emission’s systems therefore it is not mandatory for them to have them.

 

[14.1 Grms]

There is a huge difference, in that there are many vehicle requirements that don't have to be met for vehicles not on public roads. It's also about the freedom to do what you want on your own property.

Additionally, practically nobody is putting on the same # of miles on a private gravel road so this impact on emissions for the general public is much, much lower, probably less than 1%?

Your truck can get 25MPG deleted vs 14MPG w/o? I haven't researched it but that seems hard to believe and I'd bet that letting everyone do it, the average would be much, much lower, even a negative gain. That is one problem with laws /regulations/etc, that they have to apply to everyone even if it is only to limit the actions of a few that abuse their freedoms otherwise. Normally society has a say in them by voting but I concede that government has gotten too big and out of control, but I still think the sum total of emissions would increase substantially if we let everyone do emissions deletes.

It's not a huge difference - the entire point of emissions is ostensibly clean air, and clean air doesn't regulate itself between public and private property. We're not talking about lift kits or LED light bars, which could have an argument for on- vs off-road use.

So, removing emissions requirements on private roads that directly border public roads really doesn't make any sense in the argument of clean air. I know a lot of farmers who put 50-100 miles a day on their truck, and almost all of that is on dirt/gravel roads and pastures. If laws and regulations need to apply to everyone equally, why would that farmer be excluded from diesel emissions equipment but I'm not, if we both travel the same amount of distance each day; he just does it on a private road directly adjacent to a public road?

Yes, modern diesels can very easily break into the low- to mid-20s for mpg when all of the garbage emissions stuff has been deleted - and again, this isn't smoke-rolling tuning. I'm not quite sure why you think there would be a net negative gain; emissions equipment by design lowers fuel efficiency, by reducing the effectiveness of an engine to act as an air pump. Restrict the intake or exhaust of an air pump, its output drops; remove those restrictions, that output goes up. I'm not talking about removing catalytic converters, just the DPF system and its associated junk, including engine-clogging EGR systems.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

To note: I'm not talking about people who delete diesels just to be able to roll coal; you can delete and tune a diesel without recreating a 1907 locomotive.

Why does whether a modified vehicle is used on public roads or not make any difference? If I take my diesel, delete it, and drive the exact same distance on private roads and offroad as I would on-road, what's the determining factor on "good vs bad"? There's no difference in terms of emissions released depending on whether I'm on a private gravel road or a public paved one.

Deleted diesels (and no, not the coal-rolling bro-truck stuff) get significantly better mileage than non-deleted ones. If my truck can get 25mpg deleted, vs 14mpg with the stock overheating torpedo of doom and destruction emissions system in place, is there a see-saw tipping point where increased mileage and reduced diesel consumption (and thus less emissions) and higher reliability make its argument against the nightmare of modern diesel emissions controls successfully?

The carve out for "off road" is for racing and to a lesser degree agriculture. This why sellers of defeat devices tried to avoid responsibility by having buyers acknowledge that the item purchased was for "off road use only".

The real question is what makes you so special that you think you have the right to remove the emissions system components which, by virtue of taking ownership of the vehicle, agreed not to do? Oh and by the way you're not reducing emissions via increased MPGS. That's a lie that the sellers of these defeat devices use to justify their product. Yes you may save money on emissions system repairs but as I said, you signed up for it when you bought the vehicle. Do you willy-nilly renege on all contracts just because you don't like the terms?

 

[14.1 Grms]

The carve out for "off road" is for racing and to a lesser degree agriculture. This why sellers of defeat devices tried to avoid responsibility by having buyers acknowledge that the item purchased was for "off road use only".

The real question is what makes you so special that you think you have the right to remove the emissions system components which, by virtue of taking ownership of the vehicle, agreed not to do? Oh and by the way you're not reducing emissions via increased MPGS. That's a lie that the sellers of these defeat devices use to justify their product. Yes you may save money on emissions system repairs but as I said, you signed up for it when you bought the vehicle. Do you willy-nilly renege on all contracts just because you don't like the terms?

Agriculture doesn't get any relief - modern farm equipment is subject to the same emissions requirements as modern diesel trucks. It's actually driven up the cost for old, non-emissions tractors and the like significantly.

If you can identify any "contract" I signed when I bought my truck, aside from the one saying I agree to pay X for this vehicle, I'd be interested in seeing it, especially a "contract" where I agreed to perform no modifications to my personal property. I'll wait. Cue the Jeopardy theme.

Also, there's no "lie" in fuel mileage going up on deleted diesels, nor some mythical "defeat device" (not exactly where that term comes from, but not from anyone knowledgeable about actual deletes).

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Agriculture doesn't get any relief - modern farm equipment is subject to the same emissions requirements as modern diesel trucks. It's actually driven up the cost for old, non-emissions tractors and the like significantly.

If you can identify any "contract" I signed when I bought my truck, aside from the one saying I agree to pay X for this vehicle, I'd be interested in seeing it, especially a "contract" where I agreed to perform no modifications to my personal property. I'll wait. Cue the Jeopardy theme.

Also, there's no "lie" in fuel mileage going up on deleted diesels, nor some mythical "defeat device" (not exactly where that term comes from, but not from anyone knowledgeable about actual deletes).

I'm not talking farm equipment but a farm vehicle which is only used on the farm but the carve out as I said is mostly for racing.

Every owners manual contains verbiage that it's illegal to modify the emissions system of your vehicle. Sometimes there are stickers around the vehicle which have a similar warnings.

I never said it was a lie regarding an increase in mpg. The lie is that your overall emissions are reduced because of said increase in mpg. A defeat device can be a software tune or a tuning box wired into the DDE which codes out EGR and SCR. Another example would be a straight pipe though a hollowed out DPF.

 

[Bill Judson]

Vendors no longer enjoy plausible deniability when they sell hundreds or thousands of catless downpipes or tunes.

Yep, all they do is put on the packaging "for off road use only"

carolina squats

I had some bad tacos a while back and got the... carolina squats alright!

Do you also start many of your sentences with "No offence," then go on to say something supremely offensive and think it's okay because of the preface?

Yes, that the way to do it.

I blame all the people chopping cats off.

Meh, cats are not all they are cracked up to be.

The majority of this EPA stuff is BS anyway, it's not settled science that cars damage the environment.

In fact, I think it's now up to 1800 of the world's tops scientists and researchers that have signed the petition that there is No Climate Emergency. Read mo bout this at:

Climate Intelligence (CLINTEL) climate change and climate policy

Climate Intelligence (CLINTEL) is an independent foundation that operates in the fields of climate change and climate policy

clintel.org

About us - Clintel

Climate Intelligence (CLINTEL) is an independent foundation that operates in the fields of climate change and climate policy. CLINTEL was founded in 2019 by emeritus professor of geophysics Guus Berkhout and science journalist Marcel Crok. CLINTEL's main objective is to generate knowledge and...

clintel.org

The World Climate Declaration (Link to their PDF doc listing all the folks that signed this)

https://clintel.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/WCD-version-06272215121.pdf

The declaration was organized by Climate Intelligence, an independent
policy foundation founded in 2019 by Dutch emeritus professor of geophysics
Guus Berkhout and Dutch science journalist Marcel Crok.