Is Toyota 0W-20 SN made in heaven?
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Originally Posted By: tig1
This post is some sort of joke, right?
In respect to "Re: Is Toyota 0W-20 SN made in heaven? [Re: Gokhan]
This question was never answered.
This post is some sort of joke, right?
In respect to "Re: Is Toyota 0W-20 SN made in heaven? [Re: Gokhan]
This question was never answered.
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Originally Posted By: fpracha
So do we now have an actual NOACK volatility test result on the TGMO ? MGMO ?
Is the hths of 2.6 the actual tested hths value or is the SN grade lowest limit being assumed ?
As mentioned on the previous page of this thread, an independently test NOACK for the European made TGMO (also by Mobil) was 10.3%. Personally I think that could be low but it's not a particularly important spec' in a 20 grade oil anyway.
And yes you can of course assume the HTHSV will be the grade minimum of 2.6cP since the emphasis of the oil is to be as light as possible and still be a 20 grade oil.
So do we now have an actual NOACK volatility test result on the TGMO ? MGMO ?
Is the hths of 2.6 the actual tested hths value or is the SN grade lowest limit being assumed ?
As mentioned on the previous page of this thread, an independently test NOACK for the European made TGMO (also by Mobil) was 10.3%. Personally I think that could be low but it's not a particularly important spec' in a 20 grade oil anyway.
And yes you can of course assume the HTHSV will be the grade minimum of 2.6cP since the emphasis of the oil is to be as light as possible and still be a 20 grade oil.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
And yes you can of course assume the HTHSV will be the grade minimum of 2.6cP since the emphasis of the oil is to be as light as possible and still be a 20 grade oil.
So any shearing (e.g. comments made in the 0W-50 thread about one or another of the TGMO recipes losing 0.2 or 0.3), and the oil has sheared out of grade...handy bit of info
And yes you can of course assume the HTHSV will be the grade minimum of 2.6cP since the emphasis of the oil is to be as light as possible and still be a 20 grade oil.
So any shearing (e.g. comments made in the 0W-50 thread about one or another of the TGMO recipes losing 0.2 or 0.3), and the oil has sheared out of grade...handy bit of info
Considering the latest SN version of TGMO 0W-20 is one of the more shear stable 0W-20 oils available, your remarks don't have much relavence or point.
According to the MSDS, TGMO is pure Group III:
"Base oil severely refined": This is the common phrase for Group III oils.
On the other hand, according to the MSDS, Mobil 1 is a pure mix of PAO (Group IV) and Group V, with no Group III:
"Synthetic Base Stocks": ExxonMobil reserves the term synthetic base stock exclusively for its PAO (Group IV) and Group V base stocks, even though Group III oils are sold as fully synthetic to the end customers.
While the MSDS' are not necessarily honest, I think I believe them to a fair degree in this case.
You can access the ExxonMobil MSDS' here. Enter Mobil 1 or TGMO as search terms.
"Base oil severely refined": This is the common phrase for Group III oils.
On the other hand, according to the MSDS, Mobil 1 is a pure mix of PAO (Group IV) and Group V, with no Group III:
"Synthetic Base Stocks": ExxonMobil reserves the term synthetic base stock exclusively for its PAO (Group IV) and Group V base stocks, even though Group III oils are sold as fully synthetic to the end customers.
While the MSDS' are not necessarily honest, I think I believe them to a fair degree in this case.
You can access the ExxonMobil MSDS' here. Enter Mobil 1 or TGMO as search terms.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
According to the MSDS, TGMO is pure Group III:
On the other hand, according to the MSDS, Mobil 1 is a pure mix of PAO (Group IV) and Group V, with no Group III:
While the MSDS' are not necessarily honest, I think I believe them to a fair degree in this case.
This seems plausible enough (given the lack of other openly available declared information).
According to the MSDS, TGMO is pure Group III:
On the other hand, according to the MSDS, Mobil 1 is a pure mix of PAO (Group IV) and Group V, with no Group III:
While the MSDS' are not necessarily honest, I think I believe them to a fair degree in this case.
This seems plausible enough (given the lack of other openly available declared information).
Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
According to the MSDS, TGMO is pure Group III:
On the other hand, according to the MSDS, Mobil 1 is a pure mix of PAO (Group IV) and Group V, with no Group III:
While the MSDS' are not necessarily honest, I think I believe them to a fair degree in this case.
This seems plausible enough (given the lack of other openly available declared information).
I've now found out from this ExxonMobil presentation that Mobil 1 is a mixture of their exclusive Visom Group III+ base stocks and some Group V ester. However, Germany is the exception, as it's the only place in the world where they don't allow Group III base oils to be sold as synthetic.
So, TGMO 0W-20 SN and Mobil 1 are no that different in base-stock composition then. I don't know though if the TGMO has any Group V ester as Mobil 1 does and I also don't know if TGMO uses Visom Group III+ or some lower-quality Group III base stocks.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
According to the MSDS, TGMO is pure Group III:
On the other hand, according to the MSDS, Mobil 1 is a pure mix of PAO (Group IV) and Group V, with no Group III:
While the MSDS' are not necessarily honest, I think I believe them to a fair degree in this case.
This seems plausible enough (given the lack of other openly available declared information).
I've now found out from this ExxonMobil presentation that Mobil 1 is a mixture of their exclusive Visom Group III+ base stocks and some Group V ester. However, Germany is the exception, as it's the only place in the world where they don't allow Group III base oils to be sold as synthetic.
So, TGMO 0W-20 SN and Mobil 1 are no that different in base-stock composition then. I don't know though if the TGMO has any Group V ester as Mobil 1 does and I also don't know if TGMO uses Visom Group III+ or some lower-quality Group III base stocks.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
However, Germany is the exception, as it's the only place in the world where they don't allow Group III base oils to be sold as synthetic.
For this reason Mobil 1 is not sold as synthetic but synthetic hydrocarbon (SHC or SHC-synthetic) in Germany, synthetic hydrocarbon explicitly meaning Group III base stock.
However, Germany is the exception, as it's the only place in the world where they don't allow Group III base oils to be sold as synthetic.
For this reason Mobil 1 is not sold as synthetic but synthetic hydrocarbon (SHC or SHC-synthetic) in Germany, synthetic hydrocarbon explicitly meaning Group III base stock.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
So, TGMO 0W-20 SN and Mobil 1 are no that different in base-stock composition then. I don't know though if the TGMO has any Group V ester as Mobil 1 does and I also don't know if TGMO uses Visom Group III+ or some lower-quality Group III base stocks.
TGMO is reputed to have a top secrete additive pack that is shipped to Mobil by Toyota for the construction of this oil...
Sounds outlandish and far fetched, but it IS TGMO
So, TGMO 0W-20 SN and Mobil 1 are no that different in base-stock composition then. I don't know though if the TGMO has any Group V ester as Mobil 1 does and I also don't know if TGMO uses Visom Group III+ or some lower-quality Group III base stocks.
TGMO is reputed to have a top secrete additive pack that is shipped to Mobil by Toyota for the construction of this oil...
Sounds outlandish and far fetched, but it IS TGMO
Originally Posted By: rikstaker
So the OP can determine the base stock of an oil by smelling it?
You might, if you are around a lot of oils and have continuous experience. When I was in the Pro Audio field many years ago, I could easily tell you exactly what tape was in a bag by smell. The go-to open reel tape for studio use at the time was Scotch 456, but Maxell, TDK, etc all had distinctive smells. The smell was subtle enough, though, that the tape had to be in a bag for there to be enough "smell" to do the trick.
Human sense of smell is quite powerful, but typically needs a bit of training to determine subtle notes. But I would not be surprised to learn some could apply that to oil.
So the OP can determine the base stock of an oil by smelling it?
You might, if you are around a lot of oils and have continuous experience. When I was in the Pro Audio field many years ago, I could easily tell you exactly what tape was in a bag by smell. The go-to open reel tape for studio use at the time was Scotch 456, but Maxell, TDK, etc all had distinctive smells. The smell was subtle enough, though, that the tape had to be in a bag for there to be enough "smell" to do the trick.
Human sense of smell is quite powerful, but typically needs a bit of training to determine subtle notes. But I would not be surprised to learn some could apply that to oil.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
So, TGMO 0W-20 SN and Mobil 1 are no that different in base-stock composition then. I don't know though if the TGMO has any Group V ester as Mobil 1 does and I also don't know if TGMO uses Visom Group III+ or some lower-quality Group III base stocks.
With a VI of over 40 points higher for TGMO it's likely that TGMO is formulated with lighter base stock(s), in the 4cSt range.
The other main difference is that TGMO is using a very high VI multi-branched PMA type polymer VM.
M1 AFE is using a more conventional VM likely a copolymer with a higher treat rate.
So, TGMO 0W-20 SN and Mobil 1 are no that different in base-stock composition then. I don't know though if the TGMO has any Group V ester as Mobil 1 does and I also don't know if TGMO uses Visom Group III+ or some lower-quality Group III base stocks.
With a VI of over 40 points higher for TGMO it's likely that TGMO is formulated with lighter base stock(s), in the 4cSt range.
The other main difference is that TGMO is using a very high VI multi-branched PMA type polymer VM.
M1 AFE is using a more conventional VM likely a copolymer with a higher treat rate.
Originally Posted By: Johnny2Bad
Originally Posted By: rikstaker
So the OP can determine the base stock of an oil by smelling it?
You might, if you are around a lot of oils and have continuous experience. When I was in the Pro Audio field many years ago, I could easily tell you exactly what tape was in a bag by smell. The go-to open reel tape for studio use at the time was Scotch 456, but Maxell, TDK, etc all had distinctive smells. The smell was subtle enough, though, that the tape had to be in a bag for there to be enough "smell" to do the trick.
Human sense of smell is quite powerful, but typically needs a bit of training to determine subtle notes. But I would not be surprised to learn some could apply that to oil.
You can open a bottle of TGMO 0W-20 SN yourself and you'll find that the odor of TGMO 0W-20 SN is quite unusually intense. I had mistakenly speculated it as being as PAO but after all PAO should have little odor as it's a paraffinic compound.
The odor certainly seems to be of naphthalene. Alkylated naphthalene is a type of Group V base oil made by ExxonMobil. It has extremely beneficial properties in comparison to Group IV and other Group V base oils. They offer very high pressure - viscosity coefficients, meaning very thick oil film in the elastohydrodynamic-lubrication (EHL) region. They also offer excellent lubricity (ability of an oil to lubricate or stick to metal surfaces) and solubility. They are also extremely resistant to oxidization.
Therefore, my current thinking is that TGMO 0W-20 SN is a mix of Group III (perhaps Group III+) with Group V alkylated naphthalene. If it's true that TGMO 0W-20 SN has Group V alkylated naphthalene, this is yet another huge quality advantage of TGMO 0W-20 SN over other synthetics in the market, making it a uniquely top-quality oil.
Here is a discussion of alkylated naphthalene from a recent post of mine:
Alyklated naphthalene is a truly excellent Group V synthetic base oil, surpassing Group IV PAO and Group V esters in many ways. They are very stable and they have excellent P - V coefficients, even larger than Group I, comparable to naphthalene. They also have good lubricity and solubility. They don't suffer from potentially high wear problem of Group V esters (due to the ester's blocking of the AW/EP/FM additives). (See this reference.)
However, their viscosity indexes are very low. For example the the 5 cSt (@ 100 C) Exxon Mobil Synnestic 5 has a VI of only 74. (See the ExxonMobil synthetic formulations guide.) Because of this reason, they cannot be used on their own in multigrade oils, which would require too large concentrations of viscosity-index improvers. Also, interestingly, the previous ExxonMobil formulation guide examples had used an alyklated naphthalene in their PAO blends but the new guide mostly uses an ester in their PAO blends. (You don't want to have pure PAO base stocks [or even pure GTL or Group III] because of their poor lubrication properties as explained earlier.) Use of alkylated naphthalene vs. esters in the examples may be due to changing marketing strategies more than anything else.
Incidentally, TGMO 0W-20 SN seems to have a fairly significant concentration of alkylated naphthalene, as I can smell the rather intense odor of naphthalene from the bottle. I don't know if it's used as a base oil or a pour-point depressant. I would very much like to have alkylated naphthalene as a base oil in my motor oil because of its superior pressure - viscosity coefficient, lubricity, solubility, and other properties.
Originally Posted By: rikstaker
So the OP can determine the base stock of an oil by smelling it?
You might, if you are around a lot of oils and have continuous experience. When I was in the Pro Audio field many years ago, I could easily tell you exactly what tape was in a bag by smell. The go-to open reel tape for studio use at the time was Scotch 456, but Maxell, TDK, etc all had distinctive smells. The smell was subtle enough, though, that the tape had to be in a bag for there to be enough "smell" to do the trick.
Human sense of smell is quite powerful, but typically needs a bit of training to determine subtle notes. But I would not be surprised to learn some could apply that to oil.
You can open a bottle of TGMO 0W-20 SN yourself and you'll find that the odor of TGMO 0W-20 SN is quite unusually intense. I had mistakenly speculated it as being as PAO but after all PAO should have little odor as it's a paraffinic compound.
The odor certainly seems to be of naphthalene. Alkylated naphthalene is a type of Group V base oil made by ExxonMobil. It has extremely beneficial properties in comparison to Group IV and other Group V base oils. They offer very high pressure - viscosity coefficients, meaning very thick oil film in the elastohydrodynamic-lubrication (EHL) region. They also offer excellent lubricity (ability of an oil to lubricate or stick to metal surfaces) and solubility. They are also extremely resistant to oxidization.
Therefore, my current thinking is that TGMO 0W-20 SN is a mix of Group III (perhaps Group III+) with Group V alkylated naphthalene. If it's true that TGMO 0W-20 SN has Group V alkylated naphthalene, this is yet another huge quality advantage of TGMO 0W-20 SN over other synthetics in the market, making it a uniquely top-quality oil.
Here is a discussion of alkylated naphthalene from a recent post of mine:
Alyklated naphthalene is a truly excellent Group V synthetic base oil, surpassing Group IV PAO and Group V esters in many ways. They are very stable and they have excellent P - V coefficients, even larger than Group I, comparable to naphthalene. They also have good lubricity and solubility. They don't suffer from potentially high wear problem of Group V esters (due to the ester's blocking of the AW/EP/FM additives). (See this reference.)
However, their viscosity indexes are very low. For example the the 5 cSt (@ 100 C) Exxon Mobil Synnestic 5 has a VI of only 74. (See the ExxonMobil synthetic formulations guide.) Because of this reason, they cannot be used on their own in multigrade oils, which would require too large concentrations of viscosity-index improvers. Also, interestingly, the previous ExxonMobil formulation guide examples had used an alyklated naphthalene in their PAO blends but the new guide mostly uses an ester in their PAO blends. (You don't want to have pure PAO base stocks [or even pure GTL or Group III] because of their poor lubrication properties as explained earlier.) Use of alkylated naphthalene vs. esters in the examples may be due to changing marketing strategies more than anything else.
Incidentally, TGMO 0W-20 SN seems to have a fairly significant concentration of alkylated naphthalene, as I can smell the rather intense odor of naphthalene from the bottle. I don't know if it's used as a base oil or a pour-point depressant. I would very much like to have alkylated naphthalene as a base oil in my motor oil because of its superior pressure - viscosity coefficient, lubricity, solubility, and other properties.
Also note that the ExxonMobil formulation guide states on page 14 that "Fully synthetic PAO-based engine oils formulated with Synnestic 5 AN, instead of ester, showed improved oxidative stability in oxidative screening tests and significantly reduced cam wear in engine tests." AN (alkylated naphthalene) and esters are different types of Group V synthetic base oils. They are necessary to blend with PAO to overcome shortcomings of PAO (to improve PAO's poor lubricity etc.). This is saying that Group V alkylated naphthalene is a better base oil than Group V ester.
The ExxonMobil formulation guide then gives an example of 20% Group V alkylated naphthalene added to a Group III HDEO, which shows that the Group V alkylated naphthalene results in greatly reduced piston and ring deposits.
The ExxonMobil formulation guide then gives an example of 20% Group V alkylated naphthalene added to a Group III HDEO, which shows that the Group V alkylated naphthalene results in greatly reduced piston and ring deposits.
My musings
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...__o#Post3297942
And the results
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3024542
COULD indicate that the VIIs used in M1 0W-40 and TGMO are similar in composition and treat rate...particularly if one component of TGMO potentially has a really low VI.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...__o#Post3297942
And the results
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3024542
COULD indicate that the VIIs used in M1 0W-40 and TGMO are similar in composition and treat rate...particularly if one component of TGMO potentially has a really low VI.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The other main difference is that TGMO is using a very high VI multi-branched PMA type polymer VM.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Therefore, my current thinking is that TGMO 0W-20 SN is a mix of Group III (perhaps Group III+) with Group V alkylated naphthalene. If it's true that TGMO 0W-20 SN has Group V alkylated naphthalene, this is yet another huge quality advantage of TGMO 0W-20 SN over other synthetics in the market, making it a uniquely top-quality oil.
So if all these thoughts about TGMO are true, how do we feel it would stand up to high shear applications like turbocharging? Are the VII's suspect as a weak point? Does the Group V content add stability?
Curious as one application of mine is a turbocharged engine that is traditionally a little hard on oil's viscosity (Cruze 1.4T). Toyota isn't into turbos.
The other main difference is that TGMO is using a very high VI multi-branched PMA type polymer VM.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Therefore, my current thinking is that TGMO 0W-20 SN is a mix of Group III (perhaps Group III+) with Group V alkylated naphthalene. If it's true that TGMO 0W-20 SN has Group V alkylated naphthalene, this is yet another huge quality advantage of TGMO 0W-20 SN over other synthetics in the market, making it a uniquely top-quality oil.
So if all these thoughts about TGMO are true, how do we feel it would stand up to high shear applications like turbocharging? Are the VII's suspect as a weak point? Does the Group V content add stability?
Curious as one application of mine is a turbocharged engine that is traditionally a little hard on oil's viscosity (Cruze 1.4T). Toyota isn't into turbos.
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