As to premium gasoline.. I guess one of the biggest reasons I decided to use regular gasoline is because I read in the yahoo article they questioned the CEO of MErcedes Benz, who said upon being pressed on the issue, its okay to use regular gasoline in Mercedes Benz vehicle and it will not damage their engines. I mean after reading that, I started buying regular gasoline. ( i been trying for a half hour now to find the article online). I've read numerous other articles saying the same thing. However if you go to motorweek website,http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/goss/2613.shtml . You will see what happens if you dont use TOP TEIR Gasoline. So although I dont use premium gasoline I do use only TOP TEIR gasoline.
is Regular oil safe for '03 BMW?
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Originally Posted By: Tobin
As to premium gasoline.. I guess one of the biggest reasons I decided to use regular gasoline is because I read in the yahoo article they questioned the CEO of MErcedes Benz, who said upon being pressed on the issue, its okay to use regular gasoline in Mercedes Benz vehicle and it will not damage their engines. I mean after reading that, I started buying regular gasoline. ( i been trying for a half hour now to find the article online). I've read numerous other articles saying the same thing. However if you go to motorweek website,http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/goss/2613.shtml . You will see what happens if you dont use TOP TEIR Gasoline. So although I dont use premium gasoline I do use only TOP TEIR gasoline.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248867
Most of BMW's engines run relatively high compression ratios, which for our purposes is essentially akin to saying that they operate with high cylinder pressures. By running lower octane fuel with the factory specified compression ratio and ignition timings, you run a high risk of uncontrolled detonation. Of course, knowing that the average consumer is an idiot or that high octane fuel may not be available in all regions, BMW has installed knock sensors to adjust the engine's ignition timings if they detect conditions that would lead to premature detonation.
Thus, it is "safe" to run 87 octane in the car (I knew a friend who did just this for years in his 528i). However, this comes at the price of reduced fuel economy and power because the remapped timings are not as efficient as the factory defaults, obviously. And just be aware that if a knock sensor fails (given the failure rate of sensors in German cars, it's a valid concern), you could be in a spot of trouble.
As to premium gasoline.. I guess one of the biggest reasons I decided to use regular gasoline is because I read in the yahoo article they questioned the CEO of MErcedes Benz, who said upon being pressed on the issue, its okay to use regular gasoline in Mercedes Benz vehicle and it will not damage their engines. I mean after reading that, I started buying regular gasoline. ( i been trying for a half hour now to find the article online). I've read numerous other articles saying the same thing. However if you go to motorweek website,http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/goss/2613.shtml . You will see what happens if you dont use TOP TEIR Gasoline. So although I dont use premium gasoline I do use only TOP TEIR gasoline.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248867
Most of BMW's engines run relatively high compression ratios, which for our purposes is essentially akin to saying that they operate with high cylinder pressures. By running lower octane fuel with the factory specified compression ratio and ignition timings, you run a high risk of uncontrolled detonation. Of course, knowing that the average consumer is an idiot or that high octane fuel may not be available in all regions, BMW has installed knock sensors to adjust the engine's ignition timings if they detect conditions that would lead to premature detonation.
Thus, it is "safe" to run 87 octane in the car (I knew a friend who did just this for years in his 528i). However, this comes at the price of reduced fuel economy and power because the remapped timings are not as efficient as the factory defaults, obviously. And just be aware that if a knock sensor fails (given the failure rate of sensors in German cars, it's a valid concern), you could be in a spot of trouble.
Originally Posted By: Tobin
My car is better than a girl... there I said it!!
In some ways (not all), yes.
Now, take good care of her then. Pamper her. Synthetic oil is still cheaper than a diamond ring.
By the way, DIY = Do It Yourself
My car is better than a girl... there I said it!!
In some ways (not all), yes.
Now, take good care of her then. Pamper her. Synthetic oil is still cheaper than a diamond ring.
By the way, DIY = Do It Yourself
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Tobin
My car is better than a girl... there I said it!!
In some ways (not all), yes.
Now, take good care of her then. Pamper her. Synthetic oil is still cheaper than a diamond ring. :grin
The car? Or the girl? Well, the car doesn't complain "You have a girl, so you can buy me this and that." Unlike the girl. "You have a BMW, you can buy me this or that. You have money!!" To which I say. "Had, you mean..."
I kinda think that if I gave her, the girl, the syn oil, I'd be wearing it.
Originally Posted By: Tobin
My car is better than a girl... there I said it!!
In some ways (not all), yes.
Now, take good care of her then. Pamper her. Synthetic oil is still cheaper than a diamond ring. :grin
The car? Or the girl? Well, the car doesn't complain "You have a girl, so you can buy me this and that." Unlike the girl. "You have a BMW, you can buy me this or that. You have money!!" To which I say. "Had, you mean..."
I kinda think that if I gave her, the girl, the syn oil, I'd be wearing it.
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Synthetic oils don't oxidize (break down and thicken under high temperature), leave deposits (basically burn and leave hard cooked on gunk on engine surfaces), or break down to sludge (break down into soft, thick deposits) as easily as conventional oils because they are made up of more uniform molecules and typically have a higher flash point and better stability (fewer molecules of open chain, that contain sulfur compounds, break down, etc).
ACEA A3 is a specification that details a group of tests oil is put through for stability and performance in high temperature, high output gasoline engines. The 3.5 HT/HS requirement is the viscosity measured at 150 degrees C, which simulates the conditions in a loaded main bearing. Regular mineral or synthetic 5W-30 only has to be 2.9 cSt in this test, while an A3 oil must be thicker to protect better in those situations.
In that BMW engine you have the combination of all the worst high temperature conditions, coupled with high load which requires a higher viscosity oil (15W-40 mineral oil for diesels, a 5W-40 for diesel engines or an A3 oil).
The Longlife-01 specification is based on fuel with the same sulfur level as the US's current fuel (Longlife-04 is for low sulfur fuel used in Europe, which is easier on the oil). BMW has tested it to meet all of the requirements of their long service intervals based on the oil life meter, meet all of the requirements of the engine it is specified for as far as high and low temperature protection, deposit control and viscosity.
The simplest choice to make is go down to Wal-Mart and pick up Mobil 1 0W-40, go to a parts place and buy the filter, and change it yourself. In your engine, if you keep a reasonable interval, any A3 oil or 5W-40 synthetic heavy duty engine oil (CJ-4 rated) should serve you well as they will meet most of the requirements of the LL-01 oils.
ACEA A3 is a specification that details a group of tests oil is put through for stability and performance in high temperature, high output gasoline engines. The 3.5 HT/HS requirement is the viscosity measured at 150 degrees C, which simulates the conditions in a loaded main bearing. Regular mineral or synthetic 5W-30 only has to be 2.9 cSt in this test, while an A3 oil must be thicker to protect better in those situations.
In that BMW engine you have the combination of all the worst high temperature conditions, coupled with high load which requires a higher viscosity oil (15W-40 mineral oil for diesels, a 5W-40 for diesel engines or an A3 oil).
The Longlife-01 specification is based on fuel with the same sulfur level as the US's current fuel (Longlife-04 is for low sulfur fuel used in Europe, which is easier on the oil). BMW has tested it to meet all of the requirements of their long service intervals based on the oil life meter, meet all of the requirements of the engine it is specified for as far as high and low temperature protection, deposit control and viscosity.
The simplest choice to make is go down to Wal-Mart and pick up Mobil 1 0W-40, go to a parts place and buy the filter, and change it yourself. In your engine, if you keep a reasonable interval, any A3 oil or 5W-40 synthetic heavy duty engine oil (CJ-4 rated) should serve you well as they will meet most of the requirements of the LL-01 oils.
Originally Posted By: Trajan
The car? Or the girl?
The car, of course.
The car? Or the girl?
The car, of course.
I hear you on the performance/fuel economy of the car not being as efficient. Haven't really tested out the premium gasoline to know the big difference. I think Im going to do an experiment while the gasoline prices are relatively low. Ill let you know how many miles i got on a tank of gases comparing both grades of gasoline. And yes thanks for bring that to my attention, I will be more tuned to any symptoms of knocking... that would totally suck if the fuel sensor fails!
WHATS YOUR THOUGHTS ON TOP TEIR GASOLINE???
WHATS YOUR THOUGHTS ON TOP TEIR GASOLINE???
too bad cars dont have parts like a girl
I use either BP with invigorate or Shell V-Power. I get better MPG with Shell, but BP is closer.
If the knock sensor fails, it could very well be unpleasent. Only guessing, but I imagine things like holes in pistons?
Really though, Premium isn't that much more than regular. In many places around here, it's .20-.30 cents more. And because of the lower performance/mpg, you're not really saving anything.
If the knock sensor fails, it could very well be unpleasent. Only guessing, but I imagine things like holes in pistons?
Really though, Premium isn't that much more than regular. In many places around here, it's .20-.30 cents more. And because of the lower performance/mpg, you're not really saving anything.
Originally Posted By: Tobin
Originally Posted By: bretfraz
If you plan to follow the on board oil life monitor, and change the oil when the maintenance indicator comes on, you need to use an oil specific to BMW's factory specs. I believe that is BMW LongLife-01. Check your owners manual to be sure.
So, the total cost for parts alone is around $55-60. Now you can see why the dealer charges $100 for an oil change when you factor in labor rates.
One idea is to buy the parts yourself, stock up when you find a sale, and take your car to an oil change place and see if they will do the oil change using your parts at a discounted rate. You might be able to have it done for $75, parts and labor. Not a big savings but it's something, right?
Beyond taking it to the dealer or an oil change place that uses the correct oil, your only choice is to DIY.
What does BMW LongLife 01 mean? What is the function and why should I only buy Synthetic oil with this approval approval.
I didnt think of buying the parts and taking it to a garage to do an oil change, thats a good idea. That is helpful in cutting down the price.
BMW LL-01 is an oil specification created by BMW to meet specific oil performance criteria. BMW designs and engineers their cars to deliver a high level of performance and capability, and they have specified motor oils to ensure their performance standards are met.
BMW has not published a list of their criteria AFAIK, but I believe it encompasses things like:
*Extended oil drain intervals (the maintenance indicator is directly related to this spec)
*Adequate protection in a wide variety of weather & driving conditions
*Lowered exhaust emissions
*Improved fuel economy
Oil producers submit their products to BMW for testing and approval. You can see what oils they've approved for North America here: BMW USA oil approval document
Originally Posted By: bretfraz
If you plan to follow the on board oil life monitor, and change the oil when the maintenance indicator comes on, you need to use an oil specific to BMW's factory specs. I believe that is BMW LongLife-01. Check your owners manual to be sure.
So, the total cost for parts alone is around $55-60. Now you can see why the dealer charges $100 for an oil change when you factor in labor rates.
One idea is to buy the parts yourself, stock up when you find a sale, and take your car to an oil change place and see if they will do the oil change using your parts at a discounted rate. You might be able to have it done for $75, parts and labor. Not a big savings but it's something, right?
Beyond taking it to the dealer or an oil change place that uses the correct oil, your only choice is to DIY.
What does BMW LongLife 01 mean? What is the function and why should I only buy Synthetic oil with this approval approval.
I didnt think of buying the parts and taking it to a garage to do an oil change, thats a good idea. That is helpful in cutting down the price.
BMW LL-01 is an oil specification created by BMW to meet specific oil performance criteria. BMW designs and engineers their cars to deliver a high level of performance and capability, and they have specified motor oils to ensure their performance standards are met.
BMW has not published a list of their criteria AFAIK, but I believe it encompasses things like:
*Extended oil drain intervals (the maintenance indicator is directly related to this spec)
*Adequate protection in a wide variety of weather & driving conditions
*Lowered exhaust emissions
*Improved fuel economy
Oil producers submit their products to BMW for testing and approval. You can see what oils they've approved for North America here: BMW USA oil approval document
Originally Posted By: Tobin
WHATS YOUR THOUGHTS ON TOP TEIR GASOLINE???
The higher the octane, the harder it is to burn. I'm no expert, but I believe in higher compression engines, low octane fuel gets burned before the spark and you use more fuel as a result. You're not really saving. Higher octane is made to match the timing, thus provide better performance. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.
WHATS YOUR THOUGHTS ON TOP TEIR GASOLINE???
The higher the octane, the harder it is to burn. I'm no expert, but I believe in higher compression engines, low octane fuel gets burned before the spark and you use more fuel as a result. You're not really saving. Higher octane is made to match the timing, thus provide better performance. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.
Top Tier isn't related to octane. It's detergent in the gas.
BMW, GM, Toyota, and I think, Honda, recommend it. Ford recommends BP, who claim theirs is as good as TTG.
http://www.gm.com/corporate/responsibility/environment/news/2006/top_tier_detergent_gas_050906.jsp
BMW, GM, Toyota, and I think, Honda, recommend it. Ford recommends BP, who claim theirs is as good as TTG.
http://www.gm.com/corporate/responsibility/environment/news/2006/top_tier_detergent_gas_050906.jsp
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Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
Originally Posted By: Tobin
WHATS YOUR THOUGHTS ON TOP TEIR GASOLINE???
The higher the octane, the harder it is to burn. I'm no expert, but I believe in higher compression engines, low octane fuel gets burned before the spark and you use more fuel as a result. You're not really saving. Higher octane is made to match the timing, thus provide better performance. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.
That's my understanding. Higher octane fuel can withstand higher combustion chamber temps before burning. The reason low octane fuels detonate/pre-ignite in some cars is because the combustion chambers temps are so high, the fuel burns uncontrollably before the spark plug can ignite it.
High compression engines = high combustion chamber temps = the need for higher octane fuels that have a burn point at higher temps.
Originally Posted By: Tobin
WHATS YOUR THOUGHTS ON TOP TEIR GASOLINE???
The higher the octane, the harder it is to burn. I'm no expert, but I believe in higher compression engines, low octane fuel gets burned before the spark and you use more fuel as a result. You're not really saving. Higher octane is made to match the timing, thus provide better performance. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.
That's my understanding. Higher octane fuel can withstand higher combustion chamber temps before burning. The reason low octane fuels detonate/pre-ignite in some cars is because the combustion chambers temps are so high, the fuel burns uncontrollably before the spark plug can ignite it.
High compression engines = high combustion chamber temps = the need for higher octane fuels that have a burn point at higher temps.
Today's engine ignite the fuel before it reaches top dead center to increase the overall performance and efficiency. How much can it advance is a function of the "dynamic" compression ratio (for a particular rpm and throttle / air flow) and the octane rating of the fuel.
If your car is designed to run on high octane fuel but you put in low octane, then it will still run but at a retarded timing. If the retard is low, you won't lose much. But if the retard is high, to a point of safety mode, then it could really lose out on fuel economy and performance.
Is it worth it and will it save you money? try it and find out. Most say that it won't save you anything when the fuel price is high but difference between premium and regular is low.
If your car is designed to run on high octane fuel but you put in low octane, then it will still run but at a retarded timing. If the retard is low, you won't lose much. But if the retard is high, to a point of safety mode, then it could really lose out on fuel economy and performance.
Is it worth it and will it save you money? try it and find out. Most say that it won't save you anything when the fuel price is high but difference between premium and regular is low.
BMW engine sure "feel" like they work effortlessly. But from this thread it sounds like they work pretty hard to feel the way they do, compared to a lot of other engines out there. IMO if it were my car and was trying to save some cash I would get the least-expensive oil that meets the specs, does not have to be synthetic unless you are doing BMW-recommended oci's.
Octane needs depend on driving style. My mom can drive a super car on regs and never know the difference. If I drove it, I'd miss out on the smooth power from more advance and slower burn.Compression ratio means nothing unless you are fully charging the cylinder. ACTUAL pressures depend not on the geometric volume, but the mass of air+fuel the cyl is charged with. Pre-ignition is only approached with a completely charged cyl, via an open throttle plate.
As for synth oil in this non-turbo engine...why? Do we really think a good 10w-40 dino like Havoline or PZ would cause any problems at short intervals? Synth costs 2-3 times as much as dino, you'd have to run it 2-3 times as long to "break even". Well, dino at 5-6k is better than synth at 10-12-15k. That's like saying synth with 6000 miles alredy on it is better than fresh dino!
I like changing my oil (pretty much), but for someone who wants longer intervals, like our friend, synth is a good way to go. He can go 8000-9000 instead of 5000-6000, safely.
imo, it's all about how often people want to change oil, pick an oil that lets you go the miles anticipated in that time and done.
As for synth oil in this non-turbo engine...why? Do we really think a good 10w-40 dino like Havoline or PZ would cause any problems at short intervals? Synth costs 2-3 times as much as dino, you'd have to run it 2-3 times as long to "break even". Well, dino at 5-6k is better than synth at 10-12-15k. That's like saying synth with 6000 miles alredy on it is better than fresh dino!
I like changing my oil (pretty much), but for someone who wants longer intervals, like our friend, synth is a good way to go. He can go 8000-9000 instead of 5000-6000, safely.
imo, it's all about how often people want to change oil, pick an oil that lets you go the miles anticipated in that time and done.
Originally Posted By: Tobin
Well pete.. Its like this, you can do the math in several ways and I guess regular oil is still going to be cheaper but not by much. So i get that now.
And no I dont run my car on premium. I run it on regular gasoline as I read in a yahoo article and in readers digest that most cars made after the 90's have fuel sensors which can detect what ever gasoline gets put in to the vehicle. So in the olden days it was true putting in the wrong type of gasoline would cause engine knocking but with fuel sensor technology that is no longer true. I've been using regular gasoline since last november and havent noticed any problems or symptoms of engine knocking. So i assumed what I read was true. Am I wrong on this?
There are no "fuel sensors" in a gasoline vehicle. There is a knock sensor that detects detonation. It's reactive meaning the engine has to knock before it can pull back timing to save itself. These are to save the engine if the owner accidentally fills up with regular gas, not to endure a lifetime of low octane gas. In my experience, they pull timing for maybe a second before they put it back in, the engine knocks again and it pulls it again over and over. This is sometimes felt as surging. What you get is less knock than an engine with no knock sensor but it's still knocking.
Once it pulls timing, gas mileage and power drop and exhaust gas temperatures go up. I've proven over thousands of miles that it's cheaper to run premium in my TL than regular. If the car doesn't require premium, there's no advantage to use it from a performance perspective but if it's a high compression high performance engine with the timing maps designed around premium it will definately be beneficial in mpg, power, and engine life to use it.
Keep in mind that just because you can't hear it with your ears doesn't mean it's not there.
Well pete.. Its like this, you can do the math in several ways and I guess regular oil is still going to be cheaper but not by much. So i get that now.
And no I dont run my car on premium. I run it on regular gasoline as I read in a yahoo article and in readers digest that most cars made after the 90's have fuel sensors which can detect what ever gasoline gets put in to the vehicle. So in the olden days it was true putting in the wrong type of gasoline would cause engine knocking but with fuel sensor technology that is no longer true. I've been using regular gasoline since last november and havent noticed any problems or symptoms of engine knocking. So i assumed what I read was true. Am I wrong on this?
There are no "fuel sensors" in a gasoline vehicle. There is a knock sensor that detects detonation. It's reactive meaning the engine has to knock before it can pull back timing to save itself. These are to save the engine if the owner accidentally fills up with regular gas, not to endure a lifetime of low octane gas. In my experience, they pull timing for maybe a second before they put it back in, the engine knocks again and it pulls it again over and over. This is sometimes felt as surging. What you get is less knock than an engine with no knock sensor but it's still knocking.
Once it pulls timing, gas mileage and power drop and exhaust gas temperatures go up. I've proven over thousands of miles that it's cheaper to run premium in my TL than regular. If the car doesn't require premium, there's no advantage to use it from a performance perspective but if it's a high compression high performance engine with the timing maps designed around premium it will definately be beneficial in mpg, power, and engine life to use it.
Keep in mind that just because you can't hear it with your ears doesn't mean it's not there.
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Octane needs depend on driving style. My mom can drive a super car on regs and never know the difference. If I drove it, I'd miss out on the smooth power from more advance and slower burn.Compression ratio means nothing unless you are fully charging the cylinder. ACTUAL pressures depend not on the geometric volume, but the mass of air+fuel the cyl is charged with. Pre-ignition is only approached with a completely charged cyl, via an open throttle plate.
Not completely true. There is always more timing at low load. If the timing maps were designed around premium gas it can easily knock at partial throttle. My 11.0:1 TL is notorious for part throttle/light throttle knock.
Octane needs depend on driving style. My mom can drive a super car on regs and never know the difference. If I drove it, I'd miss out on the smooth power from more advance and slower burn.Compression ratio means nothing unless you are fully charging the cylinder. ACTUAL pressures depend not on the geometric volume, but the mass of air+fuel the cyl is charged with. Pre-ignition is only approached with a completely charged cyl, via an open throttle plate.
Not completely true. There is always more timing at low load. If the timing maps were designed around premium gas it can easily knock at partial throttle. My 11.0:1 TL is notorious for part throttle/light throttle knock.
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