How to tell if an oil is Truly synthetic?

[Trav]

I am German and my home is in Germany. I also have a home in the US, but that is irrelevant.
That one foreign country as you put it invented synthetic motor oil so i think they know better than anyone what it's definition is, don't you?

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
First let me state that I disagree with the premise that GP III base oils are not synthetic.

I disagree with that 100%, so do the German courts even when appealed. Its earth oil no matter what is done to it.
That's not to say i cant perform close to true synthetics but its still lipstick on a pig no matter how you spin it.


Yeah, but there are significant loopholes in the German labeling requirement that allow substatial Grp III content in any finished oil, even if it is labeled as full synthtetic.
What matters is the performance certs an oil can meet, and German car makers have some of the toughest in the world.
If an oil can meet current Mercedes, BMW and VW gas engine specs, I'd say it's a pretty good oil, without regard to the basestocks used to make it.
What I'm trying to say is that it really doesn't matter whether a finished oil is based on any given basestock.
What matters is how it actually performs.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
First let me state that I disagree with the premise that GP III base oils are not synthetic.

I disagree with that 100%, so do the German courts even when appealed. Its earth oil no matter what is done to it.
That's not to say i cant perform close to true synthetics but its still lipstick on a pig no matter how you spin it.


No matter what grp an oil is or isn't, the origin of the lubricant still comes from the ground.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
Now you're contradicting yourself.

Absolutely not, it is earth oil, that's the pig and refining it to a state where it can compete with synthetics is the lipstick.
Come on Caterham you of all people know better than to call a Hydrocracked/Hydroisomerized dino synthetic.
Yes it can be GP IV or V and be considered synthetic in Germany but not GP III

I am not going to argue with you, if you choose to perpetuate that falsehood go ahead.
I said it's possible it performs similar but what you are saying is a misuse of the terminology generally reserved for marketing.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
Yeah, but there are significant loopholes in the German labeling requirement that allow substatial Grp III content in any finished oil,

False not if its labelled full synthetic there isn't.
Part synthetic or of synthetic basis yes.

 

[GMorg]

By all definitions related to the chemistry of synthesis, GTL is synthetic and is currently being characterized at Group III. Functionally, 'natural gas to PAO' is conceptually very similar to 'gas to liquid'. From the German perspective, is GTL still earth gas?

I would not seek the advise of the ghosts of the Wright brothers to define a modern airplane. In addition, I would not seek the advise of their descendants for the definition either. Although the role and importance of historical German figures in chemistry is unquestionable, it is difficult for me to automatically view German regulations as the only authoritative position of chemistry or synthetic oil.

We've been here before guys...

 

[Capa]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I am German and my home is in Germany. I also have a home in the US, but that is irrelevant.
That one foreign country as you put it invented synthetic motor oil so i think they know better than anyone what it's definition is, don't you?


My point is, if we were in Germany, you argument would have some weight. We are not and group 3 and up are considered full/true synthetics.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
We are not and group 3 and up are considered full/true synthetics

Even Mobil went to court in the US claiming GP III was not a synthetic.
It was a marketing scheme nothing more to use the word synthetic on inferior (at that time) products.

Read this before jumping all over me..

http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief10 - Oil Base Stocks.pdf

 

[BigBird57]

With the advent of the GF5 spec most all US oil companies have reformulated their line up with Group III basestocks.
They are using a marketing term to refer their new formula as fully synthetic. That is why I will use whatever is on sale.
This has happened to the boutique brands as well.
No more brand loyalty for me.

 

[Capa]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
We are not and group 3 and up are considered full/true synthetics

Even Mobil went to court in the US claiming GP III was not a synthetic.
It was a marketing scheme nothing more to use the word synthetic on inferior (at that time) products.

Read this before jumping all over me..

http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief10 - Oil Base Stocks.pdf


Again, if we were in the 90's or before, your argument would have some weight.

 

[Shannow]

I beleive in judging on performance, but I also don't beleive that "restructured", versus built up molecules are synthetic.

If the argument is that "performance" defines synthetic, then we need a new word, because synthetic intimates a source, not a performance.

 

[Trav]

Do you even know what my argument is? It certainly doesn't appear so.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
I beleive in judging on performance, but I also don't beleive that "restructured", versus built up molecules are synthetic.

If the argument is that "performance" defines synthetic, then we need a new word, because synthetic intimates a source, not a performance.

Thank you for putting it much clearer than i was able to.

 

[Doc Holiday]

Originally Posted By: NHGUY
Thanks to the "powers that be",a Group III dino is classed as "Full Synthetic",even though it still comes out of the ground,and when the wells run dry...no more Group I,II,III.Of course when the wells finally run dry,no more gasoline or diesel either...


Those powers at be....they be Castrol. Castrol started it. Mobil took them to court and lost. Now Mobil too jumped in with they Super Syn. Mobil.

 

[Thax]

I fail to see the point here , why does it matter if a oil has a Grp III or IV or V basestock as long as it performs satisfactory in the correct application it is irrelevant. I dont buy "Synthetic" oil based on what group basestock it is rather on the relevant specs needed for the vehicle it is going into. Besides with group III ,III+ and GTL basestocks being very solid performers is it even necessary to spend extra cash on group IV or V boutique oils ?

 

[teddyboy]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: teddyboy
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
A low NOACK percentage is about the easiest way.

CATERHAM: What do the NOACK percentages for M1 0W20 and 0W40 tell us about their basestocks?

First let me state that I disagree with the premise that GP III base oils are not synthetic. One really should be looking at the oil's performance spec's not it's base oil constituents to judge an oil. For example there are some GP III based oils in the lighter grades that I prefer to PAO based oils.

Antway, M1 0W-40 has a NOACK of 8.8%.
I don't know what it is for M1 0W-20 but having the lowest MRV in the industry is a indicator that it contains a high percentage of low molecular weight PAO base oils.


I wasn't attributing the Group III isn't synthetic belief to you. In fact I think I've previously heard you say otherwise. I was just curious if in your opinion the M1 0W oils had more Group IV as some people around here contend. I tend to agree with the perspective that you should look at the oil's performance rather than what's in the base stock. PAO obviously has some desirable qualities but so do Groups III and V. One of the things I've learned from you, Doug Hillary, Johnny and some others is to pay attention to how the oil performs.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
Besides with group III ,III+ and GTL basestocks being very solid performers is it even necessary to spend extra cash on group IV or V boutique oils ?

No of course not modern GP III oils have proven the do a fine job but that is not the argument, the argument has boiled down to terminology.
Some posters have decided to equate performance with chemistry.
So here is the hypothetical question poised in the article i linked to..
If water performed as well or even better as PAO is water now a synthetic? How about castor oil, olive oil or even owl urine for that matter?

My argument is truth in advertising nothing more or less. If they said for example "performs as well or better than synthetic" i have no argument as long as they had the data to substantiate the claim.

 

[antonmnster]

It's so simple: if it's group III it's not synthetic. That's not to say it's a bad oil and can't protect your car. It can be lots of things, but calling it synthetic is just a total distortion of reality and science (something that Americans are REALLY good at but I digress).

If it's group IV+, it's actually synthetic.

Why is that so hard?

 

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: antonmnster
It's so simple: if it's group III it's not synthetic. That's not to say it's a bad oil and can't protect your car. It can be lots of things, but calling it synthetic is just a total distortion of reality and science (something that Americans are REALLY good at but I digress).

If it's group IV+, it's actually synthetic.

Why is that so hard?


x2. There's the scientific answer. What's more to discuss?

 

[Zeus103363]

Reading this thread can really make one start to think of all the marketing [censored] when dealing with synthetic motor oil. Do I dare even believe synthetic is synthetic, but it is actually just a long life motor oil, and dino is a standard duty motor oil? Oil "X" uses a 100% synthetic base..it was a PAO but now its base oil is something that preforms like a synthetic. But in all reality there is no synthetic motor oil at all. I like synthetic and have used mobil 1 for years before switching to PP because M1 was getting to expensive, but I had never had an oil related problem in my life , dino or synthetic. I think I may drop synthetic all together and use dino and save some money. How many more miles will my engine go using "so-called synthetic" vs dino oil that both have the same service rating approved by the API?