Help with theatre room layout...

[TWG1572]

This may be somewhat off topic, but hopefully closely enough related to consumer electronics that I can get a few responses. I know there are quite a few knowledgeable sound people on here. I’m trying to find a “good” layout for my basement sound system. I’ve asked this same question on AVS and got radio silence. Zero, zilch, nada. I’m not sure if this is an unanswerable question, too basic, or what. But I’d appreciate any and all input!.

I’ve attached a picture of my basement which is pretty close to scale. I'm currently setup with Monitor 70 floorstanders (red boxes), and an entertainment center with a Polk CS2 center (green line). The orange stars are where my ceiling is wired for surrounds, but none are there yet. My next project is a sub, which I am seriously considering DIY’ing. Based on the reading I’ve done, one sub has grown into two, I now need a dedicated amp, etc… My head is reeling. I think I may do two 15” Stereo Integrity HT sealed enclosures, but not sure yet.

Anyway, back to my room. My couch/chair is about 14 foot from my TV, and my front speakers are spread about 10 feet apart due to the gas fireplace being in the way. Which leaves the person sitting in the chair is pretty much out of any "sweet spot" sound wise. The chair is OK, but not great.

I'm considering moving the speakers to where the purple boxes are, which would put them 15' apart. It seems like widening them would get me a larger sound field, which should be beneficial. If I do the equilateral triangle thing with string, I have to push the couch back a couple feet. That’s probably ok, I’ve got a Panny 60ST60 . But I’m definitely pushing my couch even further from optimal viewing distance. I'd also move the entertainment center closer to the fireplace to center it between the new speaker locations.

Thoughts? Will this help, or am I just creating a new problem in an attempt to solve an existing one? I’m not 100% sure that having my speakers spread so wide is a good thing. And they are going to be close to the wall, which isn’t optimal. But unless I tear out the fireplace (wife isn’t buying that) I’m pretty much stuck with less than perfect layout. I'd thought about spinning everything so it faced the bar, but then no one in the rest of the basement could see the TV. I pretty much have to have it where it is.

 

[Quattro Pete]

I would tend to think that having all three front speakers (L/C/R) lined up on the same line would be best, so the way you have it now. But I guess the only way to tell for sure is to experiment and see what sounds best to YOU.

If you do switch things around like you plan, you'll need to program in new speaker distances in your receiver. You will also need to bump up the signal volume on your center channel (or reduce signal volume on L/R speakers), to balance things out.

What I would do is leave the speakers where they are, and just bring the couch closer to the screen. This in itself will change the shape of the triangle and help achieve better stereo effect.

 

[bepperb]

To move the speakers out of the same plane isn't ideal, though most receivers with a self setup can compensate for this (such as Audyssey). I probably would try it the purple way, though. When panning shots move a speaking actor from one side to the other it might sound odd if the distance calibration isn't correct.

I'm surprised no one at AVS forum was all over this. In the rec/game room thread is probably where this would go. To be honest most setups are a compromise unless you build a dedicated room, that's why they are so common over there. I designed/built my basement and I'm still faced with a few not-optimal speaker locations (and I don't have movie theater like wallcoverings... etc).

 

[dparm]

You do not want the speakers in a perfect line. If you look at various audio companies' recommendations/requirements, they almost always place them on the circumference of a circle.

The specific angles will vary based upon the speaker design and whose audio spec you want to meet. Having a room that is shaped too perfectly and putting speakers in perfect lines will actually give a very poor soundstage.

14' is way too far for that size TV. You should be about 8-9 feet. It will feel very close, yes, but otherwise you are basically wasting a 1080p picture.

Sitting closer should also help with tighter speaker placement. Does your amp have Audyssey? If so, which Audyssey implementation does it have?

Also, you made no mention of the room's square footage, but it looks to be around 600-650 sq ft? How tall are the ceilings? What sort of wall treatments and other furniture is down there (specifically, behind the couch)? Knowing these things will help determine the necessary amplifier power AND the subwoofer size. Just ballparking it, but if you want strong bass in a room of that size you'll need a lot of oomph in a single 15" sub, or two 10/12" subs.

 

[TWG1572]

Originally Posted By: bepperb

I'm surprised no one at AVS forum was all over this. In the rec/game room thread is probably where this would go.


That may explain my issue. I was in the audio theory and setup forum. I scanned the forums till I came to one where it seemed like this would fit, and where I saw a couple similar threads. The game room one was further down the page.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: TWG1572
Originally Posted By: bepperb

I'm surprised no one at AVS forum was all over this. In the rec/game room thread is probably where this would go.


That may explain my issue. I was in the audio theory and setup forum. I scanned the forums till I came to one where it seemed like this would fit, and where I saw a couple similar threads. The game room one was further down the page.



AVS is pretty hit-or-miss. Sometimes they will completely ignore some good discussions, and other times they will get bogged down in the most inane arguments ever. I rarely post on there anymore.

 

[TWG1572]

Originally Posted By: dparm
14' is way too far for that size TV. You should be about 8-9 feet. It will feel very close, yes, but otherwise you are basically wasting a 1080p picture.
I'm with you. It's a bit of a compromise to allow my kids enough room to play in front, and not make it look like all the furniture in the basement is clustered into 1/3 the area. The reality is we get a max of 720p on DirecTv and our internet is so slow that Netflix only hits 480 on a good day. We watch BluRays maybe once a week, less in the summer.

Originally Posted By: dparm
Sitting closer should also help with tighter speaker placement. Does your amp have Audyssey? If so, which Audyssey implementation does it have?
It’s a Yamaha RX 675. I don’t have any complaints about it, but now that I’m better educated I can see what a plus Audyssey is. There’s always next time…

Originally Posted By: dparm
Also, you made no mention of the room's square footage, but it looks to be around 600-650 sq ft? How tall are the ceilings? What sort of wall treatments and other furniture is down there (specifically, behind the couch)? Knowing these things will help determine the necessary amplifier power AND the subwoofer size. Just ballparking it, but if you want strong bass in a room of that size you'll need a lot of oomph in a single 15" sub, or two 10/12" subs.
You are pretty much on the money with your 650 sq ft calculation. What the picture doesn’t show is what’s behind the gap on the top behind the couch. There is a 9x9 hallway type area there. If you turn left, you go up the stairs. If you turn right you go into a 120 sq ft room with French doors. These doors are usually open. So the sub is “seeing” close to 850 sqft. There are minimal room furnishings in the remainder of the main room though. Eliptical machine, a weight machine, our office desk/bookshelves, and a kids playhouse and random other larger kids toys. So we are looking at a large room with really only the sofa/chair and carpet for sound absorbing materials. The patio doors only have cellular shades.

The feeling I’ve gotten from AVS is that I need at least one 18” ported sub, two 15” subs would be better. That and an iNuke3000DSP.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: TWG1572
but now that I’m better educated I can see what a plus Audyssey is. There’s always next time…

Pretty sure we've tried to convince you to get a receiver with Audyssey last year, when you were looking for receiver advice on here.

 

[TWG1572]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: TWG1572
but now that I’m better educated I can see what a plus Audyssey is. There’s always next time…

Pretty sure we've tried to convince you to get a receiver with Audyssey last year, when you were looking for receiver advice on here.

Yes, yes you did. I'm not lying when I say I've thought of that advice a couple times over the last couple weeks as I read up more on subs. My wife says I'm stubborn and I usually have to make my own mistakes before admitting I'm wrong. I won't tell her this, but she's right....

 

[dparm]

I would still sit closer. 10 feet wouldn't be terrible but anything more is going to be really lousy.

My biggest fear is that a room of that size will need a lot of power going to the speakers. Running the amp at 90% all the time will really strain it. Same for the subs -- running them at near-full power is far from optimal. I would start with just one good 12 or 15" sub and take it from there. You can always add a second one if you feel it's inadequate. Try to find the null spot(s) in your room right now and see what sort of bass you can get.

I see it has the YPAO-RSC, which is similar to Audyssey. It should be pretty obvious from the start if your existing amp and speakers/sub are insufficient. You'll see it cranking the levels way up and maxing out the LFE channel.

Acoustically, it would help to add things to the room behind the couch. Having a big empty space will do a lot of weird things with the sound. An inexpensive partition or divider would make a very big difference. The room is asymmetrical which is a good thing, though.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Acoustically, it would help to add things to the room behind the couch. Having a big empty space will do a lot of weird things with the sound. An inexpensive partition or divider would make a very big difference. The room is asymmetrical which is a good thing, though.

Absolutely. Such big open space may cause all kinds of echo and sound waves bouncing around too much, messing up the frequency response in strange ways. You can hope for YPAO to fix some of it, but it can only do so much.

Plus, having a divider like that would greatly reduce the overall volume of the HT area and would not require the amp/speakers/subs to be driven so hard.

 

[sleddriver]

Originally Posted By: TWG1572
I’m trying to find a “good” layout for my basement sound system.

The first diagram dparm posted is the ITU standard and ideal. LS's shouldn't be in a straight line as their flight paths will differ...even if you can compensate for it digitally. Lay them out on an arc. You don't have to leave them there. Put them back against the wall when the kids want to play to get them out of the way.


Quote:
I'm currently setup with Monitor 70 floorstanders (red boxes), and an entertainment center with a Polk CS2 center (green line). My next project is a sub, which I am seriously considering DIY’ing. Based on the reading I’ve done, one sub has grown into two, I now need a dedicated amp, etc… My head is reeling. I think I may do two 15” Stereo Integrity HT sealed enclosures, but not sure yet.

How high are the tweeters from the floor? Are they at ear level when you're sitting on the couch? All tweeters for LCR should be at ear level when you sit or as close as possible. Further, you may find that these LS's will 'open up' when tilted backwards a bit. Depends on the driver response + the crossover order. You'll have to experiment to see if it makes any difference. If you're in your mid-40's, compare notes with your wife.

Given your location (Madisound is in your town), I'd suggest you look up Earl Geddes and read his webpage. He has a great plan for dealing with bass based on sound fundamental acoustics. Not sure what he currently charges, but it's worth a look. Also, you might attend a meeting of their audio club.

 

[TWG1572]

So, I tried the spread out approach and didn't really like it. I did re-run YPAO, but it just didn't sound right. The L/R speakers seemed isolated, and there wasn't a seamless sound across the front. Hopefully that makes some sort of sense, that's about as good as I can describe it.

I put the speakers back where they were and I've slid the couch in and I'm now officially 11 feet from the TV. I'm going to work on seeing if I can get the recommended "arc" in speaker placement like the diagram.

I guess the purple squares on my diagram are now potential subwoofer spots. I know I have to do the sub crawl and look for the best spots, if I get lucky maybe one of them will work.

I'll have to think on the screen concept. I need something man cave friendly and wife approved.

The Monitor 70's seem to be hanging with the larger space OK, although I know I've got acoustic issues. Our typical listening level is anywhere from -35 to -40db on the dial. It seems like there's quite a bit of headroom in the Yamaha(as measured by how much further the dial goes) but that's about as scientific as I get.

I've been looking at some of the Outlaw/HSU subs. But I'm also intrigued by the DIY concept. One of the reasons is that I can build a sealed 15" sub with a solid amp w/DSP for about the same price as I would spend on a decent 10-12 incher. If I need to add another sub in the future, it's just another flat pack and a driver.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: TWG1572
Our typical listening level is anywhere from -35 to -40db on the dial.

At such low level, that thing is barely on.

Crank that baby up.

 

[TWG1572]

Originally Posted By: sleddriver
How high are the tweeters from the floor? Are they at ear level when you're sitting on the couch? All tweeters for LCR should be at ear level when you sit or as close as possible. Further, you may find that these LS's will 'open up' when tilted backwards a bit. Depends on the driver response + the crossover order. You'll have to experiment to see if it makes any difference. If you're in your mid-40's, compare notes with your wife.


The tweeters are pretty much ear level. One nice thing about the bigger towers. I'll try the tilt thing and see what happens. And I'm in my late 30's, but my wife still claims I'm deaf. Selective hearing I say...

Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Given your location (Madisound is in your town)


I'm pretty sure I've got you to thank for turning me on to Madisound. I remembered it was a guy from TX, but didn't remember the name. I actually stopped in there the other day. They are definitely not set up for walk-ins, but I was quite impressed by how nice they were and how much information they were willing to share. Two thumbs up. I need to do more modeling of their subs in WinISD. They don't have the high power/big driver subs, but maybe their designs hang with the big boys anyway.

 

[TWG1572]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

At such low level, that thing is barely on.

Crank that baby up.



Ha! I've taken some movies into the low -20's. But that's usually when I'm watching war movies myself. Family movie night might hit -30 on a real wild night. But my kids are 2 and 5, so they aren't that much into big sound either.

I had had it cranked to +15 while playing Metallica's Enter Sandman. I think everything in the basement was vibrating, including me. Probably a sign of a need for more sound deadening, but it was impressive none the less.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Isn't +15 the max volume? I'd definitely NEVER let it run at that level. Too much distortion/clipping going into your poor speakers at that volume, unless your source signal was at an unusually low level.

I was of course half joking about the thing being barely on at -40. It all depends on how sensitive your speakers are and how the system was calibrated.

 

[TWG1572]

I think you are correct on the max. And I didn't stay there very long, because it did sound pretty rough and was way too loud to be enjoyable anyway. But I figured I needed to open it up once and that's the perfect song....

 

[dparm]

Is 0dB "reference level"? On my Marantz it is.

 

[sleddriver]

Originally Posted By: TWG1572
I'm pretty sure I've got you to thank for turning me on to Madisound. I remembered it was a guy from TX, but didn't remember the name. They don't have the high power/big driver subs, but maybe their designs hang with the big boys anyway.

Yea, that was me.

Bigger isn't necessarily better, neither is high power. What you want is quality, not just quantity. You need a low-distorsion sub capable of deep squats down into the first octave (20-40Hz) AND given the very long wavelengths, you'll need at least two located in the proper locations to even out the sound field. Most likely they'll need to be equalized as well in both the time & frequency domains. Geddes talks about this in his book.

I'd suggest buying a copy of Geddes' book and reading it. I'd also suggest reading Floyd Tooles' latest book: Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms. 2nd. edition Great book. Written by someone who knows what they're talking about.