Handgun bullet penetration

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Originally Posted By: Footpounds
loading that shotgun with #7 1/2 or #8 will be just as effective and alot safer. At close range that birdshot will be a "solid" mass of lead but will stay inside of the intruder.


This is absolutely NOT true. It is a myth that has unfortunately survived for many decades. That mass of pellets will spread out as soon as it hits a human body, which will remove just about all of its penetration ability.
 
My recommendation on carry ammo. Stay away from the light fast rounds, like the CorBon 115gr +P+ and any of the Glaser or Magsafe rounds. They expand and fragment quickly which does not allow them to penetrate deep enough to cause significant damage.

I also suggest you stay away from Hydra-Shok rounds, because they can easily plug up with clothing and not expand. They perform quite will on a very lightly clothed individual, but don't expect them to do well on someone wearing heavy clothing.

These are some of the most highly rated 9mm rounds.

Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP (53617)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP (53619)
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)

I carry the 147gr HST and have 100% confidence in it.

I'm actually quite shocked at some of the recommendations in this thread. They could get someone killed.
 
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
I'm actually quite shocked at some of the recommendations in this thread. They could get someone killed.


Great last line!
I carry the high velocity totally frangible soft points knowing full well they won't penetrate much if the perp is wearing more than a tee shirt. Here in Dallas a policeman shot a dog with a Magsafe (so the story goes) and it just ran off. No the dog silly! Who knows, might be an urban legend, but it does represent the confidence most have in this family of bullets not being able to penetrate much. I was in a situation where I worked right behind the county hospital, and had a lot of people around but still had the need for self protection.
All this to say, you have to know the characteristics of what it is that you carry, both firearm and bullets.
Kind of the point of beginning this thread.
Thanks Chevofreak
Steve
 
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Originally Posted By: hi-miler
Thanks guys
This is exactly what I was hoping for, a quick primer on the basics of the bullet. My understanding of why the 9mm became so popular was the ability to control the firearm coupled with better stopping power than the .38 round. There's a saying, "Better one hit with a 9mm than multiple misses with a caliber you can't handle".
To kind of bolster what has been discussed. I normally carry a concealable .45, I have a smaller 10 round 9mm that I also carry from time to time usually in the summer, my wife carries a .380, my daughter has a 20 guage pump short barrel shotgun loaded with buck and slugs in her apartment, and we have a 12 guage loaded with buck and slugs in our house. I have three children still living at home, and used to work at some office buildings downtown Dallas, hence the safety rounds with the hollow point backup magazine. A retired Dallas police officer once told me that a handgun is used to fight your way to the shotgun.
Thanks again for the insight from all.
Steve


What kind of a neighborhood do you live in? I would seriously consider moving somewhere safer if I had to pack all the time.


He lives in Texas.... Everyone packs down there : )
 
Originally Posted By: hi-miler
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
I'm actually quite shocked at some of the recommendations in this thread. They could get someone killed.


Great last line!
I carry the high velocity totally frangible soft points knowing full well they won't penetrate much if the perp is wearing more than a tee shirt. Here in Dallas a policeman shot a dog with a Magsafe (so the story goes) and it just ran off. No the dog silly! Who knows, might be an urban legend, but it does represent the confidence most have in this family of bullets not being able to penetrate much. I was in a situation where I worked right behind the county hospital, and had a lot of people around but still had the need for self protection.
All this to say, you have to know the characteristics of what it is that you carry, both firearm and bullets.
Kind of the point of beginning this thread.
Thanks Chevofreak
Steve


If you rely on it just hurting them enough to scare them off, I really hope you don't come up against someone who is on PCP. About the only way to stop someone who is on PCP is to empty their body of blood, or destroy their central nervous system. They'll keep fighting right up until their body is physically incapable of doing so.

I want a round that is going to do the most damage possible in a given caliber, while not overpenetrating. Hollowpoints that expand as designed will usually not pass completely through a human body. Even if they penetrate all muscle and bone, they often are stopped by the elasticity of the skin on the other side.

Modern stuff like the HST from Federal and Ranger T from Winchester are probably the best bullets currently available. They're designed to have controlled expansion and predictable penetration. In all calibers tested, the bullets penetrated just a couple inches beyond the FBI's requirements. That shows just how well they're designing the bullets today. They're designed to work at the velocity they're driven at, and achieve similar results in all calibers. That is why 9mm is now quite an effective man-stopper, right up there with .40S&W and .45ACP.
 
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
They're designed to work at the velocity they're driven at, and achieve similar results in all calibers. That is why 9mm is now quite an effective man-stopper, right up there with .40S&W and .45ACP.


This is the gist of what I'm looking to get across. If one were to go by the list you posted, then one would be hard pressed to come up with better options. I have a .45 with exotic rounds in the chamber and first magazine. I know that and also know or at least understand their limitations, ergo the second mag being loaded with Speer Gold Dots.
Shred away all of this that we have been saying, except to get everyone to the point of understanding why it is you would come up with your list. Remember, a firearm is a means of getting a bullet or bullets effectively to where you want it or them to be.
To co-opt an old phrase: It's the bullet stupid!
 
Originally Posted By: Rob Taggs
Don't forget shot placement!


Amen. Two in the chest, one in the head. Wash, rinse, repeat.
 
Originally Posted By: Schmoe
Interesting point. I've read too many things about how hollow points jamming. Don't know the reason, but I'd suspect they are softer. The reason I got a 9mm was that I didn't want to blow threw the target and then hit someone on the other side. However, your argument makes a lot of sense too. Will have to think about that one for a while. But, if I need an extra clip, then I shouldn't have been there in the first place. But, worse things have happened.


You are thinking but just mis-informed I think. 9mm rounds have approx 35 % more penetration power than does a 45. That is due to the smaller diameter frontal section as well as the higher velocity. Your 9mm has an effective diameter of.3565" as opposed to the 45,s .451" diameter. the average velocity of a standard 45acp round is approx 950 fps for the 230 gr bullet and the 9mm is about 1150fps with the 125 gr bullet. The over penetration is the main objection to the 9mm round by people who have real world experience in one shot stops. By the way the time honored .357 magnum still possesses the record for documented one shot stops I believe and it too has the capability for over penetration. Having been shot with both 9mm and 45acp I can tell you from personal experience that the 45 hurts a lot more when it hits. That said neither bullet will stop a determined attacker as the myth of knowkdown power is totally discounted by Newton's law of action/reaction.
 
Quote:
Having been shot with both 9mm and 45acp


crazy2.gif
frown.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Snake42
Originally Posted By: Schmoe
Interesting point. I've read too many things about how hollow points jamming. Don't know the reason, but I'd suspect they are softer. The reason I got a 9mm was that I didn't want to blow threw the target and then hit someone on the other side. However, your argument makes a lot of sense too. Will have to think about that one for a while. But, if I need an extra clip, then I shouldn't have been there in the first place. But, worse things have happened.


You are thinking but just mis-informed I think. 9mm rounds have approx 35 % more penetration power than does a 45. That is due to the smaller diameter frontal section as well as the higher velocity. Your 9mm has an effective diameter of.3565" as opposed to the 45,s .451" diameter. the average velocity of a standard 45acp round is approx 950 fps for the 230 gr bullet and the 9mm is about 1150fps with the 125 gr bullet. The over penetration is the main objection to the 9mm round by people who have real world experience in one shot stops. By the way the time honored .357 magnum still possesses the record for documented one shot stops I believe and it too has the capability for over penetration. Having been shot with both 9mm and 45acp I can tell you from personal experience that the 45 hurts a lot more when it hits. That said neither bullet will stop a determined attacker as the myth of knowkdown power is totally discounted by Newton's law of action/reaction.



Must be LEO right? There is a training video/recreation of a shootout in a bedroom in LA with a guy on PCP. He took several K5 shots (6 rds total) including a round down through the top of his head and he was still in the fight. His quote was "You got me a good one on that one." as told by the surviving officer (his partner was killed by the assailant). The shot which finally ended his battle was one to the hip which took out his mobility and he bled out. IIRC, the round was a .38 service round. Can't tell you bullet type or cartridge charge. This happened sometime back in the early 80's maybe and was shown to me in Basic in the 90's.
 
I saw a documented shooting case write up in American Handgunner many years ago where a guy (also on PCP) absorbed 30 rounds of 9mm and 2 12ga. slug rounds. Second slug hit him low and snapped his back which took him to the ground. He died minutes later.

Article had pics and officer testimony.
 
The Morros in the Phillipines used to tie their extremeties in turniquets, get very high on something or other, and then charge in on the American soldiers. Took several rounds to stop them, or one well placed round. Hence the fondness for the sledgehammer knockdown of the .45 for the Army. If I remember my reading correctly.
Steve
 
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
Sledgehammer knockdown. HAHAHHAHA.

Funny.


Yeah, heh heh. That's what they would say right after they got finished smoking that wacky stuff, and just before they got shot!
LOL Just couldn't resist.
LOL.gif
 
Originally Posted By: wantin150
The shot which finally ended his battle was one to the hip which took out his mobility and he bled out.


That's why my department and others have started going to two shots center mass then hip/pelvis shots as the next option if the bad guy is still standing. Pelvis is a lot bigger target area then the head.
 
A Navy housewife in the 60's was protecting her two young children from a guy that came in the house. He caught her in the hallway and she shot him 5 times with a 12ga shotgun using buck shot. She used the gun just like her husband taught her. A Policeman asked her why she shot him five times evidently wanting to know why so many shots. She answered that she shot him only five times because she ran out of ammunition. She hit him every time and it did not blow him back down the hallway like it would on a TV show. She really nailed him. Pieces of his teeth were embedded in the ceiling and the walls. At least one shot got him right in the face. His spine was separated in two places and one leg bone was blown out of the hip socket but the leg was not blown off. She claimed that she never felt the recoil or heard the gun go off. This was a focused woman protecting her children. I think she did a better job with the shotgun than a pistol.
 
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