Gear lube, Marine verses Auto versions

[lars11]

1 Certainly all companies want additional aftermarket sales and offer OEM parts.
2 Do we need to follow those recs? No, but then we need to know specs.
So I agree with the op that manufacturers shoiuld specify their products to standards. Not "80w90 with merc magic added". That kind of writing makes the 80w90 part irrelevant IF merc requires that the " magic" component is reqired for wasrranty.

Then I like Volvo better, they state both the Volvo OEM product AND what to replace with. Like "same as engine" in many older SP drives, sae 90 gl5 or "mobil 1 shc 75w90" for my dps. (Mobil1shc is noit a standard but it sägs gl4, gl5 and MT1 which pretty much closes that case)

But still, what standards exactly make up "marine grade" oil?

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
So I agree with the op that manufacturers shoiuld specify their products to standards. Not "80w90 with merc magic added".


Never saw that kind of advertising.

I don't think Mercury Marine can require you to use their Marine lube because of the Magnuson-Moss Act:

http://www.jtexconsumerlaw.com/V11N3/JCCL_Magnuson.pdf

I recommend you and the OP define a set of Marine Gear Lube specifications for:

a. internal marine drives for 5 to 100 Hp,
b. internal marine drives for 100 to 10,000 Hp,
c. external Marine drives for 5 to 500 Hp,
d. define fluid characteristics for both fresh water and sea water operation wrt for the temperature range for all makes and types of drives,
e. define fluid characteristics for both fresh water and sea water operation wrt corrosion resistance for all types of metallurgy used in Marine Gear Drives,
f. define wear characteristics of said fluids for both fresh water and sea water operation wrt loads encountered in all HP categories wrt the temperature range for all makes and types of drives and metallurgies.

Again, if you and or the OP has an itch to scratch with Mercury Marine, then take it up with them.

 

[lars11]

I don't have an itch with Merc, I love'em. But like Magnusson Moss, I like transparency. I do know a lot about outdrives and a bit about how to design and optimize gears from working at a Swedish truck brand, (not volvo)
I think the OP ask about outdrives, not straight axel gear cases. And outdrives work under both harsh and soft op onditions.
They need to be as small as possible compared to load and they are at risk of getting water/salt in the oil which can not evaporate.
On the other hand, there are not much impact and water is seldom below zero or above 30-ish Celsius. They are also exactly straight designs and it looks like body warping is dealt with by bearing structure geometry.

Merc says themselves that there are no standards for -marine gear lube-, but on the good side they actually have a lube for all of their sterndrive and outboards in all conditions, like you asked for!
All drives
All power ratings
All waters
I bet my Yamahas and Volvo Penta could do just fine with that lube too.

So, I think that you could design a standard for angeled regular sterndrives and outboards that most manufacturers could agree on.
It would be like GL5/MT1 with an addition on handling water intrusion and maybe seal conditioning. Some drives have brass parts, so maybe not damage yellows either.

It could not hurt this industry to talk the same language on gear lubrication.

 

[philipp10]

Originally Posted By: lars11
1 Certainly all companies want additional aftermarket sales and offer OEM parts.
2 Do we need to follow those recs? No, but then we need to know specs.
So I agree with the op that manufacturers shoiuld specify their products to standards. Not "80w90 with merc magic added". That kind of writing makes the 80w90 part irrelevant IF merc requires that the " magic" component is reqired for wasrranty.

Then I like Volvo better, they state both the Volvo OEM product AND what to replace with. Like "same as engine" in many older SP drives, sae 90 gl5 or "mobil 1 shc 75w90" for my dps. (Mobil1shc is noit a standard but it sägs gl4, gl5 and MT1 which pretty much closes that case)

But still, what standards exactly make up "marine grade" oil?


It's telling that Volvo specs standard GL-5 automotive gear lube for what is basically the same type of drive design. That to me says adding the word "marine" is just a money grab by Mercury Marine. I am not 100% doubting the benefits of marine gear lubes as much as I would just like to understand how it can help. The most common argument for marine lube is the addition of emulsifiers. However, as noted in ASTM testing, those additives are hardly effective unless you are constantly agitating the drive oil. Once the boat is off, the water separates within hours at most.

 

[AjsGarage]

I wouldnt sweat the difference too much. A good condition lower unit should not get any noticeable amount of water in the gear lube. So the hypothetical differences between marine and automotive gear lube in water emulsion and such shouldn't matter during normal use.

Save your $ by purchasing the cheapest option, and spend that $ to make sure all of your seals hold instead.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
It's telling that Volvo specs standard GL-5 automotive gear lube for what is basically the same type of drive design. That to me says adding the word "marine" is just a money grab by Mercury Marine. I am not 100% doubting the benefits of marine gear lubes as much as I would just like to understand how it can help. The most common argument for marine lube is the addition of emulsifiers. However, as noted in ASTM testing, those additives are hardly effective unless you are constantly agitating the drive oil. Once the boat is off, the water separates within hours at most.


Volvo's specifying plane Jane GL-5 only says that they may have good sealing and use gearing of stainless steels. Again, you should know about material selection and how it may affect specifications.

I have already explained how it can help and have linked you to various articles and data but you still don't understand how the additional chemistry can help, and here is your response:

Quote:
...gear lubes as much as I would just like to understand how it can help. The most common argument for marine lube is the addition of emulsifiers. However, as noted in ASTM testing, those additives are hardly effective unless you are constantly agitating the drive oil. Once the boat is off, the water separates within hours at most.


Apparently you ignore the technical explanations for the additional additives and what these additives do.

Quote:
However, as noted in ASTM testing, those additives are hardly effective unless you are constantly agitating the drive oil. Once the boat is off, the water separates within hours at most.


Patently False:

Again, it is evident you do not understand emulsification.

No one is forcing you to purchase Mercury Marine.

 

[philipp10]

Quote:
However, as noted in ASTM testing, those additives are hardly effective unless you are constantly agitating the drive oil. Once the boat is off, the water separates within hours at most.


Patently False:

Again, it is evident you do not understand emulsification.

No one is forcing you to purchase Mercury Marine

Patently false my a$$. I did read the spec and d 30 minutes is their time frame. 30 minutes isn't hardly in the realm of how most people use their boats.

 

[philipp10]

Volvo's specifying plane Jane GL-5 only says that they may have good sealing and use gearing of stainless steels. Again, you should know about material selection and how it may affect specifications.

Stainless steel for gearing in the Volvo? Oh get real. They don't use stainless in those drives.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Patently false my a$$. I did read the spec and d 30 minutes is their time frame. 30 minutes isn't hardly in the realm of how most people use their boats.



Again, you may read but do not understand or choose to not understand for the sake of dissing a product and to further some kind of agenda.

Thirty (30) minutes was the length of the accelerated test. Emulsifiers keep the water separated from the oil so droplets do not form rust on the gearing, as has been explained about four (4) times thus far. It doesn't matter whether the oil is agitated or still, quite, in notion, or not in motion.


Quote:
Stainless steel for gearing in the Volvo? Oh get real. They don't use stainless in those drives.


I didn't say they used stainless steel gearing, I said they might. Again you missed the point, and that is, material selection drives specifications.

I also noticed you avoided commenting on sealing in order to deflect your further misunderstanding(s).

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: lars11


...It would be like GL5/MT1 with an addition on handling water intrusion and maybe seal conditioning. Some drives have brass parts, so maybe not damage yellows either...


That's the definition of a Marine Gear lube.

 

[lars11]

Agreed!
Maybe nmma could make a standard spec out of it, basically requiring some thought on water mgmt?

 

[philipp10]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Patently false my a$$. I did read the spec and d 30 minutes is their time frame. 30 minutes isn't hardly in the realm of how most people use their boats.



Again, you may read but do not understand or choose to not understand for the sake of dissing a product and to further some kind of agenda.

Thirty (30) minutes was the length of the accelerated test. Emulsifiers keep the water separated from the oil so droplets do not form rust on the gearing, as has been explained about four (4) times thus far. It doesn't matter whether the oil is agitated or still, quite, in notion, or not in motion.


Quote:
Stainless steel for gearing in the Volvo? Oh get real. They don't use stainless in those drives.


I didn't say they used stainless steel gearing, I said they might. Again you missed the point, and that is, material selection drives specifications.

I also noticed you avoided commenting on sealing in order to deflect your further misunderstanding(s).


But if the test is over a 30 minute timeframe but the average boat sits is for weeks, if not months at a time, it's kind of meaningless. Thats the difference here. You are correct, the emulsifiers are doing their job, best they can but in this application, it's meaningless if they are only capable of separation in the span of an hour or two. That's the difference between me and you. You are trying to apply a emulsion test that shows separation within hours to a system that can sit for weeks. Just because the emulsifier can separate for short term is not applicable in the system.

As far as sealing, I have no idea if the Volvo design seals better but, I would suspect, even if they do, can you really rely on any seal design ever? I could do some research on the Volvo design but chances are, they are using a system very similar to Mercruiser.

 

[philipp10]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
The discussion is NOT about Amsoil Marine Gear Lube, that was ued as an example of ASTM tests.

Quote:
there is no published proof that I can find.


No published proof of "what" specifically?

I think you are missing the point and making a mountain out of a Molehill.

As an engineer you should be aware of ASTM and SAE tests and protocols.

ASTM tests ARE valid tests for comparing non-Marine gear lubes with Marine specific gear lubes.

Also see a rather comprehensive write up here:

Outdrive gear oil tests


BTW: This link you privided highlights Demulsibility Characteristics. Meaning, they refer to how the make additives to help in water separation, not in emulsivitivy.

Demulsibility Characteristics
Industrial gear lubricants are frequently exposed to water from damaged coolers, lines, water spray used for cool down, and atmospheric moisture or steam sources. Contamination of the gear lubricant with water can cause poor lubrication, rust and corrosion and acceleration of the rate of oxidation of the gear lubricant. An industrial gear lubricant must resist mixing and emulsification with water and have good water separating characteristics for quick and effective water removal from the system. An industrial gear lubricant’s ability to resist emulsification and separate readily from water is achieved through the use of demulsibility additives in the formulation of the industrial gear lubricants.

 

[Silverado12]

Use the Merc marine lube. I tried regular Amsoil gear oil one year just because I had it and it turned black. I replaced it with the Merc gear oil (bluish green) and it stayed the same color and looked basically the same as it did when I put it in after 1 year. No matter what the test results are, I can tell you from real experience to use the Mercury oil.

 

[philipp10]

Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Use the Merc marine lube. I tried regular Amsoil gear oil one year just because I had it and it turned black. I replaced it with the Merc gear oil (bluish green) and it stayed the same color and looked basically the same as it did when I put it in after 1 year. No matter what the test results are, I can tell you from real experience to use the Mercury oil.


Good point however, I used plain GL-5 a couple years ago and I checked for water in the fall, draining just an ounce. It too, looked like the day I put it in, clean and same color.

 

[Bluestream]

If you read my post on page one, I already have confirmation from a Mercury factory representative that the gear oil is the same as automotive gear oil, just packaged and priced for a different market. Why would he lie abort that. I'm sure they want to sell all the oil they can, but the guy was honest. That's good enough for me, I have used GL5 for over 20 years and never an issue even in gearcases with a bad seal.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Bluestream
If you read my post on page one, I already have confirmation from a Mercury factory representative that the gear oil is the same as automotive gear oil, just packaged and priced for a different market. Why would he lie abort that. I'm sure they want to sell all the oil they can, but the guy was honest. That's good enough for me, I have used GL5 for over 20 years and never an issue even in gearcases with a bad seal.


More hogwash from a non-formulator.

Quote:
Mercury Marine gear lube outperforms automotive gear oil in marine applications because of its specialized additive package designed for marine gear cases. Continued use of this gear case lubricant will: Provide maximum protection against excessive wear - even in the presence of water Prevent corrosion and pitting..

 

[Bluestream]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
If you read my post on page one, I already have confirmation from a Mercury factory representative that the gear oil is the same as automotive gear oil, just packaged and priced for a different market. Why would he lie abort that. I'm sure they want to sell all the oil they can, but the guy was honest. That's good enough for me, I have used GL5 for over 20 years and never an issue even in gearcases with a bad seal.


More hogwash from a non-formulator.

Quote:
Mercury Marine gear lube outperforms automotive gear oil in marine applications because of its specialized additive package designed for marine gear cases. Continued use of this gear case lubricant will: Provide maximum protection against excessive wear - even in the presence of water Prevent corrosion and pitting..


This is pure product marketing for the gullible. What special additives? Show me the formulation! They can make the same claim for vanilla GL5

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Bluestream



This is pure product marketing for the gullible. What special additives? Show me the formulation! They can make the same claim for vanilla GL5


Well You keep thinking that and no, you can't make the same claim for a vanilla GL-5.


I assume you haven't read all the posts.


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...nal_#Post530321 post #530330.

Look for Emulsifiers and EP additives.

 

[Bluestream]

That is meaningless..show me a link to the marine gear lube, so I can compare to automotive and see what the difference is. These marketing claims that it "contains special Emulsifiers" is just pure [censored]. Show me proof!