Fram Xtended Guard Cut Open (Used 13453 mi)

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If it was my car, I would still use the same filters I'm running now. When you compare the larger filter options you typically see more sq in of media. IMO more surface area = less need for a high bypass spec.

Some of these sooby spec'd cans are just too small with very limited media surface area. Even the newly created wix 7712 is TINY, with less than 50 sq inches of media. So it doesn't surprise me that they need high bypass specs to keep oil flowing through the limited media.

There are exceptions to the rule. The Tokyo Roki OEM was a GREAT filter, with a lot of media for a small can. Next up would be the purolator 14612, which also came in a pretty small can, but plenty of media surface and very well made.

Here's some threads to make your head spin:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2506579&page=all
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1861033&page=1

And my thread where I cut a bunch open to come to my own conclusions:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1855050

If you want the right spec'd size, with a relatively higher bypass spec (~18) the 14612 is an excellent option. I would trust that filter on any car. My buddy runs it on his 4.0 xterra and we've cut them all open. Never a bad filter.
 
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I agree. I think that one had ~ 7k miles. All of the pleats were still fully intact, the ADBV pliable, but the endcaps were wavy, and obviously so too were the pleats themselves.

I might try the same Fram on my STI. I've been a major supporter of the Subie blues (mostly based on the bypass spec, and minorly because the filters always seemed fine when I cut them open in the past,) but you're right, this latest one doesn't give me that warm and fuzzy feeling.

Any thoughts on running the Fram in a turbo Subie?


I think all the Subarus (NA or Turbo) have some pretty high volume oil pumps. I'm thinking that FRAM with wavy pleats and end caps probably suffered some from high oil volume flow. It almost looks like it's been imploded some. I'd run a filter with metal end caps and good flow ... like that XG or even a PureOne.
 
I was looking at that same filter at Walmarts today as a possible for my first oil change on '13 Accord. It was priced under $7. Might give it a try, however, I'm old school and the filter gets changed with the oil.
 
Originally Posted By: webfors
If it was my car, I would still use the same filters I'm running now. When you compare the larger filter options you typically see more sq in of media. IMO more surface area = less need for a high bypass spec.

Some of these sooby spec'd cans are just too small with very limited media surface area. Even the newly created wix 7712 is TINY, with less than 50 sq inches of media. So it doesn't surprise me that they need high bypass specs to keep oil flowing through the limited media.

There are exceptions to the rule. The Tokyo Roki OEM was a GREAT filter, with a lot of media for a small can. Next up would be the purolator 14612, which also came in a pretty small can, but plenty of media surface and very well made.

Here's some threads to make your head spin:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2506579&page=all
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1861033&page=1

And my thread where I cut a bunch open to come to my own conclusions:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1855050

If you want the right spec'd size, with a relatively higher bypass spec (~18) the 14612 is an excellent option. I would trust that filter on any car. My buddy runs it on his 4.0 xterra and we've cut them all open. Never a bad filter.


Thanks for all of the info!

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I agree. I think that one had ~ 7k miles. All of the pleats were still fully intact, the ADBV pliable, but the endcaps were wavy, and obviously so too were the pleats themselves.

I might try the same Fram on my STI. I've been a major supporter of the Subie blues (mostly based on the bypass spec, and minorly because the filters always seemed fine when I cut them open in the past,) but you're right, this latest one doesn't give me that warm and fuzzy feeling.

Any thoughts on running the Fram in a turbo Subie?


I think all the Subarus (NA or Turbo) have some pretty high volume oil pumps. I'm thinking that FRAM with wavy pleats and end caps probably suffered some from high oil volume flow. It almost looks like it's been imploded some. I'd run a filter with metal end caps and good flow ... like that XG or even a PureOne.


The Subie blue (Honeywell) filter was structurally sound. The pleats were simply wavy and the endcaps, while still rigid, were a bit wavy, as well. I've decided that that filter WILL be the last OEM Subaru filter I buy.

Originally Posted By: tc1446
I was looking at that same filter at Walmarts today as a possible for my first oil change on '13 Accord. It was priced under $7. Might give it a try, however, I'm old school and the filter gets changed with the oil.


How long is the MM letting you go? IMO, if the filter looks like this after so many miles, and the starting efficiency is what it is, then it behooves me to run it out longer to take advantage of better construction and better end-of-life filtration.
 
So...as read alot of these forums and see alot of ppl comment on how good these filters look. How do you know if your filter is close to reaching its designed capacity? Do alot of ppl have dp capabilities across the filter? IMO I would play it safe and change it more often than trying to get the most out of it. All of these specs and ISO ratings for these elements are basically done in a lab, not in real life situations.
 
Originally Posted By: Pistol_Pete
So...as read alot of these forums and see alot of ppl comment on how good these filters look. How do you know if your filter is close to reaching its designed capacity? Do alot of ppl have dp capabilities across the filter? IMO I would play it safe and change it more often than trying to get the most out of it. All of these specs and ISO ratings for these elements are basically done in a lab, not in real life situations.


There are plenty of "tells." Operational cycle would be one. UOA would be another. Engine condition could be a third. The filter specs would be another (e.g. a high capacity filter). A plugged oil filter is an extremely rare occurrence overall. A tight, fresh modern engine with good air filtration hardly soils itself at all. An older style engine or a partly worn out one may generate more contamination. A short hopped engine or one operated at extreme temps may generate oxidation byproducts... which are usual source of plugged filters.
If you get good UOAs, or have a good operational cycle, a lengthy oil filter interval is almost risk free.
 
I'm gonna have to agree to disgree to some point. If you dont know what the differential pressure is on the filter you have no idea if its close to a bypass, not to mention in total bypass on startup. Once a filter has a higher dp its doesnt take that long to reach its useful life. UOA are telling you the overall particles counts of the oil not what they are before and after the filter, which would give you a true indication of whether the filter is doing a good job. IMO you relying on reputation and filter specs and there is so many variables. To a point every car is different, your not gonna get the same UOA results even if there identical cars. When you say filter pluggage is a "rare occurence" are these filter being test or is this just a visual? Technically a filter is never plugged, its just goes to bypass.
 
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Originally Posted By: Pistol_Pete
I'm gonna have to agree to disgree to some point. If you dont know what the differential pressure is on the filter you have no idea if its close to a bypass, not to mention in total bypass on startup. Once a filter has a higher dp its doesnt take that long to reach its useful life. UOA are telling you the overall particles counts of the oil not what they are before and after the filter, which would give you a true indication of whether the filter is doing a good job. IMO you relying on reputation aund filter specs and there is so many variables. To a point every car is different, your not gonna get thesame UOA results even if there identical cars. When you say filter pluggage is a "rare occurence" are these filter being test or is this just a visual? Technically a filter is never plugged, its just goes to bypass.


Might as well change it every thousand miles then, since we're choosing arbitrary OFI's... Honestly, your post reads like a first year undergrad who just learned about filters in Systems 101 class.
28.gif
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If Honda spec's a filter change every other OCI, I'm going mostly on faith that the Fram filter I'm using will do just fine for the same interval.
 
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Originally Posted By: Pistol_Pete
I'm gonna have to agree to disgree to some point. If you dont know what the differential pressure is on the filter you have no idea if its close to a bypass, not to mention in total bypass on startup. Once a filter has a higher dp its doesnt take that long to reach its useful life. UOA are telling you the overall particles counts of the oil not what they are before and after the filter, which would give you a true indication of whether the filter is doing a good job. IMO you relying on reputation and filter specs and there is so many variables. To a point every car is different, your not gonna get the same UOA results even if there identical cars. When you say filter pluggage is a "rare occurence" are these filter being test or is this just a visual? Technically a filter is never plugged, its just goes to bypass.


You are vastly overstating the hypothetical, Pete. If you do a PC or a UOA at any point in the OCI and you see a high level of contaminants, you know either that you have a problem that is introducing high levels of contaminants into the oil beyond the ability of the filter to clear, and/or you have a plugged filter that is in bypass. If you UOA at the OC and see low levels of contaminants, you know the filter wasn't running in bypass. You look at enough UOAs, here and elsewhere, and you see that high levels of contaminants simply isn't at all common... in fact it's extremely rare. On top of that, you find filter industry experts/engineers, who have the results of continuous testing and QC close at hand, that state plugged filters on a healthy engine, even at long OCIs, simply isn't common... in fact is quite rare.

It's true that a DP reading is the tell all. I know that the Fram Ultra XG2 I use in my F150 has a capacity of 30 grams. I also have an average figure that a 5.4L engine will generate 0.0002 grams of contaminants per thousand miles, it would take 150,000 miles to plug the filter in theory... lots of caveats to that of course.

Also, I think if a filter element is loaded to the point of putting the filter assembly into bypass, that filter could technically be called "plugged."
 
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Jim,
Recent experiences with assumed plugged filters:

One was a used car for my son last year. Oil light was on shortly after purchase. Started ticking pretty bad. Filter swap put the light out. The other was a few months ago in another forum. Oil light was on, I told him what happened to me, sure enough a filter swap put out the oil light. In both cases no oil change was performed at the time of the filter swap. 2 different filter types. 2 different engine types. Based on this I'm making the assumption the filter(s) were plugged. I did not cut mine open, but I probably couldn't tell anyways by looking at it.

I'm going to make another assumption - that if a filter does plug, you will know it. It won't just go into bypass and give no indications other than what shows up in a UOA. The bypass alone does not appear to be able support proper oil pressure if the filter is plugged. Some oil pressure, enough to keep the engine from seizing, but not enough to go on unnoticed by an oil light or some pretty bad ticking.
 
First off, Im not a first year undergrad! I have 10+ years experience in the industrial lubrication field, and lots of experience with filters. How often are you guys doing UOA's on your vehicles? The way you describe things it seems like your doing it weekly. In my field in most cases we dont use filters beyond 6 months even if we have a monitoring system attached to it. Keep in mind these filters are industrial and about $500 a piece. Also the engineers of these elements recommend the changeout at least every six months.
 
Also if your taking a sample at the end of your OCI and your contaminents level are high...then what...how long has that been running like that? There are alot of what if's...I would rather be safe than sorry. A filter is cheap insurance.
 
Originally Posted By: Pistol_Pete
Also if your taking a sample at the end of your OCI and your contaminents level are high...then what...how long has that been running like that? There are alot of what if's...I would rather be safe than sorry. A filter is cheap insurance.


I presented you with some info on a specific automotive application and you return with some vague industrial references and an "I've seen it all" attitude. If you are indeed working in the industrial lubrication field, you probably have seen some interesting stuff that most of us would like to hear about. Whether it's applicable to this discussion or not remains to be seen.

Frankly, and I don't say this to insult you, anytime I hear the "cheap insurance" line dragged out, it makes me wonder about the person saying it. It's a noob concept that provides patsy customers that fall for the idiotic 3-month, 3000 mile oil change interval that we can't seen to shed ourselves of and has been proven 6 ways to Sunday to be a farce and an utter waste.

Most of my information comes from sources in the AUTOMOTIVE filter industry that I have interviewed, so the info is application specific for the most part. Plus I have some education in the automotive field myself and still work within it. The consensus from the experts is that filters seldom plug to the point of continuous bypass in a well maintained vehicle, even those with appropriately extended OCIs/FCIs. This is one reason why OEMs like Honda even spec FCIs every other OCI, even on their rather marginal OEM filters. Given their warranty exposure, it's safe to assume they have thoroughly tested the recommendation.

As to OCI and UOA, that's just one way you can tell if you have a problem and my reference to it was being presented in BITOG-mode... i.e. oil geeks who go the extra mile to figure out what's going on with their cars. For those outside the venue, the answer is simple... follow the OEM's recommended intervals on both oil and filter. They have been tested by the OEM, who also stand behind them.

As to how I do it, I UOA at gradually increasing OCIs until I read the point where the oil starts to go south. In my experience, even at 10K miles there is no indication from the UOA that the filter various filters I've used are anywhere near being plugged. I admit this is a pretty narrow sample base, 4-5 engines, but it's directly applicable to me anyway and correlates with the other info I have researched.

The Fram Ultra recently adopted for use on the F150, which is my primary "teaching tool" has a 15K mile FCI rating from Fram, which no doubt has some safety factor built in. It's rated to carry 30 grams of contaminant. Some of it's competitors in that interchange application are in the 18 gram range, so the Ultra is almost double the capacity. RIght now the truck has a Pure 1 on it but the exact capacity of that filter is unknown and Puro doesn't give it a specific rating.

I do have the ability to do DP measurements on my primary filter setup in the F150 (yes, I am a filter geek and an admitted/BITOG certified gauge-o-haulic) but have never fully hooked it up. Perhaps you have motivated me to move it up on my "round-to-it" list. Would be kind of interesting to do it now because I have about 11K on the filter now. A UOA/PC at 10K (find it in the UOA section if interested) provided a clean bill of health, both from the contaminants and oil health standpoint. I hit a deer saturday with the truck, so it's going to be in the body shop for a while, afterwards when I get time, it would be interesting to test this filter.
 
Originally Posted By: Pistol_Pete
First off, Im not a first year undergrad! I have 10+ years experience in the industrial lubrication field, and lots of experience with filters. How often are you guys doing UOA's on your vehicles? The way you describe things it seems like your doing it weekly. In my field in most cases we dont use filters beyond 6 months even if we have a monitoring system attached to it. Keep in mind these filters are industrial and about $500 a piece. Also the engineers of these elements recommend the changeout at least every six months.


Sorry, I was just trying to poke fun, and didn't mean to offend.

I'm an engineer, which seems to come with a proclivity for getting lost in the weeds while thinking about or trying to resolve something relatively simple. In this case, my perception of the risk associated with running a quality filter at the interval I am is very low. Were this engine abused or poorly maintained, my answer would be different. In reality, I could probably get away with running this filter for FOUR OCI's and still have the engine outlast the car.

So, MY point is that while I think a filter matters a great deal, the peace-of-mind factor associated with changing it out at what I consider too-short intervals just isn't very high.
 
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: Pistol_Pete
First off, Im not a first year undergrad! I have 10+ years experience in the industrial lubrication field, and lots of experience with filters. How often are you guys doing UOA's on your vehicles? The way you describe things it seems like your doing it weekly. In my field in most cases we dont use filters beyond 6 months even if we have a monitoring system attached to it. Keep in mind these filters are industrial and about $500 a piece. Also the engineers of these elements recommend the changeout at least every six months.


Sorry, I was just trying to poke fun, and didn't mean to offend.

I'm an engineer, which seems to come with a proclivity for getting lost in the weeds while thinking about or trying to resolve something relatively simple. In this case, my perception of the risk associated with running a quality filter at the interval I am is very low. Were this engine abused or poorly maintained, my answer would be different. In reality, I could probably get away with running this filter for FOUR OCI's and still have the engine outlast the car.

So, MY point is that while I think a filter matters a great deal, the peace-of-mind factor associated with changing it out at what I consider too-short intervals just isn't very high.


I thought that was directed at me, Wool, but yours is still a good answer.
 
We're not throwing away 100 dollar tires every 5 or 6 K, but four dollar oil filters. Those who say run them a bazillion miles aren't going to by ME a new engine.
 
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: Pistol_Pete
First off, Im not a first year undergrad! I have 10+ years experience in the industrial lubrication field, and lots of experience with filters. How often are you guys doing UOA's on your vehicles? The way you describe things it seems like your doing it weekly. In my field in most cases we dont use filters beyond 6 months even if we have a monitoring system attached to it. Keep in mind these filters are industrial and about $500 a piece. Also the engineers of these elements recommend the changeout at least every six months.


Sorry, I was just trying to poke fun, and didn't mean to offend.

I'm an engineer, which seems to come with a proclivity for getting lost in the weeds while thinking about or trying to resolve something relatively simple. In this case, my perception of the risk associated with running a quality filter at the interval I am is very low. Were this engine abused or poorly maintained, my answer would be different. In reality, I could probably get away with running this filter for FOUR OCI's and still have the engine outlast the car.

So, MY point is that while I think a filter matters a great deal, the peace-of-mind factor associated with changing it out at what I consider too-short intervals just isn't very high.


I thought that was directed at me, Wool, but yours is still a good answer.


Haha, no, but I was hoping to keep things light - I followed the proper emoticon etiquette and everything!

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
We're not throwing away 100 dollar tires every 5 or 6 K, but four dollar oil filters. Those who say run them a bazillion miles aren't going to by ME a new engine.


13k isn't a bazillion, and IS IN ACCORDANCE WITH WHAT HONDA RECOMMENDS. Granted, I don't trust all manufacturer's maintenance schedules, but come one guys, it's a filter. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Sure, $4 isn't much, but neither are many things that could be (overly) maintained. I'm a big fan of using things out to the end of their useful life, with in what I feel is a safe margin. Besides, every one here on BITOG knows that a used filter filters better than a new one.

So, for those changing their filters way too often, I suppose the additional wear due to the particles not being filtered by your virgin filters is roughly equivalent to the increase in risk I run of bypassing my well-used filter at 13k miles.
 
The FRAM Ultra can go 13k easy in a healthy engine. I think the Ultra will do 1 year OCI's just fine in my application. However I wouldn't use my puro classics for the same interval.

Getting useful life doesn't mean running a product to 99% of it's actual capacity IMO. 75% seems reasonable
grin.gif
 
No insults taken, I understand they are some OCD ppl out there but I guess it comes down too what your comfortable with. I wouldnt feel comfortable going long OCI without knowing the dp of the filter. To me its cheap enough to change out the filter and top-off and give you peace of mind.

I current dont UOA's on my vehicles, which Im planning on this next oil change. Its a toyota so don't worry too much! lol. Heres's a kicker....my car is a 09 corolla and my girlfriends is a 11 corolla with the same engine and it OCI is 10k and my is 5K. Due to the warranty requirements I had to change out every 5k but that has change since I flip to 100k already. Another thing I dont like is the OEM core-less filter element, they seem cheap to me. The TRD element seem much better with viton o-rings on each end, but they run $20 a piece. So Im sticking with pure-ones for now.
 
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