I am trying to find some test results and detailed performance information on a Fram HP-10, such as beta rating and flow rate. I can't seem to find any information for the racing filters on the Fram website. I must be missing something. It must be listed somewhere.
Fram Racing Oil Filter Performance Data?
- Thread starter URG8RB8
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From where you posted about this in another thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...219#Post3002219
I doubt the FRAM Racing Filter is better at filtering than the FRAM Ultra.
What's your goal in an oil filter?
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...219#Post3002219
I doubt the FRAM Racing Filter is better at filtering than the FRAM Ultra.
What's your goal in an oil filter?
I am looking for what probably doesn't exist. I am looking for the best of everything. I want the best flow rate, best filtration (I know inversely proportional), strong burst strength, no bypass, antidrainback valve, and 100% synthetic wire backed filter media for extended OCI as I am using very expensive oil. Within reason, I don't care what it costs. Reasonable for me, for a throw away would be less than $25 each, reusable would be <$300.00.
I got some info on the Fram racing filter but can't put my hands on it right now. From memory, it was significantly less efficient than the standard Fram line. If you want an oil filter that represents itself as a "racing" filter... lots of flow, high burst strength with decent efficiency, try K&N. Still, keep tilting at those windmills... you may turn something up.
Jim:
I am pretty happy with my Fram Ultra decission, but my machinist swears it is a mistake and to use the Fram racing instead. Where can you locate the flow rate in gpm for the FU?
I am pretty happy with my Fram Ultra decission, but my machinist swears it is a mistake and to use the Fram racing instead. Where can you locate the flow rate in gpm for the FU?
Originally Posted By: URG8RB8
Jim:
I am pretty happy with my Fram Ultra decission, but my machinist swears it is a mistake and to use the Fram racing instead. Where can you locate the flow rate in gpm for the FU?
Google "Motorking" here and email him with a specific part number. It's going to vary alot according to size.
Jim:
I am pretty happy with my Fram Ultra decission, but my machinist swears it is a mistake and to use the Fram racing instead. Where can you locate the flow rate in gpm for the FU?
Google "Motorking" here and email him with a specific part number. It's going to vary alot according to size.
Will do!
E-mail sent, will post information that I receive.
Originally Posted By: URG8RB8
Jim:
I am pretty happy with my Fram Ultra decission, but my machinist swears it is a mistake and to use the Fram racing instead. Where can you locate the flow rate in gpm for the FU?
I'm sure the FU will flow way more oil than your engine's oil circuit can. Typically, the engine circuit is 15 times more restrictive than the oil filter.
Only thing that could cause an oil filter to not keep up with the oil flow going top the engine is if the oil pump is putting out some crazy oil pressure/volume, which I doubt it is unless it's a flow blown racing engine you're talking about.
Jim:
I am pretty happy with my Fram Ultra decission, but my machinist swears it is a mistake and to use the Fram racing instead. Where can you locate the flow rate in gpm for the FU?
I'm sure the FU will flow way more oil than your engine's oil circuit can. Typically, the engine circuit is 15 times more restrictive than the oil filter.
Only thing that could cause an oil filter to not keep up with the oil flow going top the engine is if the oil pump is putting out some crazy oil pressure/volume, which I doubt it is unless it's a flow blown racing engine you're talking about.
geeeeee a company that wont give info on a product. what are they hiding?
Z06:
Honestly, our oil pump is too good, see post below:
I have an idea for the oil-pump, just not enough time currently to pursue it...
The issue is flow rate. The 944/951 oil pump has too much flow. This might seem counter-intuitive, but let me explain:
The oil pump gerotor design is a positive-displacement pump. Doubling the RPM, ideally, doubles the amount of flow. In the 944/951, we have abnormally high oil-pressure at low RPMs, most vehicles will run 10-15psi per 1000rpm; yet, we have nearly double that pressure. Below the relief pressure, all the oil is getting pumped into the engine. However, once the maximum pressure is reached, excess oil is bypassed back into the oil pan. In our cars, after 2-3k RPM, maximum pressure is reached, and any extra pressure (flow) is diverted to the pan. So if the pressure is being diverted at 3k rpm, then doubling the RPM to 6k essentially doubles the flow. But for the most part the engine cannot use the extra flow, so all this extra oil flow is simply being diverted to the pan... At some point, the inlet flow requirements to the pump become greater than the passageways can flow (without aid), and the pump cavitates.
So the solution? Reduce how much the oil pump flows per revolution. What we don't want to do is restrict flow - reduce is not synonymous with restrict... The ideal solution would be to change the gerotor gear to one that simply flows less. In this case, at idle instead of having ~2bar oil pressure, we might only have 1bar. But, the oil pump will not have to bypass oil until a higher RPM, meaning it requires less inlet oil flow, and therefore not cavitating until a higher RPM than the stock pump.
By the way, I previously posted an incorect opening pressure for our OPRV, which is at 5 bar.
Honestly, our oil pump is too good, see post below:
I have an idea for the oil-pump, just not enough time currently to pursue it...
The issue is flow rate. The 944/951 oil pump has too much flow. This might seem counter-intuitive, but let me explain:
The oil pump gerotor design is a positive-displacement pump. Doubling the RPM, ideally, doubles the amount of flow. In the 944/951, we have abnormally high oil-pressure at low RPMs, most vehicles will run 10-15psi per 1000rpm; yet, we have nearly double that pressure. Below the relief pressure, all the oil is getting pumped into the engine. However, once the maximum pressure is reached, excess oil is bypassed back into the oil pan. In our cars, after 2-3k RPM, maximum pressure is reached, and any extra pressure (flow) is diverted to the pan. So if the pressure is being diverted at 3k rpm, then doubling the RPM to 6k essentially doubles the flow. But for the most part the engine cannot use the extra flow, so all this extra oil flow is simply being diverted to the pan... At some point, the inlet flow requirements to the pump become greater than the passageways can flow (without aid), and the pump cavitates.
So the solution? Reduce how much the oil pump flows per revolution. What we don't want to do is restrict flow - reduce is not synonymous with restrict... The ideal solution would be to change the gerotor gear to one that simply flows less. In this case, at idle instead of having ~2bar oil pressure, we might only have 1bar. But, the oil pump will not have to bypass oil until a higher RPM, meaning it requires less inlet oil flow, and therefore not cavitating until a higher RPM than the stock pump.
By the way, I previously posted an incorect opening pressure for our OPRV, which is at 5 bar.
URG8RB8 - about your post above. You can not really tell how much oil flow there is (in say GPM) by looking at only the inlet oil pressure to the engine. The poster of the comment in blue is only going by the oil pressure he's seeing on the gauge and is assuming the pump is putting out tons of oil flow because the oil pressure is pretty high at lower RPM.
If you take 2 GPM and try to force it through a pretty restrictive oiling system then it will take much more pressure to do that then to force that same 2 GPM through a much less restrictive oiling system.
Since the oil pump described above seems to go in to pressure relief mode at pretty low RPM (~3000), then that could be caused by two different things, or a combo of the two. 1) Oiling system is fairly restrictive, or 2) Oil pump has pretty high output, or 3) Combo of 1 & 2.
The only way to really know what the actual oil flow rate out of the pump is would be to know the volumetric output of the oil pump per revolution of the engine, along with the oil pressure vs. engine RPM. This kind of data is usually pretty hard to find for a specific oil pump or engine, and is hard to measure yourself.
If you take 2 GPM and try to force it through a pretty restrictive oiling system then it will take much more pressure to do that then to force that same 2 GPM through a much less restrictive oiling system.
Since the oil pump described above seems to go in to pressure relief mode at pretty low RPM (~3000), then that could be caused by two different things, or a combo of the two. 1) Oiling system is fairly restrictive, or 2) Oil pump has pretty high output, or 3) Combo of 1 & 2.
The only way to really know what the actual oil flow rate out of the pump is would be to know the volumetric output of the oil pump per revolution of the engine, along with the oil pressure vs. engine RPM. This kind of data is usually pretty hard to find for a specific oil pump or engine, and is hard to measure yourself.
The guy that made the post is a friend of mine and a very good engineer. He is working on redesigning the oil pump gerotor to sell as an upgrade/modification. I know he knows the information you are looking for, but not sure he will share it with me. As you said this information is difficult to come by. I am fairly shocked that Fram will not release flow rate data for the FU. What is the harm in that? I would even take a vague answer such as the one provided with the HP10. I would just like to know if it is even in the ball park. I think our pressure is so high because of the high output of the pump combined with the tight bearing clearances on our engines, your 3). Typically around .002" when perfect.
Has Jay said he won't release Fram Ultra, or are you assuming such because he hasn't gotten around to answering you? Big difference there that you should probably respect because if he hasn't told you directly, you are creating a false, negative impression that's unfair.
Now if Jay told you he won't release that info, blast away with my blessings but I see our connection with Jay and Fram as a valuable learning asset. It should be respectfully preserved by being fair and accurate with our comments as much as we humanly can.
Now if Jay told you he won't release that info, blast away with my blessings but I see our connection with Jay and Fram as a valuable learning asset. It should be respectfully preserved by being fair and accurate with our comments as much as we humanly can.
Jim:
You are correct. I should have stated that I called the technical support line and they said they could not give me any flow rate data for the Fram Ultra. The guy I spoke too (not Jay) told me that Fram does not test flow rate on the Ultra. I have a call into Jay now. He was driving, I will call back in 20 minutes.
You are correct. I should have stated that I called the technical support line and they said they could not give me any flow rate data for the Fram Ultra. The guy I spoke too (not Jay) told me that Fram does not test flow rate on the Ultra. I have a call into Jay now. He was driving, I will call back in 20 minutes.
OK, here is the gist of my conversation with Jay. I am now happy. He misunderstood the first E-mail I sent him on the purpose of my vehicle. He understood it as being a race only car. Now knowing that I fully intend to street drive this car 85% of the time, he fully reccomends the Fram Ultra. He does not reccomend running any filter not even the FU with no bypass valve at all. Some people remove their block by pass valves and then blame Fram when the filter collapses. I did get a ball park flow rating for the FU XG3682 of around 10 gpm. This is sufficient for my needs. The FU will filter much finer particulate at a much better percentage as compared to the HP10.
Originally Posted By: URG8RB8
Jim:
You are correct. I should have stated that I called the technical support line and they said they could not give me any flow rate data for the Fram Ultra. The guy I spoke too (not Jay) told me that Fram does not test flow rate on the Ultra.
I have a hard time believing the statement above in red.
The Ultra should flow better than a cellulose media filter because fully synthetic media just naturally has less flow restriction.
Did you ever see this thread? Purolator actually put the PureOne filter asked about on their flow bench and tested it. 5 PSID across the media at 12 GPM is pretty low restriction IMO. I'm betting the FRAM Ultra in the same sized filter would flow even better than that PureOne did, which was very good IMO.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451
Bottom line: Almost any higher tier, good name brand filter will flow way more oil than the engine can flow ... Unless, the engine is super loose and the oil pump is putting out insane pressure (ie, has the pressure relief set very high) and has a huge positive displacement per engine revolution.
Jim:
You are correct. I should have stated that I called the technical support line and they said they could not give me any flow rate data for the Fram Ultra. The guy I spoke too (not Jay) told me that Fram does not test flow rate on the Ultra.
I have a hard time believing the statement above in red.
The Ultra should flow better than a cellulose media filter because fully synthetic media just naturally has less flow restriction.
Did you ever see this thread? Purolator actually put the PureOne filter asked about on their flow bench and tested it. 5 PSID across the media at 12 GPM is pretty low restriction IMO. I'm betting the FRAM Ultra in the same sized filter would flow even better than that PureOne did, which was very good IMO.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451
Bottom line: Almost any higher tier, good name brand filter will flow way more oil than the engine can flow ... Unless, the engine is super loose and the oil pump is putting out insane pressure (ie, has the pressure relief set very high) and has a huge positive displacement per engine revolution.
Originally Posted By: URG8RB8
I did get a ball park flow rating for the FU XG3682 of around 10 gpm. This is sufficient for my needs. The FU will filter much finer particulate at a much better percentage as compared to the HP10.
But as I said before, that really doesn't mean much unless you also are told the circumstances of that "10 GPM" flow specification.
Is that with hot oil when the bypass valve starts to open?
And since nobody really knows how much flow your engine is getting from the oil pump (you only know the oil pressure), then how do you really know "10 GPM" is sufficient?
I did get a ball park flow rating for the FU XG3682 of around 10 gpm. This is sufficient for my needs. The FU will filter much finer particulate at a much better percentage as compared to the HP10.
But as I said before, that really doesn't mean much unless you also are told the circumstances of that "10 GPM" flow specification.
Is that with hot oil when the bypass valve starts to open?
And since nobody really knows how much flow your engine is getting from the oil pump (you only know the oil pressure), then how do you really know "10 GPM" is sufficient?
Z06:
In case you don't believe me, feel free to call and ask for yourself:
CONTACT US
U.S. Product Assistance
Call 1.800.890.2075
Option 1:
Customer Service
Option 2:
FRAM / Autolite for Application & Technical Information
Option 3:
Radiator Cap and Thermostat for Application & Technical Information
Option 4:
Prestone for Application & Technical Information
Option 5:
Blink Technical Information & Product Issues
Option 6:
Invoice and Statement Questions or Copies
Option 7:
Catalog Fulfillment for Request Catalogs
I chose option 2 and then made sure to ask the lady for technical support on Fram oil filter application. I promise you I asked repeatedly about flow data and he told me only the racing filters were flow rated and that the Ultra is not flow tested. I did not bother bringing this up with Jay as he was a very nice and informative person which was attempting to help me. No sense calling out one of his colleagues. I would be curious for a second person to get a second opnion. I am would like to see if you are told the same thing, so at least they would be consistent.
In case you don't believe me, feel free to call and ask for yourself:
CONTACT US
U.S. Product Assistance
Call 1.800.890.2075
Option 1:
Customer Service
Option 2:
FRAM / Autolite for Application & Technical Information
Option 3:
Radiator Cap and Thermostat for Application & Technical Information
Option 4:
Prestone for Application & Technical Information
Option 5:
Blink Technical Information & Product Issues
Option 6:
Invoice and Statement Questions or Copies
Option 7:
Catalog Fulfillment for Request Catalogs
I chose option 2 and then made sure to ask the lady for technical support on Fram oil filter application. I promise you I asked repeatedly about flow data and he told me only the racing filters were flow rated and that the Ultra is not flow tested. I did not bother bringing this up with Jay as he was a very nice and informative person which was attempting to help me. No sense calling out one of his colleagues. I would be curious for a second person to get a second opnion. I am would like to see if you are told the same thing, so at least they would be consistent.
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