Fram filters really bad?

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Filter Guy:

I honestly can't tell you what the OCI is for my son and daughter in law's Mazda. However, I will find out. The vehicle is driven as any other vehicle is driven, mostly by my daughter in law, combination of city and highway miles. The engine is the 2003, 16 valve, 4 cyl., 2.0L, with an automatic transmission. Mobil 1 10W30 is the only oil used since 23,000 miles, (milage at purchase). The vehicle has 34,000 + miles on it now. As I inspected the Fram filter components, I did not notice anything out of the ordinary except the torn and bent media pleats. I noticed nothing in the bottom of the can either.
I have no affiliation, or "axe to grind", with any company, filter or otherwise, this was done out of my own curiosity as to how the filters I am using were faring on my personnal vehicles. The Fram was installed by the dealer on the vehicle's 30,000 mile service is the reason that I came up with a Fram.
I can say that the end caps did not come off easily. I had to remove them by tearing them off in bits. I then measured the media, 60 sq. inches. Remember, this is a small filter. I think I have answered all your questions except what the recommended OCI is and I will find that out.
I'm into facts, and seeing for myself, not product bashing, filters or otherwise. If I see there's a problem with a product, I choose another. However, I do share my opinions as to how products fare during my use.
 
doubleclutch..

Thanx for the further info.

But it is not your situation that is the main problem. It is people using your pictures, without the benefit of all the information, for their own purposes.

As I have said before....it is not how the filter looks like after it is used, it is how it performs while in use....that is the key.

As long as the pleats were in tact, the filter would do it's job.

I might ask, did the dealer put in Mobil 1? Or was your first action to do your own oil change and put Mobil 1 in at that time?

You might go back to one of my earlier posts whereby switching oil brands ..and the different detergent packages...will help clean the engine and you can end up with a dirty looking filter. This should subside after another oil change.

But should the filter become real dirty, then there is the potential for pleats to rip under extra oil pressure. Which can happen from a combination of lower flow through the media and the relief valve opening to slow to allow the oil out. So it has to go somewhere. And that means finding a way through the media. Which is why changing at the recommended interval, if in fact it is 3,000 miles, you may not have seen the rip in the pleats. The extra 50% longer on the OCI means more dirt to the filter and a higher probability of a problem as you get further past the OCI. ( because of the switch in oil brands. Once your engine takes to the new oil additive detergent package, your filter won't see the same amount of contaminant)

If you or the dealer has put another Fram on the engine, change the oil at the OCI and cut it open again. Let's see how the pleats look then.
 
Huh?
An change to a new oil will blow out a filter?
Nonsense.
Following that logic, then Auto-rx will tear up any and all filters every time, as its depositing unaturally high amounts of sludge and emulsified matter on the filter during the 3000 mile rinse phase.
There have been NO reports that I can see here that Auto-rx treatments has blown out filters. Many have cut open filters to see the progress of engine cleaning without any reports of filter failure. I believe they would be looking very closely.
 
quote:
Originally posted by doubleclutch:
Filter Guy:

My son said he provided the Mobil 1 10W30 oil to the dealer but let them provide the filter. I have them all pretty well programed as to using the same oil for their individual vehicles all the time. My daughter, daughter in law, and my better half, can tell you what brand and weight of oil is used in their vehicles. Basically, I service all our vehicles with as close a 3,000 mile "severe service" OCI as we can get. Even the ones under warranty. I keep meticulus records of the services I perform, right down to windshield wiper replacement. For this Mazda I use a NAPA filter because it's easy for me to obtain. At Christmas, our kids receive as presents, oil and filters for their particular vehicles. All Mobil 1 oil and Motorcraft filters for the Fords, Mobil 1 oil and a NAPA filter for the Mazda. Don't ask me how the Mazda made it into the Ford family!! I tried to gently pursuade/guide them toward a Ford but had no success... But the little Mazda is serving them well, though.
Yes, I use Mobil 1 with 3,000 mile OCIs. Be gentle, I am just getting used to using that water thin 5W20 engine oil....... One step at a time!!!
Click to expand...
Sheesh. Ford owns about a third of Mazda anyways. Some Mazdas are really Fords (Tribute) and some Fords are really Mazdas (Probe). Mazda probably switched to 5W-20 in concert with Ford. I've even seen some references to Mazda as a "Division of Ford Motor Corp".
 
quote:
From Doubleclutch; At Christmas, our kids receive as presents, oil and filters for their particular vehicles.
Click to expand...
OK this is the most classic BITOG oil freak quote I have ever heard!

lol.gif
 
quote:
Originally posted by doubleclutch:
Filter Guy:

My son said he provided the Mobil 1 10W30 oil to the dealer but let them provide the filter. I have them all pretty well programed as to using the same oil for their individual vehicles all the time. My daughter, daughter in law, and my better half, can tell you what brand and weight of oil is used in their vehicles. Basically, I service all our vehicles with as close a 3,000 mile "severe service" OCI as we can get. Even the ones under warranty. I keep meticulus records of the services I perform, right down to windshield wiper replacement. For this Mazda I use a NAPA filter because it's easy for me to obtain. At Christmas, our kids receive as presents, oil and filters for their particular vehicles. All Mobil 1 oil and Motorcraft filters for the Fords, Mobil 1 oil and a NAPA filter for the Mazda. Don't ask me how the Mazda made it into the Ford family!! I tried to gently pursuade/guide them toward a Ford but had no success... But the little Mazda is serving them well, though.
Yes, I use Mobil 1 with 3,000 mile OCIs. Be gentle, I am just getting used to using that water thin 5W20 engine oil....... One step at a time!!!
Click to expand...
Well I don't give oil and filters as presents but at least you and I have in common the bit about records and logs.


Wiper blades are easy..But do you log when you wax the car? I hand wax mine. March 11th 2005 to be exact..
tongue.gif



y_p_w --- I had a Probe GT and loved that car. It had the Mazda engine in it. Unfortunately, I went on spring break with my son to play golf in California and came back to hail damage. Sold it after that..
 
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix:
Huh?
An change to a new oil will blow out a filter?
Nonsense.
Following that logic, then Auto-rx will tear up any and all filters every time, as its depositing unaturally high amounts of sludge and emulsified matter on the filter during the 3000 mile rinse phase.
There have been NO reports that I can see here that Auto-rx treatments has blown out filters. Many have cut open filters to see the progress of engine cleaning without any reports of filter failure. I believe they would be looking very closely.
Click to expand...
You're confusing two seperate issues.

I said that changing from one long time brand of oil to a different brand would lead to the filter being more dirty.

Using Auto RX would do the same.

The issue is what effect does that have on the filter. I think both of us can agree the filter will trap more contaminant but because of the two different reasons. Either the RX treatment or the different detergent packages.

You state posters in here changed their oil at 3,000 miles and apparently did not see any problems with their filter when using Auto RX. Fair enough. Did they go 4,500 miles as was the case with the pics from doubleclutch? Different issue then isn't it?

What I contended is that the further you go beyond the OCI the more "likelyhood" a problem can happen. Doesn't mean it will. ( Just like when I went 9198 miles between oil changes, which was 53% longer than the drain interval..and it was the first time Mobil 1 was used in my car. It had Motocraft oil in it before the change. My car had low miles on it. When RX is used, it is mainly used on higher mileage vehicles and they tell you on the package to not run it to long. Different scenarios)

There is the greater likelyhood that the media reaches capacity along with a potential for the by-pass valve to not open quick enough to allow oil downstream that the filter "could" end up with a pleat problem or worse ( collapse center tube if there is a pressure spike). Which is the second issue.

What you are also not telling, is what filters were used by those who used Auto RX? Was it the inexpensive Fram? If so, then pics would be interesting at 3,000 miles change as a comparison. If they weren't using the inexpensive Fram, then they were using filters that probably had more capacity, which would help. Knowing some of the posters in here it is conceivable they bought a filter that would give them more capacity ( such as a bigger filter than the OEM) to use with the Auto RX treatment.
 
Are you insinuating that Mobil-1 cleans as well and as efficiently as Auto-rx?
Don't think so.
Are you also saying that the damage of a filter happens after 3000 miles?
Where's the proof of that.
Are you saying that typical users of Auto-rx are in the over 100 thousand mile club?
Better check on that data too.
Seems that there have been many filter failures within the 3-4 thousand oil change interval, but you state that its somehow some type of driver/owner abuse or engine problem causing the failures.
Yet by changing filter brands to ones with a superior board and study reputation, the filters do not fail anymore.
This seems to be the stated pattern of most posters who have personally observed filter failure.
You projected about larger capacity oil filters with auto-rx, again I urge you to research the plentiful data posted on the forum, unspeced larger capacity filters are the exception not the rule.

[ June 08, 2005, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: Phoenix ]
 
Quotes by Phoenix:

"Are you also saying that the damage of a filter happens after 3000 miles?
Where's the proof of that."

Simple logic would tell you that the longer the OCI the more contaminents the filter will pick up. I've never run into any "failed" filter myself, so it's an assumption on my part that they happen after 3,000 miles - a point beyond that I'm personally seeing.

"Are you saying that typical users of Auto-rx are in the over 100 thousand mile club?
Better check on that data too."

I've done or am in the process of doing Auto-RX treatments on multiple vehicles. My personal score is 3 with over 100,000 miles an 2 with under 100,000.

"Seems that there have been many filter failures within the 3-4 thousand oil change interval, but you state that its somehow some type of driver/owner abuse or engine problem causing the failures."

The only filer I've ever seen distored pleats on was after a 2,000 mile Auto-RX rinse. This was the 2nd rinse (on one of those rare 100K vehicles). Why did the pleats distort (but not fail)? I surmised it was because the Auto-RX caused a large amount of contaminents / sludge to be released into the oil overtaxing the filter to a degree and causing it to go into by-pass enough times to distort(but not tear or rip) the media. Now if I had doubled that OCI to 4,000 miles then I might have had a different story to tell.
 
Filter Guy:

My son said he provided the Mobil 1 10W30 oil to the dealer but let them provide the filter. I have them all pretty well programed as to using the same oil for their individual vehicles all the time. My daughter, daughter in law, and my better half, can tell you what brand and weight of oil is used in their vehicles. Basically, I service all our vehicles with as close a 3,000 mile "severe service" OCI as we can get. Even the ones under warranty. I keep meticulus records of the services I perform, right down to windshield wiper replacement. For this Mazda I use a NAPA filter because it's easy for me to obtain. At Christmas, our kids receive as presents, oil and filters for their particular vehicles. All Mobil 1 oil and Motorcraft filters for the Fords, Mobil 1 oil and a NAPA filter for the Mazda. Don't ask me how the Mazda made it into the Ford family!! I tried to gently pursuade/guide them toward a Ford but had no success... But the little Mazda is serving them well, though.
Yes, I use Mobil 1 with 3,000 mile OCIs. Be gentle, I am just getting used to using that water thin 5W20 engine oil....... One step at a time!!!
 
Y p w: Yea I know Ford owns most of Mazda. The 2.0L does not call for the 5W20 oil yet. I suspect sometime in the future everyone will get on the bandwagon and spec the thinner oil. I think in the next 10 or 15 years we will have a "Global" vehicle, manufactured worldwide, same look, same performance, same oil, same filters.... how boring will that be?

Winston: I am still laughing at your post! I give the, er ah, more practicle gifts and leave the other kinds of gifts to da Mama.... I wish I had a picture of my daughter in law's face when she opened her first gift from me. Evidently she had never received oil and oil filter for her car as a Christmas present..... What's up with that??

Filter Guy:

I don't know what to say about keeping a written record of your vehicle's wax job. I haven't gone that far off the deep end.... I'm close, but haven't fell yet. I also hand wax my vehicles, right down to my Kubota tractor and Toro lawn tractor!
 
Phoenix:

Please research this forum and post where anyone who has posted pictures of "failed" filters and give us a breakdown of the mileage for each one.

I think you are the one generalizing. It has been some of us who have asked for specific information and for the most part the information of how many miles associated with the picture was not given.

Please reread what I posted.

If you can not understand that different oil formulations have different detergent packages, there is nothing more I can say.

Different detergent packages is a whole different animal than a specific product designed to be a one time cleaning agent. Do you expect to run Auto RX every time you change your oil?
 
Where's Winston, ZR2RANDO, or any one else who only wants visual evidence....

Why no comments on this???
------------------------------------------------

As a different exercise for those who like pictures and can explain things.....

Do you ever watch NASCAR, IRL, or CART?

Explain this to me, i'll use Nascar as an example but it happens in all three racing series.

Scenario:

43 cars start the race. A car gets in the marbles and causes a 3 car wreck. Those three cars need major work. That leave 40 cars on the track. All 40 cars go in for fuel and 4 tires. They all come out and line up 2 X 2 behind the pace car. They all have the same amount of warmup laps. The pace car pulls off and as they "go green" a car spins and collects a few more cars.

The announcers, crew chief, and driver all say it was "cold tires" that caused the accident.

Now explain to me why that car does not sue the tire company for a mismanufactured or defective tire(s)?

None of the other cars around him spun on "cold tires". So why did the driver of car XX?

All tires in the race are produced by one tire company and from the exact same compound during the same production run.

You've seen the tv pictures. They even replay them..

So why doesn't car number XX claim a defect? Why would just his/her car go spinning when the others in front, beside, and behind didn't?
 
What is the reason for attempts to squelch all reports of badly made filters?

Heres the deal, when joe average goes to buy a filter, any filter, he has an expectation that the filter will hold up to his useage, be it granny driving or jackrabbit driving because, more or less, what is being advertised is that 'our filters are the best for everyone everywhere'.
The result of the emperical posts on this board is caveat emptor except for your posts, joe average users are haveing problems as lubeowner has pointed out, who also has a pretty good cross section of drivers useage, whether they are grannys or jackrabbits.

If you are the expert you claim to be, we should be getting from you an in depth opinion on why these failures are happening instead of constant challenges of the veracity of the problems.
Brand specific filter failure is happening, that cannot be denied.
The why of failures, with such varied useage as reported on this forum, is being discussed and this is where your expert opinion could be useful, but instead a finger is pointed to joe average, and not to the real problem, the filter manufacturer.
Simply put, we are not the problem, the filter manufacturer is.
Can filters fail for the reasons you offer? Yes. Are those problems as common, especially with the preventative maintenance oriented oil enthusiasts on this forum, as you are inferring? No.
The problem resides elsewhere.
When one points a finger, there are 3 pointed right back at one.
 
quote:
Originally posted by Filter guy:
I always like when some people start talking in generalities.

So if an engine fails before 150,000 miles using Fram consistently...it would have lasted longer IF the owner would have used some other brand.

How so?

Fram is the market leader in filter sales. Whether some in here like it or not. For every "failure" there are countless others who go 200,000 miles or more changing their oil every 3,000 miles as they should and using Fram. ( not 4,500 miles).



I love that too, like someone saying there saying there are countless others that go 200k miles. How do you know that? Can you prove that? Any statistics proving that ANY of the cars exceeding 200k miles EVER used fram filters?

Hmmm... seems like the pot is calling the kettle black here?



Fram is designed to meet or exceed engine manufactures specs. Which also includes oil change intervals. So if the vehicle has a 3,000 mile change interval Fram should handle that. The further you go beyond 3,000 miles the more risk you take. ( or 5,000 miles if that is the OEM guideline)



My friend, I just bought a Chevy Venture van. It tells me when to change the oil using a little computer to compute how badly I abuse the thing and when it decides the time is up a light lights. I can monitor the progress with a little odometer, which starts at 100 (%) and works down. The light just lit, with 10 (%) left on the oil change odometer. 11 THOUSAND MILES put on the van before it told me to change the oil.

You can't have it both ways. You say "the filter meets or exceeds manufacturers spec (I'm SOOOOO impressed with THAT!!!!!) and yet you say "The further you go beyond 3,000 miles the more risk you take". Hmmmmm.....




If the consumer is NOT educated on the risks he/she takes by extending oil change intervals with the lower priced filters, then they are the ones subjecting their vehicle to potential problems.



That is a silly statement. My 70 year old mother has to have a degree in filter engineering in order to "not subject her vehicle to potential problems"? THAT'S THE FILTER MANUFACTURER'S JOB!!!!!!! FILTERS SHOULD NOT FAIL!

Filters are designed to be cheap so that lube shops can buy them for cheap. LUBE SHOPS are the ones doing the dirty deed, NOT my mom (or yours). And filter manufacturers are complicit in queuing up to build SH** products to meet a 50c price point..

Your argument attempts to shift all of the blame back on the ignorent schmuck getting their oil changed. The filter manufacturer knows full well what they are doing. They have tons of equipment and lots of engineers and know EXACTLY when and how their products will fail. The lube shop owner knows full well what THEY are doing.

If you want to promote that viewpoint, then you join the manufacturers and lubeowners in complicity.

The ignorant schmuck has no clue what they are doing. Auto owners are not evil people, they are just trying to minimize their costs.

If the lubeshop owner would state after each oil change, "you MUST change your oil every 3K miles or the filter will fall apart and possible cause engine damage", then you would see a whole lot less of this crap. Better yet they could say "If you want to extend the time between oil changes, you should buy this other more expensive filter".

The Lube shop owner is trying to have the best of both worlds, get the people in every 3K miles, AND buy sh** filters that cost him 50c and will work just fine for 3K miles, but not having to warn his clients of the potential problems. He simply doesn't care if the poor schmuck damages his engine by not getting his oil changed every 3k miles, in fact he benefits from it because he ends up doing the repairs. The filter manufacturers line up to sell the lube owner these filters.

And YOU defend this whole system with nonsense crap about "educated consumers"



Click to expand...
 
Here's the reality in regards to fram, at least in my area...almost everyone I know uses Fram, they have a good marketing program and most people use Fram because "that's all I've ever used". I think Fram's are good enough in most situations and if they were all failing no one would use them. Do I use Fram? No, mostly because I use Supertech at half the price on my applications. If someone gave me a case of frams I'd use them without a second thought.
 
LOL..

Sure..I know very little when it comes to filters. The only evidence "some" need is a picture and off they go.

Been in the filter biz since 1982. Handled warranty claims for a particular brand for three year....and I don't know much about why filters can fail.

But when the status quo is challenge to think in this forum, then "irrelivant questions" are asked.

Sorry if you've never seen a filter picture in this forum for your observation because of a coolant leak. So prey tell what would water/coolant in oil do to a paper based media under pressure anyway?

I suppose no one has ever used Brand X oil for years and then switch to Brand Y and cut open their filter. It may be a new phenomenon to those in here because I posed the question but filter companies have experience at that scenario. Not because they will or wont warranty the filter but the inquisitive nature of why some filters are returned with so much contaminant. But why rely on their evidence, you've never heard of it before, can't fathom it, so it can't be true.

I don't see anyone tackling the issue of a "dirty" filter which has problems flowing oil becuase of contaminant being succeptable to ripped or torn pleats. Nor sludge which contaminates the media doing the same. But niether of those two scenarios would excuse the filter would they. The conditions of dirty or to much sludge is not your problem nor should it be the filters.

I think Phoenix sums up the mentality best..we expect a filter to last, under every condition regardless of what use, as long as we want and if they don't then it is the filters fault even if it is a $2-$3-$5-$10 item.
Brilliantly put.

Instead of looking for the cause, blame the result.

----------------------------------

I see no one wants to tackle the Nascar issue. Probably another irrelivent exercise. I give you a controlled situation. One production run of a specific product, used by everyone in the race, and a "potential" problem with the product. The conditions are the same for all race teams. And yet no takers....Chickens..lol

Filter companies don't have the luxury of a controlled situation like the one I posed with the tire deal. When they make a filter they don't know if it will be sold in Bangor Maine in the winter or Tuscon Arizona in the summer. Whether the filter will be put on a car with 10,000 miles or one with 150,000 miles. It has to perform under all types of extremes.
But filter companies do have a VERY good idea what conditions can cause specific failures. Even if you've never heard or are willing to consider them.
 
quote:
Originally posted by MustangGT:
Here's the reality in regards to fram, at least in my area...almost everyone I know uses Fram, they have a good marketing program and most people use Fram because "that's all I've ever used". I think Fram's are good enough in most situations and if they were all failing no one would use them. Do I use Fram? No, mostly because I use Supertech at half the price on my applications. If someone gave me a case of frams I'd use them without a second thought.
Click to expand...
And I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole (now that I have seen what they are). My engine is worth more than 50c.
 
quote:
Originally posted by John W. Colby:
My friend, I just bought a Chevy Venture van. It tells me when to change the oil using a little computer to compute how badly I abuse the thing and when it decides the time is up a light lights. (SNIP) and yet you say "The further you go beyond 3,000 miles the more risk you take".
Click to expand...
Going beyond 3000 miles without the benefit of tools such as an oil life monitor to gauge how you are using the vehicle IS a risk.

Some alternatives for those of us without oil life monitors are: (1) examine how we use our vehicle and determine an appropriate OCI, (2) use fuel consumption to determine an appropriate OCI, (3) use oil analysis to determine an appropriate OCI.

What percentage of drivers do you suppose take the time to do any of 1 through 3 above? Do you suppose that not doing any of 1 through 3 above, not having an oil life monitor, and going beyond 3000 miles might be a risk?

Additionally, knowing that many engines are a quart low by 3000 miles, and knowing that many drivers will not check their oil, do you suppose that going beyond 3000 miles might be even riskier for that reason? (Is it just a coincidence, by the way, that GM vehicles with an oil life monitor also seem to have a low oil indicator?) EDIT: I am making an educated guess here that low oil levels would negatively impact the oil filter, and that severe-service driving reduces the lifespan of the oil filter.
 
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