Forgot to add something. The "media blow through center tube holes" failures I have seen are a result of media squirm. The endcaps fail to hold the media in place becuase there is nothing holding the center tube, endcap, media, tight. It is all cardboard mush. I have seen many with the center tube protruding a full 3/16" out of the endcap. The components are all free to sort of float around. Push the media of any used Fram filter fram side to side, and back and forth. It is very floppy and moves all over the place. As the oil pulses through the filter it eventually creates the holes that I have shown in my photographs, and the many others I have seen around the web.
Fram filters really bad?
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I always like when some people start talking in generalities.
So if an engine fails before 150,000 miles using Fram consistently...it would have lasted longer IF the owner would have used some other brand.
How so?
Fram is the market leader in filter sales. Whether some in here like it or not. For every "failure" there are countless others who go 200,000 miles or more changing their oil every 3,000 miles as they should and using Fram. ( not 4,500 miles).
But Fram would also have the most engines fail before 150K as well because they are #1 in filter sales as a brand.
It's like saying GM cars have more failures than Hyundai.
Mobil 1 filter or Pure One will have owners have engine failures as well before 150K. You probably won't here much about them because their market share is like Hyundai cars v GM.
------------------------------
Fram is designed to meet or exceed engine manufactures specs. Which also includes oil change intervals. So if the vehicle has a 3,000 mile change interval Fram should handle that. The further you go beyond 3,000 miles the more risk you take. ( or 5,000 miles if that is the OEM guideline)
When someone goes 4,500 miles between oil changes when the manufacturer says 3,000...that is 50% longer than what is recommended. ( Or 7,500 miles when they should change at 5,000)
Other "lower end" filter media will probably have similar problems, even if they are constructed with metal endcaps when you go 50% longer on your oil change interval. ( of which there have pics of those in this forum as well)
Premium filters "should" have less of a problem when joe consumer extends his/her oil change interval to this type level. But that's why you pay more for the filter. It's a consumer choice.
If the consumer is NOT educated on the risks he/she takes by extending oil change intervals with the lower priced filters, then they are the ones subjecting their vehicle to potential problems.
Follow the recommended oil change interval is the best guide.
I haven't been in the oil forum of this website but I wonder if people who pay 69 cents per quart at their local parts store when it's on special, expect it to perform and protect their engine like the oil that is $3 or more per quart when all oils meet API Petroleum and federal guidelines?????? Yet some argue a $2-3 filter should perform and last like a $8-12 one.
Funny that.....
So if an engine fails before 150,000 miles using Fram consistently...it would have lasted longer IF the owner would have used some other brand.
How so?
Fram is the market leader in filter sales. Whether some in here like it or not. For every "failure" there are countless others who go 200,000 miles or more changing their oil every 3,000 miles as they should and using Fram. ( not 4,500 miles).
But Fram would also have the most engines fail before 150K as well because they are #1 in filter sales as a brand.
It's like saying GM cars have more failures than Hyundai.
Mobil 1 filter or Pure One will have owners have engine failures as well before 150K. You probably won't here much about them because their market share is like Hyundai cars v GM.
------------------------------
Fram is designed to meet or exceed engine manufactures specs. Which also includes oil change intervals. So if the vehicle has a 3,000 mile change interval Fram should handle that. The further you go beyond 3,000 miles the more risk you take. ( or 5,000 miles if that is the OEM guideline)
When someone goes 4,500 miles between oil changes when the manufacturer says 3,000...that is 50% longer than what is recommended. ( Or 7,500 miles when they should change at 5,000)
Other "lower end" filter media will probably have similar problems, even if they are constructed with metal endcaps when you go 50% longer on your oil change interval. ( of which there have pics of those in this forum as well)
Premium filters "should" have less of a problem when joe consumer extends his/her oil change interval to this type level. But that's why you pay more for the filter. It's a consumer choice.
If the consumer is NOT educated on the risks he/she takes by extending oil change intervals with the lower priced filters, then they are the ones subjecting their vehicle to potential problems.
Follow the recommended oil change interval is the best guide.
I haven't been in the oil forum of this website but I wonder if people who pay 69 cents per quart at their local parts store when it's on special, expect it to perform and protect their engine like the oil that is $3 or more per quart when all oils meet API Petroleum and federal guidelines?????? Yet some argue a $2-3 filter should perform and last like a $8-12 one.
Funny that.....
So why would my 02 Honda CRV have a 10K mile OCI (with a FRAM blue OEM filter)? Honda must assume that the Fram filter would survive at least that long.
At one time I took a picture of a Fram filter (opened of course) with 20K hard, delivery truck miles on it. It looked perfect with no sign of breakdown. I'm no fan of Fram, however I'm not convinced they're that bad. That's just me of course.
At one time I took a picture of a Fram filter (opened of course) with 20K hard, delivery truck miles on it. It looked perfect with no sign of breakdown. I'm no fan of Fram, however I'm not convinced they're that bad. That's just me of course.
Because the media dirt holding capacity in the Fram honda filter is not the same as the media dirt holding capacity in the Fram PH8A Ford filter.quote:
Originally posted by pmwalter:
So why would my 02 Honda CRV have a 10K mile OCI (with a FRAM blue OEM filter)? Honda must assume that the Fram filter would survive at least that long.
At one time I took a picture of a Fram filter (opened of course) with 20K hard, delivery truck miles on it. It looked perfect with no sign of breakdown. I'm no fan of Fram, however I'm not convinced they're that bad. That's just me of course.
Elvis thinks i'm ok..as for everyone else in this forum...quote:
Originally posted by pscholte:
The Elves asked me if you were...like...OK
All I've done is offer my opinion based on what I had honestly experienced with Fram filters in my Nissan. It PROVED to me that the Fram filters designed to fit my Nissan where inferior to Purolator. Nobody can tell me that engine knocking at startup is a GOOD thing. It happened on a regular basis ANYTIME I used Fram. After YEARS of Fram usage I switched to Purolator Premium Plus. From that point on for another TWO YEARS, my Nissan NEVER knocked on startup again!
You peeps want to keep buying it 'cause ya like orange....go ahead. I wish Fram was a quality product, but from what I learned it was damaging my vehicle. But, like I said, if you like orange.....
You peeps want to keep buying it 'cause ya like orange....go ahead. I wish Fram was a quality product, but from what I learned it was damaging my vehicle. But, like I said, if you like orange.....
Mel,
I know I siad that I wasn't going to debate with you anymore but I had to draw the line at your last post. Are you honestly saying that a Fram filter used for 5K with 12 media blow throughs in a 2.0 VW Jetta is acceptable? Well, I saw it. It was installed by the Jiffy down the street, (Mileguard filter). Why is it ok for the crap filters out there to fail soon after 3k. THIS IS NOT THE TYPICAL OIL CHANGE INTERVAL OF AMERICAN CONSUMERS, NOR THE MANUFACTURER RECOMMENDED INTERVAL IN MOST VEHICLES. I do not recommend going past 3k with the driving conditions most, and I said most, of my customers experience. There are some cars driven that are all easy highway miles, and I feel comfortable telling them they can go longer and follow the schedule for longer drain in their manual. Does this mean I might make less money, yes, will I win their trust for life, absolutely. There is no excuse for the prematur failures I have seen in countless Fram built filters, and the lower end filters Champ builds.
It is pretty common knowledge around the web
Fram =
I know I siad that I wasn't going to debate with you anymore but I had to draw the line at your last post. Are you honestly saying that a Fram filter used for 5K with 12 media blow throughs in a 2.0 VW Jetta is acceptable? Well, I saw it. It was installed by the Jiffy down the street, (Mileguard filter). Why is it ok for the crap filters out there to fail soon after 3k. THIS IS NOT THE TYPICAL OIL CHANGE INTERVAL OF AMERICAN CONSUMERS, NOR THE MANUFACTURER RECOMMENDED INTERVAL IN MOST VEHICLES. I do not recommend going past 3k with the driving conditions most, and I said most, of my customers experience. There are some cars driven that are all easy highway miles, and I feel comfortable telling them they can go longer and follow the schedule for longer drain in their manual. Does this mean I might make less money, yes, will I win their trust for life, absolutely. There is no excuse for the prematur failures I have seen in countless Fram built filters, and the lower end filters Champ builds.
It is pretty common knowledge around the web
Fram =
Ok my turn, I use a Napa Gold Filter on my 69 Firebird and 05 Chrysler Town and Country. I have always use a Motor Craft 820s on my 97 Ford f150 with 4.6. I had not used Frams for several years because I also experienced more noise on start up in the mornings.
However, my engine with the Motor Craft filter's her recently had noise on start up and even after starting my truck after work. You will probably will not believe this but, my last two oil changes(3000 mile oci each) I have been using the orange fram and I have not been having the start noise. Go figure, maybe I have been just lucky or maybe it the Valvoline Max life. I don't know.
However, my engine with the Motor Craft filter's her recently had noise on start up and even after starting my truck after work. You will probably will not believe this but, my last two oil changes(3000 mile oci each) I have been using the orange fram and I have not been having the start noise. Go figure, maybe I have been just lucky or maybe it the Valvoline Max life. I don't know.
Winston,
Thanks for pointing out the fact that 100-150k is not high mileage. People have been trained to believe this. With modern engine oils and good filters cars can easily break the 300k mark. So your average Joe uses a Fram for say 135K, then the car begins to smoke and generally wear out. He thinks wow that Fram really did good, I got 135k out of my car. What he doesn't realize is that the Fram actually slowly killed the engine in that 135K, and with a quality filter could have doubled that. I don't think many consumers understand this concept. Only in the rarest of cases does a crap filter cause immediate and noticeable damage. It is usually just a slow wearing process over 1000's of miles.
Thanks for pointing out the fact that 100-150k is not high mileage. People have been trained to believe this. With modern engine oils and good filters cars can easily break the 300k mark. So your average Joe uses a Fram for say 135K, then the car begins to smoke and generally wear out. He thinks wow that Fram really did good, I got 135k out of my car. What he doesn't realize is that the Fram actually slowly killed the engine in that 135K, and with a quality filter could have doubled that. I don't think many consumers understand this concept. Only in the rarest of cases does a crap filter cause immediate and noticeable damage. It is usually just a slow wearing process over 1000's of miles.
Different strokes for different folks I guess..
Personally there are many reasons I dont use fram, the number 1 reason right now is that I still have over 30K miles of the 100K mile warranty left on my Cummins and the use of a fram oil filter on this engine will void the warranty, and yes Filter Guy there is a TSB out on this.
There are many documented cases of pieces of filter material clogging piston cooling nozzles and in turn causing engine failure.
So it looks like either fram is incapable or unwilling to produce a filter for cummins that at least meets (forget about exceeds) the manufacturers specifications
Personally there are many reasons I dont use fram, the number 1 reason right now is that I still have over 30K miles of the 100K mile warranty left on my Cummins and the use of a fram oil filter on this engine will void the warranty, and yes Filter Guy there is a TSB out on this.
There are many documented cases of pieces of filter material clogging piston cooling nozzles and in turn causing engine failure.
So it looks like either fram is incapable or unwilling to produce a filter for cummins that at least meets (forget about exceeds) the manufacturers specifications
Filter Guy,
Don’t know why you always start this , but as a general response to your characteristic defense of poor quality filters and typical blaming the customer.
FG- So if an engine fails before 150,000 miles using Fram consistently...it would have lasted longer IF the owner would have used some other brand.
Good chance, especially if the failure was lubrication related.
FG- Fram is the market leader in filter sales. Whether some in here like it or not. For every "failure" there are countless others who go 200,000 miles or more changing their oil every 3,000 miles as they should and using Fram. ( not 4,500 miles).
They have excellent marketing, we all know that. We also know that good marketing does NOT make a good product.
“Look how many people didn't die when they rode in a car without a seatbelt.”
“I think it's also like the smoking and cancer thing.....”
”And the drinking and driving thing”
”And the crossing a busy road thing”
Some things just have a way of catching up with you eventually…
Low quality oil filters don’t always immediately “kill” engines, they do however contribute to oil burning, low compression, poor engine performance
and accelerated general wear and tear.
FG- Fram is designed to meet or exceed engine manufactures specs. Which also includes oil change intervals. So if the vehicle has a 3,000 mile change interval Fram should handle that. The further you go beyond 3,000 miles the more risk you take. ( or 5,000 miles if that is the OEM guideline)
One of your favorite phrases- “designed to meet or exceed engine manufactures specs”…pretty much meaningless to many of us. They may be designed that way, but they don’t always PERFORM that way.
Maybe the box should say “trust us, just don’t look inside after use..”
Many mfgrs recommend OCI’s longer than 3k miles, some still recommend changing the filter only every other OCI. It seems apparent that these filters (and the economy line Champs) aren’t meeting THIS spec…..
FG- Other "lower end" filter media will probably have similar problems, even if they are constructed with metal endcaps when you go 50% longer on your oil change interval. ( of which there have pics of those in this forum as well)
Yep, the economy line of Champ is a predominant example of that, other brands don’t show up in that category as often though. That is the benefit of these topics, we can see which filters frequently have problems, and avoid them.
FG- “…but I wonder if people who pay 69 cents per quart at their local parts store when it's on special, expect it to perform and protect their engine like the oil that is $3 or more per quart when all oils meet API Petroleum and federal guidelines??????”
Oil is like anything else, people find out by UOA and VOA which ones actually DO work as advertised. Some of those $.69 oils do work as well as the more expensive ones, some don’t. People can then avoid the ones that don’t.
FG- Yet some argue a $2-3 filter should perform and last like a $8-12 one.
Many of us also know that some of those $8-12 filters are no better than some $5 filters. Cost is not the best indicator of quality, performance is. Those $2-3 filters should at least, as a minumum, not be self-destructing internally like the ones we see. You may consider that acceptable, but I don’t.
FG- Funny that.....
You always end posts with meaningless rhetoric.
Don’t know why you always start this , but as a general response to your characteristic defense of poor quality filters and typical blaming the customer.
FG- So if an engine fails before 150,000 miles using Fram consistently...it would have lasted longer IF the owner would have used some other brand.
Good chance, especially if the failure was lubrication related.
FG- Fram is the market leader in filter sales. Whether some in here like it or not. For every "failure" there are countless others who go 200,000 miles or more changing their oil every 3,000 miles as they should and using Fram. ( not 4,500 miles).
They have excellent marketing, we all know that. We also know that good marketing does NOT make a good product.
“Look how many people didn't die when they rode in a car without a seatbelt.”
“I think it's also like the smoking and cancer thing.....”
”And the drinking and driving thing”
”And the crossing a busy road thing”
Some things just have a way of catching up with you eventually…
Low quality oil filters don’t always immediately “kill” engines, they do however contribute to oil burning, low compression, poor engine performance
and accelerated general wear and tear.
FG- Fram is designed to meet or exceed engine manufactures specs. Which also includes oil change intervals. So if the vehicle has a 3,000 mile change interval Fram should handle that. The further you go beyond 3,000 miles the more risk you take. ( or 5,000 miles if that is the OEM guideline)
One of your favorite phrases- “designed to meet or exceed engine manufactures specs”…pretty much meaningless to many of us. They may be designed that way, but they don’t always PERFORM that way.
Maybe the box should say “trust us, just don’t look inside after use..”
Many mfgrs recommend OCI’s longer than 3k miles, some still recommend changing the filter only every other OCI. It seems apparent that these filters (and the economy line Champs) aren’t meeting THIS spec…..
FG- Other "lower end" filter media will probably have similar problems, even if they are constructed with metal endcaps when you go 50% longer on your oil change interval. ( of which there have pics of those in this forum as well)
Yep, the economy line of Champ is a predominant example of that, other brands don’t show up in that category as often though. That is the benefit of these topics, we can see which filters frequently have problems, and avoid them.
FG- “…but I wonder if people who pay 69 cents per quart at their local parts store when it's on special, expect it to perform and protect their engine like the oil that is $3 or more per quart when all oils meet API Petroleum and federal guidelines??????”
Oil is like anything else, people find out by UOA and VOA which ones actually DO work as advertised. Some of those $.69 oils do work as well as the more expensive ones, some don’t. People can then avoid the ones that don’t.
FG- Yet some argue a $2-3 filter should perform and last like a $8-12 one.
Many of us also know that some of those $8-12 filters are no better than some $5 filters. Cost is not the best indicator of quality, performance is. Those $2-3 filters should at least, as a minumum, not be self-destructing internally like the ones we see. You may consider that acceptable, but I don’t.
FG- Funny that.....
You always end posts with meaningless rhetoric.
Like I said..what do you tell those who have used Fram religiously and never had a problem and have in excess of 200,000 miles on their car?
They were just lucky? Well they wouldn't be the only ones considering Fram has built a billion filters over the last decade or two.
There will always be those who have problems. It might be you, it might be your neighbor.
The low end Fram design meets specs.
So if an engine has a problem the probability is other components that are causing the filter to see situations that are just beyond the spec.
I know of a case where Champ ( Luberfiner) filters collapsed. The customer went to Fleetguard. Within a year Fleetguard collapsed. So he went to Baldwin. That lasted about another year , then the Baldwin collapsed. Eventually after I had told him that the relief valve at the pump was the cause, he finally figured it out. All this after blaming the filter. He solved his problem by switching brands. Until the problem reoccured. Finally he had the oil pump looked at and changed the relief valve. Problem solved. He went back to luberfiner because I had been the only one who explained what might have caused the problem.
-------------
I also remember when there was a service bulletin out with Mitsubishi to not use Fram. ( At the time a was driving a Buick and my Buick dealer also sold Mitsu. The service writer and I got to talking when I heard him tell a Mitsu customer not to use Fram). So i called my buddies at Fram and they admitted that the part number in question was a bad fit. That Fram had redesigned the filter and the new catalog number was XXXX and they had their own bulletin out on the redesign.
I also know Fram buys filters from Fleetguard for some Cummins applications. It would not surprise me that Fram "could" switch to a purchased filter to solve the Cummins diesel pick up truck problem if they so choose.
Fram wants it's customers to have filters which meet specs. They won't sit around for 5 years selling a product where a service bulletin was issued saying that the Fram isn't any good. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know what it's like to work at a company when an OEM says your filter is no good.
There are two things those who post about a bulletin v Fram and the Cummins engine can do. One is, what date is the bulletin? Please post it, scan it and post it, or post a link on the web. Second, have you called Fram to see if they have redesigned their element or will you forever be stuck in the dark ages with old information? Because something tells me Fram would have reacted within a short period of time after the bulletin came out.
-------------------------------------------------
lubeowner:
THIS IS NOT THE TYPICAL OIL CHANGE INTERVAL OF AMERICAN CONSUMERS, NOR THE MANUFACTURER RECOMMENDED INTERVAL IN MOST VEHICLES.
Last time I read my owners manual the OEM had two categories for oil change interval. Normal and severe. For my car it is 6,000 normal and 3,000 severe.
I happen to know, because usually 70% of my miles are highway miles, my oil change interval is 6,000 miles. If I just did city driving with the occasional long distance drive, then my oil change interval would be 3,000 miles.
I also have been doing oil anaylsis for 10 years or so on various vehicles i've owned, which helps me determine my oil change interval. Which can extend to 9,000 miles when my highway driving goes beyond 70%.
But I at least read the manual and understood what my driving conditions are.
I don't care about what consumers do on their own with their oil change intervals and you can claim that most go beyond the 3,000 mile interval. Most do. It is how much they do go beyond that is the issue as it relates to the filter. 4,500 miles is 50% longer than the recommendation. Please give any other instance where the "basic" product should last 50% beyond it's recommended change. Brakes? Tires? Batteries? What other maintenance item is "expected" to go 50% beyond? Which is why there are premium filters available for those who want them. And "basic" filters for those who should be following the maintenance guidelines.
Plus, please discuss what impact "low" end oil would have if one goes 50% longer during a drain interval. Would YOU would expect a "low end" oil to last as long as a straight synthetic? Yet you want a "low end" filter to last like a straight synthetic media one.
Can you also tell me, when you claim "most" vehicles have longer drain intervals beyond 3,000 for SEVERE driving, which OEMs those are and what vehicles they are for?
And do you think if you cut open new filters for those vehicles with longer drains, you could look at the media and be able to determine what the dirt holding capacity is from one sheet to another? And if you can't with new filters, why do you think you can with used? Filter companies have literaly a hundred medias to choose from. Most look alike.
I know of a specific instance where Baldwin put a lube sheet in a fuel filter application. The customers were claiming how great the Baldwin filter lasted. That was until they got the next shipment from a different date code. Then they complained the Baldwin filter wouldn't last very long. How do i know? Because I had the Baldwin sent back to the lab for testing. Champ then knew Baldwin had made a production error. We also knew it was a one of. And the complaints of Baldwin lasting longer than Luberfiner would subside when the customer actually got the correct media in a Baldwin filter. ( If you want confirmation of this story, send me a Pm and i'll give you the distributors name where it happened and they'll explain it)
So if filter company employees have trouble looking at media and knowing what's what..I wonder how good you'll do.
Which is why filter companies would adjust to the OEM recommendations for oil changes by using different medias.
I'll also point out that European and Asian OEM's engine OEM filters are designed for "life" and not efficiency. They typically use medias in the 60-70% efficiency range. Wheras US OEM's use media's in the 80's. So if a Mercedes in Europe has a 7,500 KM oil change it is because of the lower efficiency and longer life media. Of which the US filter manufacturers have those medias available as well.
[ June 04, 2005, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Filter guy ]
They were just lucky? Well they wouldn't be the only ones considering Fram has built a billion filters over the last decade or two.
There will always be those who have problems. It might be you, it might be your neighbor.
The low end Fram design meets specs.
So if an engine has a problem the probability is other components that are causing the filter to see situations that are just beyond the spec.
I know of a case where Champ ( Luberfiner) filters collapsed. The customer went to Fleetguard. Within a year Fleetguard collapsed. So he went to Baldwin. That lasted about another year , then the Baldwin collapsed. Eventually after I had told him that the relief valve at the pump was the cause, he finally figured it out. All this after blaming the filter. He solved his problem by switching brands. Until the problem reoccured. Finally he had the oil pump looked at and changed the relief valve. Problem solved. He went back to luberfiner because I had been the only one who explained what might have caused the problem.
-------------
I also remember when there was a service bulletin out with Mitsubishi to not use Fram. ( At the time a was driving a Buick and my Buick dealer also sold Mitsu. The service writer and I got to talking when I heard him tell a Mitsu customer not to use Fram). So i called my buddies at Fram and they admitted that the part number in question was a bad fit. That Fram had redesigned the filter and the new catalog number was XXXX and they had their own bulletin out on the redesign.
I also know Fram buys filters from Fleetguard for some Cummins applications. It would not surprise me that Fram "could" switch to a purchased filter to solve the Cummins diesel pick up truck problem if they so choose.
Fram wants it's customers to have filters which meet specs. They won't sit around for 5 years selling a product where a service bulletin was issued saying that the Fram isn't any good. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know what it's like to work at a company when an OEM says your filter is no good.
There are two things those who post about a bulletin v Fram and the Cummins engine can do. One is, what date is the bulletin? Please post it, scan it and post it, or post a link on the web. Second, have you called Fram to see if they have redesigned their element or will you forever be stuck in the dark ages with old information? Because something tells me Fram would have reacted within a short period of time after the bulletin came out.
-------------------------------------------------
lubeowner:
THIS IS NOT THE TYPICAL OIL CHANGE INTERVAL OF AMERICAN CONSUMERS, NOR THE MANUFACTURER RECOMMENDED INTERVAL IN MOST VEHICLES.
Last time I read my owners manual the OEM had two categories for oil change interval. Normal and severe. For my car it is 6,000 normal and 3,000 severe.
I happen to know, because usually 70% of my miles are highway miles, my oil change interval is 6,000 miles. If I just did city driving with the occasional long distance drive, then my oil change interval would be 3,000 miles.
I also have been doing oil anaylsis for 10 years or so on various vehicles i've owned, which helps me determine my oil change interval. Which can extend to 9,000 miles when my highway driving goes beyond 70%.
But I at least read the manual and understood what my driving conditions are.
I don't care about what consumers do on their own with their oil change intervals and you can claim that most go beyond the 3,000 mile interval. Most do. It is how much they do go beyond that is the issue as it relates to the filter. 4,500 miles is 50% longer than the recommendation. Please give any other instance where the "basic" product should last 50% beyond it's recommended change. Brakes? Tires? Batteries? What other maintenance item is "expected" to go 50% beyond? Which is why there are premium filters available for those who want them. And "basic" filters for those who should be following the maintenance guidelines.
Plus, please discuss what impact "low" end oil would have if one goes 50% longer during a drain interval. Would YOU would expect a "low end" oil to last as long as a straight synthetic? Yet you want a "low end" filter to last like a straight synthetic media one.
Can you also tell me, when you claim "most" vehicles have longer drain intervals beyond 3,000 for SEVERE driving, which OEMs those are and what vehicles they are for?
And do you think if you cut open new filters for those vehicles with longer drains, you could look at the media and be able to determine what the dirt holding capacity is from one sheet to another? And if you can't with new filters, why do you think you can with used? Filter companies have literaly a hundred medias to choose from. Most look alike.
I know of a specific instance where Baldwin put a lube sheet in a fuel filter application. The customers were claiming how great the Baldwin filter lasted. That was until they got the next shipment from a different date code. Then they complained the Baldwin filter wouldn't last very long. How do i know? Because I had the Baldwin sent back to the lab for testing. Champ then knew Baldwin had made a production error. We also knew it was a one of. And the complaints of Baldwin lasting longer than Luberfiner would subside when the customer actually got the correct media in a Baldwin filter. ( If you want confirmation of this story, send me a Pm and i'll give you the distributors name where it happened and they'll explain it)
So if filter company employees have trouble looking at media and knowing what's what..I wonder how good you'll do.
Which is why filter companies would adjust to the OEM recommendations for oil changes by using different medias.
I'll also point out that European and Asian OEM's engine OEM filters are designed for "life" and not efficiency. They typically use medias in the 60-70% efficiency range. Wheras US OEM's use media's in the 80's. So if a Mercedes in Europe has a 7,500 KM oil change it is because of the lower efficiency and longer life media. Of which the US filter manufacturers have those medias available as well.
[ June 04, 2005, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Filter guy ]
Perhaps Fram is one of the strongest arguments that oil filters are not that important with modern engines and oils as long as you stick to fairly short OCI's. It is hard to argue with the idea Fram is widely used, and engine failure is seldom the reason most cars are junked. I suspect many of the older ones go when the electric windows croak.
I am disappointed at Filter Guy defending them. If he says the same thing about them as as ST, maybe I need to rethink ST.
Of course there is a long history on this board of successful use and pictures of used filters with no visible defects for the ST and other Champ brands. I am not about to discard it because of one person who resists providing more info on his aberrant results. Nor do I find frothing at the mouth posts supporting him, anything to make an informed decision on.
I am disappointed at Filter Guy defending them. If he says the same thing about them as as ST, maybe I need to rethink ST.
Of course there is a long history on this board of successful use and pictures of used filters with no visible defects for the ST and other Champ brands. I am not about to discard it because of one person who resists providing more info on his aberrant results. Nor do I find frothing at the mouth posts supporting him, anything to make an informed decision on.
Frams are notorious for causing startup valvetrain noise that will persist until the oil warms up and thins out enough to flow sufficiently to stop that noise. I had that characteristic symptom years ago until I learned about that here on BITOG. I changed brands of filters and the noise has never recurred. Any filter media has a certain flowrate per unit area”…….
That startup valvetrain noise was directly caused by those Fram filters, and was due to insufficient oil flow. It may not have “killed’ my engine, but it did not do it any favors either. It had nothing to do with the length of the OCI, it was just causing increased wear and tear at every startup, even with new oil and filter.
I would not agree with “Perhaps Fram is one of the strongest arguments that oil filters are not that important with modern engines and oils as long as you stick to fairly short OCI's.” That noise I was hearing lasted through the entire 3k OCI that I have always used, that noise only ended when I stopped using Frams.
The type of media used is an insignificant detail in relation to how the element is constructed, the element may have the most efficient/long lasting media available but if there is not enough of it the cartridge can restrict flow/be too weak internally and be a failure as a whole.
It would be like saying that a car has the best tires made, but if the lug nuts are weak, and snap off, the car will still have a wreck.
AS far as the pics of the Champ brands (particularly those with the “clicker” valves and the ecores anyway), those pics have shown me enough to know that I will use other alternatives.
But this topic is supposed to be about Frams, just seems that cheap Champs get included in that same category…
As for Frams- yeah, they cause problems, just not always immediately.
That startup valvetrain noise was directly caused by those Fram filters, and was due to insufficient oil flow. It may not have “killed’ my engine, but it did not do it any favors either. It had nothing to do with the length of the OCI, it was just causing increased wear and tear at every startup, even with new oil and filter.
I would not agree with “Perhaps Fram is one of the strongest arguments that oil filters are not that important with modern engines and oils as long as you stick to fairly short OCI's.” That noise I was hearing lasted through the entire 3k OCI that I have always used, that noise only ended when I stopped using Frams.
The type of media used is an insignificant detail in relation to how the element is constructed, the element may have the most efficient/long lasting media available but if there is not enough of it the cartridge can restrict flow/be too weak internally and be a failure as a whole.
It would be like saying that a car has the best tires made, but if the lug nuts are weak, and snap off, the car will still have a wreck.
AS far as the pics of the Champ brands (particularly those with the “clicker” valves and the ecores anyway), those pics have shown me enough to know that I will use other alternatives.
But this topic is supposed to be about Frams, just seems that cheap Champs get included in that same category…
As for Frams- yeah, they cause problems, just not always immediately.
Triple_Se7en
$50 Site Donor 2024
Quote:
AS far as the pics of the Champ brands (particularly those with the “clicker” valves and the ecores anyway), those pics have shown me enough to know that I will use other alternatives.
I agree! Not sure if I'd pick a Fram or Ecore if that's all the nearby auto store had. I'd likely drive 75 miles if need-be to buy another brand.
AS far as the pics of the Champ brands (particularly those with the “clicker” valves and the ecores anyway), those pics have shown me enough to know that I will use other alternatives.
I agree! Not sure if I'd pick a Fram or Ecore if that's all the nearby auto store had. I'd likely drive 75 miles if need-be to buy another brand.
My dad used Fram for years, he told me one time he bought one for his buick (PH3387A) I believe, and there was a loose round piece of plastic moving around inside, anyways he took a look at another PH3387A at the store and the little plastic disk was mounted in the back of the can. I imagine it was glued or something and came loose.
It's not about defending Fram.
It's more about peoples perceptions and dare I say..the mob mentality because of pics in here.
A: On the one hand you have the OEM specs.
B: On the other you have filter companies building their filters to meet or exceed those specs.
Now, you have pictures of "failed" filters.
Or pictures of media that is shocking, shocking I say.
And people in this forum get the mob mentality it must be the filter fault.
It can't be the conditions the filter is used in can it?
It can't be that the specs from the OEM are so "poor" that filter companies can supply low end product is it? The "spec" is 3,000 miles, so why can't I go 4,500?
But yet the specs are the specs, after all engine companies have had years and years of building engines and know what performance they need, and the OEM filters are great and just how can a Fram or clicker valve filter do what it does and look so poor and I wouldn't use one of those on my car. The sky is falling, the sky is falling.
Always refer to A and B..
Boring answer and not the answer people want in here.
The filter spec is written around the oil change interval with a safety factor involved. Because engine companies do know consumers don't always go 3,000 miles between oil changes. But they aren't written for a 50% extension. If that were the case, then the engine OEM's would TELL YOU the oil change interval is 4,500 miles.
Just because some in here EXPECT a Filter to be bullet proof and last however long someone wants to run one on their car, they are going to be disappointed in a lot of brands of filters then. My advise to them is always buy Pure One or Mobil 1 or other filter costing $10 or more. Because anything less and they may be in for a shock. They still may be in for a shock anyway, but their chances are reduced.
Yes, Fram filters can look crappy when you cut them open. Yes, clicker valve filters can look crappy as well. It's not about how the filter looks after use, it is about how it performs during use. There are people in this forum who use or have used clicker valve filters and do oil analysis and have experienced receiving good lab reports. I ran a clicker valve Super Tech 9,000 miles with a good lab report. Yet, it is possible for a filter to not go 9,000 miles and look like those pictured in this forum. So the question is, why? Why can one last 9,000 miles but not 4,500? Dare I say....the conditions the filter saw on the individual engine? No..can't be.. can it...
But when we had pictures of the clicker valves elements....did we ever get the data about their use? Mileage between changes, etc? And if not knowing the data about the filters use doesn't matter to some in here..then why doesn't it?
The bridge is over there when you want to jump to conclusions..
It's more about peoples perceptions and dare I say..the mob mentality because of pics in here.
A: On the one hand you have the OEM specs.
B: On the other you have filter companies building their filters to meet or exceed those specs.
Now, you have pictures of "failed" filters.
Or pictures of media that is shocking, shocking I say.
And people in this forum get the mob mentality it must be the filter fault.
It can't be the conditions the filter is used in can it?
It can't be that the specs from the OEM are so "poor" that filter companies can supply low end product is it? The "spec" is 3,000 miles, so why can't I go 4,500?
But yet the specs are the specs, after all engine companies have had years and years of building engines and know what performance they need, and the OEM filters are great and just how can a Fram or clicker valve filter do what it does and look so poor and I wouldn't use one of those on my car. The sky is falling, the sky is falling.
Always refer to A and B..
Boring answer and not the answer people want in here.
The filter spec is written around the oil change interval with a safety factor involved. Because engine companies do know consumers don't always go 3,000 miles between oil changes. But they aren't written for a 50% extension. If that were the case, then the engine OEM's would TELL YOU the oil change interval is 4,500 miles.
Just because some in here EXPECT a Filter to be bullet proof and last however long someone wants to run one on their car, they are going to be disappointed in a lot of brands of filters then. My advise to them is always buy Pure One or Mobil 1 or other filter costing $10 or more. Because anything less and they may be in for a shock. They still may be in for a shock anyway, but their chances are reduced.
Yes, Fram filters can look crappy when you cut them open. Yes, clicker valve filters can look crappy as well. It's not about how the filter looks after use, it is about how it performs during use. There are people in this forum who use or have used clicker valve filters and do oil analysis and have experienced receiving good lab reports. I ran a clicker valve Super Tech 9,000 miles with a good lab report. Yet, it is possible for a filter to not go 9,000 miles and look like those pictured in this forum. So the question is, why? Why can one last 9,000 miles but not 4,500? Dare I say....the conditions the filter saw on the individual engine? No..can't be.. can it...
But when we had pictures of the clicker valves elements....did we ever get the data about their use? Mileage between changes, etc? And if not knowing the data about the filters use doesn't matter to some in here..then why doesn't it?
The bridge is over there when you want to jump to conclusions..
I just changed the oil in my wifes car(98 mazda 626 2.0 198k), it had a tg7317 on it and the adbv was not sealing on it. This is the only fram I have used on this car and likely will be the last.The media in this filter looked ok but it also had it hanging out of the center tube like the pic in this thread. this filter had less than 3k miles on it.This was also the 3rd filter in a 8k oci using m1ep 10w30. The 1st two filters in this oci were st6607 the adbv were great on those, but there was 1 torn pleat where it was bonded to the metal in the first st6607. how ever it did have around 4500 miles on it and there is not as much filtering media in st6607 as there is in gl14612(this filter was used in previous oil change, there were no problems with this filter,I also put a new one on for the next oci).
These are the only filters I have cut open on this car the gl14612 looked like far better quality filter.
These were also the last 4 filters on this car.
I only started doing this since I found this site in January. Seems strange that 2 of the 4 filters I checked have had something wrong with them.( and happen to be the same brands others have had trouble with)
I will continue checking the filters when I take them off. I looking for over 300k out this ride and hope to get there.
By the way recomended oci(and filter) for this car is........ severe 5000 miles....... normal is 7500 miles........
These are the only filters I have cut open on this car the gl14612 looked like far better quality filter.
These were also the last 4 filters on this car.
I only started doing this since I found this site in January. Seems strange that 2 of the 4 filters I checked have had something wrong with them.( and happen to be the same brands others have had trouble with)
I will continue checking the filters when I take them off. I looking for over 300k out this ride and hope to get there.
By the way recomended oci(and filter) for this car is........ severe 5000 miles....... normal is 7500 miles........
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