Ford 11 speed AT Patent

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I was once in the 4-5 speeds max camp. Then I drove a Ram with the 8 speed. Didn't matter whether it was V6 or V8 it was flat out amazing.

More shifting does NOT increase wear, it actually reduces it. And you don't yet have a CVT design that can stand up to a high torque application. "Ratio spread" is what the engineers are looking for. Nice super low first gear to make starting off effortless and tall long legged gears for the highway to get fuel economy. My Ram has 3.91 gears yet gets great mileage.

It's a great time to be looking for a truck. I can't wait to see what's next...


I was in the same camp. When I first drove the new at the time Mercedes 7spd in 2007 I hated it, still do. Its a horrible gear box.

But the new ones are nice, the computer logic that drives them has gotten so much better. I love the Zf8, I think its the best gear box you can buy in anything right now.

When I drive my buddies 2013 Suburban with the 6spd I just wish it had the ZF in it; its simply a generation behind.

 

[Kruse]

Originally Posted By: Kawiguy454

An engine highly optimized to run at a very specific RPM. Couple that to an 11 speed automatic gearbox and you get efficiency AND power.



I actually read every post before replying and this ^ was what I was going to reply if nobody else had said it.
It's a lot easier to make an engine most efficient at a very narrow RPM band than to have it be highly efficient for a very wide RPM band. They will probably have this engine running at a narrow, set RPM and just have the tranny do all the compensation.
For the record, though, I'm not saying I would really want to own one because someday it will break down and the repair cost will be about 3-4 times higher than a regular transmission.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Kruse
It's a lot easier to make an engine most efficient at a very narrow RPM band than to have it be highly efficient for a very wide RPM band. They will probably have this engine running at a narrow, set RPM and just have the tranny do all the compensation.


Yes, and this is what makes these 8 speed transmissions so frustrating for me to drive (and moreso with a 9/10/11 speed probably). The transmission programming never lets the engine move off its "torque band", so the engine often feels "stuck" at 2,000 rpm or whatever that pre-defined narrow band is for that engine. You can floorboard the thing, and it'll move. But it's a very unnatural feeling, because there's no progressiveness to the throttle response.

Efficient? Yes. Frustrating? Also yes.

 

[VNTS]

I dontknow, I have new Overland with the Hemi and the best three things on it are, the Hemi, quadra Lift air suspension( very skeptical but took the chance and it is great) and the HP70 8spd. it is always in the correct gear and when you hammer it, no waiting to shift, downshift immediatly and off you go. Have averaged over 22.5 all around, not bad for a 5400 lb tank.

just put a Volant intake with Donaldson power core filter, now it sounds great but tough to keep my foot out of it. Lots of fun when you take it out of ECO mode and put in sport mode and play with the paddle shifters LOL


Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Kruse
It's a lot easier to make an engine most efficient at a very narrow RPM band than to have it be highly efficient for a very wide RPM band. They will probably have this engine running at a narrow, set RPM and just have the tranny do all the compensation.


Yes, and this is what makes these 8 speed transmissions so frustrating for me to drive (and moreso with a 9/10/11 speed probably). The transmission programming never lets the engine move off its "torque band", so the engine often feels "stuck" at 2,000 rpm or whatever that pre-defined narrow band is for that engine. You can floorboard the thing, and it'll move. But it's a very unnatural feeling, because there's no progressiveness to the throttle response.

Efficient? Yes. Frustrating? Also yes.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'd pass. 5-6 speeds, and/or a ZF 8 speed are enough for me.


Even 8 is too many, at least when not programmed properly. I had a 300 rental for a month a few years ago with the ZF 8 speed. I chose this car over a Hyundai Sonata with great anticipation. I found the transmission pretty frustrating to drive. I can live with 6 speed transmissions when done right. I think a 5 is about perfect.


I tend to agree, but I think ultimately it may all come down to the programming and the transmission / engine combination; the Hydramatic 5L40E in my six cylinder G8 is terrifically programmed and matched to the HF V6 in that car, as is the ZF 6 speed and AJ-V8 in my wife's Jaguar Xj8.

I'm less impressed with the programming in the 6T40E (?) in my wife's Torrent GXP. It wants to hold the top gears more than I like, and in low speed / hill climbs, I find myself resorting to manual mode to drop to fourth gear. The HF V6 in that car has more than adequate power, but the gear ratios / programming just do not seem to utilize it as effectively as the HF V6 / 5L40E in the Holden in the routes we drive. Maybe GM just doesn't have a good transverse six speed, although I have to say I was not all that impressed with the six speed / V8 combo that went in the V8 powered G8's. I passed on it in both the GT and GXP variants when they pulled the plug on the marque. The Solstice also has a 5L40E, but it's been so long since I've driven it, I just don't recall much about how it's programmed / matched to the Ecotec in that car.

How much gas mileage do they need to squeak out of cars these days, anyway? Our HF V6 fleet can already pull 29 mpg pulling back and forth over the local Boston Mountains between our two homes, and the Jag can do better than 30 on the same route. For full size cars, that seems more than adequate.

Still, I haven't had the opportunity to drive a well programmed 8 + speed, so I'm in no position to contradict those that own them and seem well pleased with them.

 

[nthach]

ZF and Aisin themselves say we're hitting diminishing returns past 8 gears. And CVTs can't handle too much power although Subaru is bolting one behind the FA20DIT on the Forester XT and WRX. Although I drove a 8-speed Lexus LS460 and it felt great to me, typical Lexus smooth...

I'm surprised Allison or ZF isn't marketing a heavy-duty automatic beyond 6-speeds - yes they do have 10-12 speed AMTs, but Voith is sticking to 4 for buses.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Win
I tend to agree, but I think ultimately it may all come down to the programming and the transmission / engine combination...


You're absolutely right -- programming is key. I'll put on my flame suit, here...domestic brands just don't program an automatic how I like. I've never driven one that I've been satisified with. They commonly hold high gears longer and/or want to upshift far sooner than I'd have them to, which inevitably leads to another frustrating attempt at getting it to downshift. This is frustrating regardless of the speed count -- it was as frustrating with our Chrysler Town & Country (4-speed) as it was with that Chrysler 300 (8-speed).

The ability to manually control the thing can be a Band Aid that helps to mitigate poor programming. Unfortunately, the Chrysler 300 I had didn't have that, either. It had Chrysler's "electronic" shifter that let you choose Drive or Low and that was about it. I think Low would let it rise to about 3,000 rpm in 1st, and then it'd shift into 2nd and hold 2nd. I found myself using Low to accelerate through 2nd, get up to a nice cruising speed, then putting it back into D to let it upshift through gears 3-8.

It wasn't until we drove our then-new-to-us MDX through the mountains of West Virginia shortly after we got it that I really appreciated good programming. It would downshift on a hill and actually hold that lower gear until you got to the top of the hill. Try as you might to "trick it" into upshifting with the gas pedal, it just couldn't be fooled -- it was going to hold that gear until it reached the peak. And going downhill, you can ride the brake to control your speed if you want...but if you give it just a bit more brake, it'll downshift at least one gear for you to help control your speed. Compared to what I was used to (mostly, GM and Chrysler programming), it just seemed genius.

In agreement with your suggestion, my negative opinion of the 8-speed is probably due to Chrysler's programming of it rather than the unit itself.

 

[demarpaint]

^^ I had similar complaints driving a Chrysler 300 as well.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: VNTS
I dontknow, I have new Overland with the Hemi and the best three things on it are, the Hemi, quadra Lift air suspension( very skeptical but took the chance and it is great) and the HP70 8spd. it is always in the correct gear and when you hammer it, no waiting to shift, downshift immediatly and off you go. Have averaged over 22.5 all around, not bad for a 5400 lb tank.

just put a Volant intake with Donaldson power core filter, now it sounds great but tough to keep my foot out of it. Lots of fun when you take it out of ECO mode and put in sport mode and play with the paddle shifters LOL


Ah yes, the intoxicating torque of the modern day Hemi. You bet it's fun!

And surprisingly efficient. As you (and others) have noticed the programming is quite good, always eager and ready to go, yet relaxed highway cruising with no lag on the downshifts.

As stated by many others, the programming is everything. The exact same 8 speed trans is in dozens of different vehicles from Bentleys to Jaguars, and you can bet it feels different in every one...

 

[Hootbro]

Just because they got a patent, does not mean they will ever bring it to market. Overwhelmingly vast majority of automotive patents never make it to a working vehicle sold at retail. They are just place holders most times until they figure what will actually work and what will make them money.

 

[user52165]

It's not stated what the apps are. The bigger the rig, the more sense it makes (usually).

 

[TiredTrucker]

One thing many forget in comparing something like an 18 in a semi truck and the setups in the smaller vehicles is, it is extremely rare to use each and every gear in an 18 every time. Many times I start out in 3rd or 4th, and use skips (full shifts) on some shifts and splits on the top side. Only on extreme pulls on serious grades or soft ground, and very heavy, does one start out in the basement and work each gear on up. Working an 18 in a truck is an art form. You have to really understand your motor. That is why hardly any fleets will spec 18 speeds. They are not forgiving transmissions in the hands of amateurs, but they are really nice for the experienced driver who knows how to take advantage of one.

But the whole idea behind going with more and more gears is to keep the motor within a narrow RPM range that is most efficient for the motor. Narrow RPM spreads made available via more transmission gears that have tight ratios are better than wide RPM spreads. Doesn't matter if it is a gasser or diesel.

 

[bammer5609]

They can make a 25 speed if they want, if a 5 sp manual is still available, I will take it in a heartbeat. I could give a rats @$% about gaining a couple extra mpg. As long as I can shift gears, gimme a manual.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: bammer5609
They can make a 25 speed if they want, if a 5 sp manual is still available, I will take it in a heartbeat. I could give a rats @$% about gaining a couple extra mpg. As long as I can shift gears, gimme a manual.

You don't like 6 speed close ratio manual ? Most newer cars with manual transmission have 6 speed, 2016 Mazda Miata has 6 speed close ratio manual.

 

[pezzy669]

I am completely ok with 6-8 speeds, looking at real world feedback from Chrysler's foray into 9 speed territory I think we have definitely hit the point of diminishing returns.

Go look at YouTube the 0-60 of the Chrysler 200 2.4/9 speed and then check out fueleconomy.gov to compare the 200 mileage to its nearest 6-7 speed competitors (Accord, Camry, Mazda6). Despite class leading technology (MultiAir & 9 Speed Auto) the 200 is a joke in relation to the others.

Dual Clutch - While Ford's efforts have not been perfect at least they are trying and I am hoping they are trying to improve the units. VW pretty much nailed it out of the bag. I think the difference between the Ford and VW boxes are dry (Ford) vs wet (VW/Audi) clutches. Regardless I would not hesitate to sign on the dotted line for either.

CVT - Ehhhh jury is still out. While I don't mind the driving characteristics and have actually enjoyed the performance all the Nissan units I have driven I just shudder to think of the reliability (because of Nissan). Just the other day I had to help a vendor push her 2nd Generation ('09-14) Murano out of the drive lane of a shopping center because her transmission just completely gave up at 66k miles.

 

[ragtoplvr]

The fuel saved over the life of the transmission will never pay for the increased cost of repair over a 4 or 5 speed when it fails.

I do not want.

Rod

 

[HTSS_TR]

For some applications such as high power engines and higher cruising speed of triple digits, 8-9 speed are probably better than 6-7 speed. But for a family sedan with less than 200 HP and cruising at around 70-80 MPH or less 6-7 speed is more than adequate.