F-14 Questions Answered - Ask Away

We lost 0 F-14s in combat...but the truth is, we shot down no airplanes, either.

The reasons for that are simple: The USAF scheduled the missions in bad guy country. They put their fighters where the threat was, and left the Navy over the water on defensive patrol.

More importantly, the Iraqis knew the F-14s reputation. Eight years of open combat with Iran taught them that. Despite our best efforts to hide ourselves (classified methods, but you get the idea...) and not spook them, they ran every time a Tomcat was in the area...we couldn't get close. They just ran.

So, we never got a chance to fight anyone.

But, when I went in country, as a fighter (not Recce), my job was to be certain that my buddies in the A-6 (which was a sitting duck against any fighter) made it to the target and back home to the boat safely.

We were 100% successful in that. Perhaps we won through intimidation, but it really doesn't matter. I made certain they got home safely. That was my mission.
 
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Yeah - they do...so the F-14 has 4 kills...Libyan fighters, all...

I was thinking of big-time combat, Gulf War, etc...and forgot all about those...

An F-14 shot down a helicopter, too, but I didn't count that...
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Yeah - they do...so the F-14 has 4 kills...Libyan fighters, all...

I was thinking of big-time combat, Gulf War, etc...and forgot all about those...

An F-14 shot down a helicopter, too, but I didn't count that...


I guess you might count the Iranian F-14 kills against Iraq in the early 80's?
 
No, I don't.

The Original question was the USAF F-15 kill ratio. So, then, the proper comparison was the USN kill ratio.
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
No, I don't.

The Original question was the USAF F-15 kill ratio. So, then, the proper comparison was the USN kill ratio.


When bringing up the F-15, I'd definitely include the Israeli totals ! THEY saw action.
I've heard the combined total is something like a 105 to zero air to air tally for all worldwide F-15's. (And I'm not counting an F-15J who sidewindered his own wingman by accident!) All with a grain of salt, since the IDAF operates in secrecy and might not admit to anything.

The Iranians might be into obfuscation even more so about their F-14 records anyway.
 
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Article today in Foxtrot Alpha re the F14 written by the RIO on the last flight of type:

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/an-elite-f-14-airman-explains-why-the-tomcat-was-so-imp-1610043625


Their faces say everything.
t6ju1kxcmuqg1mnkaisz.jpg
 
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A little change of pace here, I've always wondered if fighters had ice protection. Did the F-14 have ice protection and how did the formation of ice on the aircraft affect it's flight characteristics? Being variable sweep I imagine it could be quite significant. What was the flight envelope on that beast like? Did it have a Vx or a Vy, what about a safe single engine speed? What about stall recovery? What about he hydraulic systems? How much does the pitot static system differ from us pokeys under Mach 1? I'm assuming she doesn't have an alpha vane.


Sorry for all the questions. I get some time to myself for a few days. Thanks for your time Astro.
 
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Originally Posted By: SEMI_287
A little change of pace here, I've always wondered if fighters had ice protection. Did the F-14 have ice protection and how did the formation of ice on the aircraft affect it's flight characteristics? Being variable sweep I imagine it could be quite significant. What was the flight envelope on that beast like? Did it have a Vx or a Vy, what about a safe single engine speed? What about stall recovery? What about he hydraulic systems? How much does the pitot static system differ from us pokeys under Mach 1? I'm assuming she doesn't have an alpha vane.


Sorry for all the questions. I get some time to myself for a few days. Thanks for your time Astro.


Semi - please forgive me. Been off the 'net for a while and missed this question...

So, icing protection was limited to engine heat - IGV on the TF-30 and simple 1st stage on the F-110. The F-110 engines had the additional feature of moving the bleed ramp (#4) up a bit when engine anti-ice was selected on - kept ice from building up on that ramp face and potentially creating FOD.

No airframe/leading edge anti-ice was built in.

Ice formation affected it the same as all airplanes...but we could usually climb out of icing if needed...and icing depends on total air temp...so, that was easily increased.

Vx and Vy make sense only when there is a single max power setting...so, if you wanted to climb at best rate in AB, it was 450 KIAS until 0.9 IMN...at which point you were climbing well over 30,000 FPM at sea level. You flew 0.9 IMN until about 35,000'...then transitioned to 1.4 IMN and the airplane was still climbing at over 10,000 FPM... That was Vy.

Need Vx? Well...at that airspeed, you could climb straight up for quite a while...clearing about anything...

IF you inadvertently flew into IFR when in mountainous terrain, Max AB, 45 degrees pitch was the recommended recovery procedure...short of encountering Everest, you would clear anything...and even Everest wouldn't be an issue unless you started the pull-up late...

VminSE depended on engine and power setting. In AB in the TF-30 airplanes, it was 140 KIAS. Below that, you can't control the yaw. In the F-110 airplanes, VminSE was 180 KIAS in AB, hence the installation of ATLS (Asymmetric Thrust Limiting System, described earlier). Having a VminSE well above your rotation/cat launch speed put you in an untenable part of the flight envelope...

Stall recovery was easy - forward stick. The big tails had great pitch authority down to about 80 KIAS. See some of my earlier posts on the handling...

Loss of control is a complex subject in this airplane.

Two hydraulic systems. Left handled left side stuff and the big services (landing gear/brakes). Right side handled the right side stuff. Power Transfer unit between them gave good hydraulics with an engine shut down. An emergency flight control module provided hydraulic power to just rudders and stabs via an electric motor if you lost everything else. You could land on a runway, and even refuel, but there wasn't enough control response rate to handle a carrier landing. The BFCM (Back-up Flight Control Module) was designed to allow a battle-damaged airplane to egress combat...to save the crew...not to get the airplane back aboard.

It did have an AOA sensor...but not a simple vane - that wasn't sensitive enough. On the left side of the fuselage, just below the pilot's station, was a little probe. Looked like a tiny ice cream cone. It rotated to balance pressure between ports on the conical surface. The degree of rotation = AOA.

The pitot-static system was conventional - but trans-sonic and supersonic flight required compensation because the readings would get pretty far away from true. The world's first integrated circuit (circa 1968) was the Air Data Computer in the F-14. Even with the ADC working, you would get altitude errors of up to +/- 2,000' when between 0.95 and 1.2 IMN. Once the airplane was good and supersonic (supersonic flow over the whole airframe) the readings were accurate again...mostly...2.0 IMN was about 2.15 TMN...it was just hard to continuously update all those pressure changes.

Vne on the airplane was set at 780 KIAS/1.88 IMN (for a clean airplane, stores would reduce that). The limits were set for airframe and engine AB life. 1.88 IMN = 2.0 TMN, for example...and the powers that be felt that was sufficient for tactical use.

The airplane itself was perfectly happy going faster than the arbitrarily imposed numbers...I'm here to tell you that it was nice and steady at 900 KIAS...and at 2.0 IMN (which, as I mentioned was 2.15 TMN) I've seen 850 KIAS in level flight. That was about 1.4 IMN at 10,000 feet. A lot of dynamic pressure on the jet, but it was happy, stable and perfectly controllable.
 
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Astro,

I'm sure you've heard of the civilian Mig "Edge Of Space" flights that are offered to civilians with enough cash. I wondered if you could comment on them? How they are done, ect.? I've read that in the colder Winter months they can take you to over 100,000 ft.

Would this be a parabolic type flight, or is it possible for a fighter to maintain level flight at that altitude? Are the engines capable of producing usable thrust that high? Would the flame out risk be high? I know your expertise is with the F-14, and not the Mig, but the aerodynamics involved are still pretty close, are they not? Would the whole airplane be "mushy" with so little air at that altitude? I've watched these altitude record attempts made in the Dakota's in the Winter with the F-15. I can't imagine allowing civilians to ride along.
 
You can express the performance of every airplane via "Ps" curves. It's a graph, with altitude as y-axis, airspeed (usually in Mach for high performance airplanes) on the x-axis and then plotted curves showing the specific excess power at each point.

If you change the stores/drag parameters of the airplane, or its weight, the Ps changes. With drag, they can change dramatically. And yes, as you suspected, they change with temperature. Cold air makes engines and wings work better because of the increased density.

The F-14 climb profile that I described earlier is, in essence, a set of speeds/altitudes that intercepts the parts of the plotted curves where Ps is greatest.

Curves for US fighters are generally classified, though for older airplanes, like the F-14, I don't believe they are anymore. Curves for adversary airplanes, and how we got them plotted, are highly classified.

The "Edge of Space" flights are done with a Mig-29. It doesn't have a lot of fuel. It was designed as a shorter range, point-defense fighter. It does, however, have terrific thrust/weight. And its Ps curves are impressive.

I know of no airplane that can sustain flight above about 65,000' except the SR-71. But look at the cruise speed of the Blackbird...The F-14B model could sustain over 60,000' (verified that one afternoon, but ran out of airspace to see how high it would go).

There is a Ps=0 curve, and for most fighters, the top of that curve isn't level, or smooth...it has two high points, one subsonic, and one supersonic, with the supersonic point being higher in altitude.

I've no doubt that the Mig-29, when flown in a low-drag (no external stores like missiles or tanks) configuration, can get to 70,000'. I don't know that it could sustain that altitude as you are likely above the Ps=0 line.

From the "Edge of Space" website description, the airplane is ballistic for a bit of the flight to 70,000'. That is to say; the pilot has traded kinetic energy (airspeed) for potential energy (altitude) but it's not sustainable. Pull the nose up at high altitude and high mach and the airplane will climb, but decelerate, as it goes above the Ps=0 line.

You can get pretty far above that line...but it's not sustainable...and the airplane will lose speed and descend pretty quickly...so, a quick, substantial pull up from say, 50,000' and mach 1.8, which is within the Mig-29's capability, and the airplane will rapidly climb to 70,000'...but to retain control as the airspeed bleeds off, the pilot will "unload" or fly at less than one G so that the wings don't have to make as much lift, and angle of attack is minimized, and the airplane follows a parabolic arc up, and back down...
 
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Hello Astro14. I'm doing research on the maneuvering devices on the Tomcat and have some questions specific to the maneuvering flaps and slats.

My understanding is that with landing gear up and main flaps up, the CADC would control the maneuvering flaps based on AOA but the pilot had control that could override the CADC with a thumbwheel. From what I read, the pilot could dial in the maneuvering flaps partially or fully, extend or retract, with the thumbweel and they would stay in that position until the pilot adjusted it with the thumbweel or the CADC extend/retract logic intercepted the current selected position and at that point the maneuvering flap/slats would return to the auto mode.

Is my understanding correct that when the pilot used the thumbwheel to extend the maneuvering flaps/slats that the thumbwheel would return to the center position on the stick but the maneuvering flaps/slats would stay in the position the pilot selected?

I've seen a lot of videos with Tomcats departing with the maneuvering flaps/slats extended but haven't found what would factor in to the crew selecting this configuration for departure. Any info is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Bill
 
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Originally Posted By: evvatc



Hello Astro14. I'm doing research on the maneuvering devices on the Tomcat and have some questions specific to the maneuvering flaps and slats.

My understanding is that with landing gear up and main flaps up, the CADC would control the maneuvering flaps based on AOA but the pilot had control that could override the CADC with a thumbwheel. From what I read, the pilot could dial in the maneuvering flaps partially or fully, extend or retract, with the thumbweel and they would stay in that position until the pilot adjusted it with the thumbweel or the CADC extend/retract logic intercepted the current selected position and at that point the maneuvering flap/slats would return to the auto mode.

Is my understanding correct that when the pilot used the thumbwheel to extend the maneuvering flaps/slats that the thumbwheel would return to the center position on the stick but the maneuvering flaps/slats would stay in the position the pilot selected?

I've seen a lot of videos with Tomcats departing with the maneuvering flaps/slats extended but haven't found what would factor in to the crew selecting this configuration for departure. Any info is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Bill


Hey Bill - Your description is basically correct. I don't know what your source is, but it matches my memory of how the system worked, so it's got to be pretty good.

The thumbwheel was spring loaded to center. It also controlled DLC (with landing flaps selected and DLC engaged using the switch on the side of the stick). It was a vernier switch, it measured how far you moved it, so, for DLC, it moved the spoilers proportionally to the amount of thumbwheel movement.

The thumbwheel did the same for maneuver flaps.

In flight, the CADC extended, or retracted, maneuver flaps based on AOA. Below about 0.7 IMN, they were extended at 10.5 AOA, retracted at 8.5 (I think, been a long time now). That "band" between extension and retraction kept them from cycling in/out if you were flying near those values. Above 0.7 IMN, the schedule was slightly different, it depended on wingsweep position, but the "band" remained.

If you had manually selected extension, and the AOA went below 8.5, the CADC would retract them. If you hadn't extended them and went above 10.5 AOA, the CADC would extend them for you.

Maneuver flaps gave you partial leading edge extension, and main flap extension to about 7 degrees. (Again, been a while). The main flaps were the outer two panels, the aux flap was the inboard panel, and aux flap was not extended during maneuver flap use. Aux flap extension limited wingsweep to 21 degrees to prevent flap impingement on the fuselage...

With the leading edge extended slightly, and the main flaps extended slightly, the wing had slightly increased camber, and better airflow at high AOA. Departure resistance was improved. Stall performance was improved. Turn performance was improved.

So, in use, I would manually select maneuver flap extension if I knew I was about to get into a hard turning fight. About a second or two prior to a visual merge in ACM, I would roll them (that's what the thumbwheel felt like) out to be ready for the high-G maneuvering and high AOA that was about to happen.

If you flew the airplane at max endurance (minimum fuel burned per minute aloft), it was pretty slow...about 210 KIAS...and right near 10 AOA...so I would often have to roll the maneuver flaps back up, because I was loitering, trying to save fuel.

In the old days of the airplane (70s and early 80s), there were only two authorized takeoff flap positions: full and up. Full allowed a very short takeoff roll, and low rotation speed, and higher gross weight, but it was a higher drag configuration, and flap retraction when in formation was a pain as the trim change was large.

So, when you didn't need/want the extra lift afforded by full flaps, e.g. for formation takeoff, or when the airplane was light, or when the runway was long, you would take off with flaps up and avoid the trim change. The airplane was very different in those two settings. With full flaps, it would balloon into the air at quite low speeds with very little pitch change required for rotation and climb. With flaps up, the airplane would take much more pitch to rotate and start the climb, and that rotation speed would be 20-25 knots higher. It was smoother than full flaps.

So, If full flaps was better performance, and flaps up was smoother, why not use maneuver flaps and get the improved stall performance, and improved wing performance that maneuver flap extension allowed, without the ballooning, extra drag, and pitch trim changes that full flaps created?

In the very early 90s, perhaps even 1990, maneuver flap takeoffs became authorized. You would use the flaps up performance numbers (for weight, temp, CG, load, drag index, wind, field elevation, altimeter, etc.) because we didn't have numbers for maneuver flaps. I preferred maneuver flaps for takeoff personally - best of both worlds.

Only a slight trim change (once the gear was up, the CADC would retract the maneuver flaps below 8.5 AOA) but much better stall and high AOA performance if you hit a gust, or were doing a section (formation) takeoff. The wingman in a section takeoff was always making slight adjustments in pitch, bank, power and sometimes yaw to stay in position. Maneuver flaps gave the wingman a bit more margin over stall, a bit more authority to maneuver, than flaps up and avoided the big trim change on full flap retraction.
 
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Awesome. Thank you for the information. I've enjoyed reading all the posts and look forward to many more!
 
Originally Posted By: evvatc
Awesome. Thank you for the information. I've enjoyed reading all the posts and look forward to many more!


Glad to be of help. Good luck with your research, please feel free to PM or post any further questions.
 
What was the worst sea-state or deck pitch that you've had to take off and land in? Especially in those conditions, what was the rate of being a bolter (attempted vs successful landings)?
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
What was the worst sea-state or deck pitch that you've had to take off and land in? Especially in those conditions, what was the rate of being a bolter (attempted vs successful landings)?


In addition to flying the big fighter, I was an LSO. In fact, I was an LSO in the fleet, then in the RAG (where I was the head of the carrier landing phase of instruction...a phase that washed out more young Tomcat drivers than any other...the F-14 was a handful to bring aboard), and then as the senior LSO on the boat, known as CAG Paddles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Signal_Officer

So, I've seen pitching decks both from a pilot perspective and the LSO perspective. Worst I've seen was from the LSO perspective.

The LSO was absolutely critical in getting an airplane safely aboard in pitching deck conditions. The instrument guidance system (Automatic Carrier Landing System - ACLS) would guide the airplane to a commanded touchdown point on the deck. ACLS was stabilized in space, using the ship's own INS, so that the airplane received steady guidance regardless of ship's movement. Pretty interesting system, nothing like civilian approach guidance systems that are bolted to concrete and calibrated to solid, steady ground. ACLS used a radar to track the airplane. It was precise enough that every Navy airplane had a radar augmenter antenna, that allowed for the radar to get a precise lock. If the radar scintillated over the airframe, the guidance precision would be lost. Once the radar had a lock, data-link signals were sent to the airplane for guidance in reference to an ideal path in space. It was also precise enough that a random distribution of about +/- 8 inches was added (about +/- 10 feet fore/aft along the deck in the landing area) so that the F/A-18s wouldn't pound their hook points into the same spot every time, leading to excessive deck wear.

But ACLS, while guiding the airplane in space, couldn't measure the safety margin at the ramp. The back of the carrier moved up and down in high seas...and while the airplane was steady state, the ship moving up and down underneath that ideal path could create a situation of too little clearance (leading to a crash) or too much clearance (leading to a severe landing that would break airplanes).

On a Nimitz-class carrier, with a steady deck, that was trimmed level fore/aft and had no roll or roll trim, and when using the 3-wire as a target (this geometry gets complex as well...but most of the time, we used the 3-wire as a target for the optical landing system as well as the ACLS) the hook point clearance was 14.1 feet. 10 feet was the minimum for safety, which allowed for pilot error, and other factors.

So, once the deck started moving, the LSO had to take over from the automated systems. In particular, the OLS (Optical Landing System - or "Meatball", often called the "ball") could not compensate for rapid motion. The ball/OLS had tremendous adjust-ability in commanding a desired hook touchdown point; it compensated for aircraft type (since it was aimed at the pilot's eye, the difference in aircraft geometry had to be taken into account...in particular, the hook-eye distance was critical, as the lens was trying to target a specific hook touchdown point)

A brief note on glideslope geometry. There were four wires on Nimitz-class carriers. The new carriers will have three but that's another story, and the Nimitz class is representative of today's fleet. The first wire was about 175 feet from the ramp (back of the ship). Each subsequent wire was 40 feet farther. We generally used the 3-wire as the "target" and the ball/OLS was set to command a 235' touchdown point, half way between the 2 and the 3. That gave the pilot the best chance at catching a wire. Now, on a 3.5 glideslope (relative to the ship, the wind over the deck meant that the airplane was actually descending an about a 2.8 degree path through the air, but relative to the ship, it was 3.5 degrees), each foot of vertical deviation worked out to about 15 feet of horizontal deviation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arresting_gear

So, in order to catch the 3-wire (generally considered a good landing, though other factors were included in that assessment), the airplane's hook had to be +/- 15 INCHES from the commanded path. That translated to the +/- 20 feet that kept you touching down just after the 2 and just before the 3.

In order to catch ANY wire the airplane's hook had to be +/- 4 FEET from the ideal/commanded path. This is a big point: if you were more than 4 feet low, the LSO would "wave off" the airplane - remember that 10 foot minimum? - and the pilot would select full power, retract speedbrakes and go around for another try. If the airplane was 4 feet high, the hook would miss the last wire, and a "bolter" would result. The pilot would add full power, retract speedbrakes and have about 250-300 feet in which to get airborne again.

So, when the deck is moving up and down, and it's moving more than about 4 feet, we would rig what was known as MOVLAS (Manually Operated Visual Landing Aid System) in the place of the OLS/ball.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_landing_system

MOVLAS would allow the LSO to directly control what the pilot saw for visual glideslope. This allowed the LSO to help the pilot transition from a space-stabilized path to a path that corresponded with the deck movement to get them within the 4 feet required for a safe landing.

I've seen the deck move +/- 20 feet. Forty feet of total ramp motion. This presented a challenge in getting the airplane to a safe landing window. Clearly, when the deck went up 20 feet, the airplane, on its space-stabilized path, would be below the ramp (with an impending crash). When the deck went down, the airplane was so high that it was unable to make a safe landing from the space-stabilized path...the sink rate required would break landing gear completely off, or overstress the airplane structure.

This is where the art of "waving" as an LSO came in. When the pilot transitioned from instruments to visual, at 3/4 of a mile, the LSO would present a stabilized picture, referencing the horizon. Then the LSO would begin to move the airplane up or down from that reference to get the airplane closer to where the deck was going to be as the airplane crossed the ramp.

The trust in the LSO had to be complete, as the pilot couldn't feel the ramp motion, or know which was the ship was moving, like the LSO could. When the platform on which you're standing is moving up and down 40 feet every several seconds...you feel it!

Within about ten seconds from touchdown, you would start manipulating the MOVLAS to get the airplane "in sync" with the deck...most of the time you could make it work...but if the deck was going to be at the top of a cycle, or at the bottom of the cycle, the clearances/geometry was simply unsafe and you would "wave off" the airplane...being careful to say "wave off, wave off" to get the instant pilot response and then adding "pitching deck" so that the pilot knew it wasn't their error.

At night, with pitching deck, the LSOs needed a horizon reference. So, we would throw marine flares into the wake of the carrier...but in really big seas, they would get covered by waves, so the only thing that could provide a reference would be a ship...and we would use the lights from that ship to determine the horizon, and from that, the safe/stabilized approach path. I'll never forget one night (big rolling seas in the Atlantic, leading to +/-20 feet) when the Captain of the Carrier called down to my LSO platform and asked, "Hey Astro, the Leyte Gulf (a cruiser that was in formation 3 miles aft of the carrier) wants to prosecute a contact (sonar, a submarine), do you still need him?" To which I replied, "Sir, I absolutely need him to keep station, I can't see the flares and I can't see the horizon!" The CO laughed and said, "That's what I thought, I'll tell to stay put until his ears bleed!"

As a LT, I was determining what the CO of a cruiser, a Captain, could do with his billion dollar warship... But I did need him there, I couldn't have kept safe the dozen or so airplanes that were still to land.

A normal boarding rate: clear, calm seas, steady deck, was generally above 90%. With an all Hornet airwing, I suspect that number is up over 95%. Tomcats, as I mentioned, were a handful...

On a dark night, with pitching deck, we would be lucky to get a 50% boarding rate...you just couldn't get everyone in sync with the deck to a degree that would keep them safe. And once in a while, you would have a pilot that wasn't responding quickly enough to the MOVLAS. You would have to wave them off early, because you can't keep them safe if they're not responding instantly.

We would always have tankers airborne in case an airplane boltered and ran low on gas. In pitching deck conditions, we would put an extra tanker airborne, and often had a tanker on 5 minute alert (crew manned and ready, airplane near the catapult, ready to launch on 5 minutes notice).

Finally, it always seemed to be cold & raining whenever I was waving pitching deck...adding just a bit more challenge (and some misery) to an already challenging situation...

Cheers,
Astro

"There always came that exquisite moment of human judgment when one man - a man standing alone on the remotest corner of the ship, lashed by foul wind and storm - had to decide that the jet roaring down upon him could make it. This solitary man had to judge the speed and height and the pitching of the deck and the wallowing of the sea and the oddities of this particular pilot and those additional imponderables that no man can explain. Then, at the last screaming second he had to make his decision and flash it to the pilot. He had only two choices. He could land the plane and risk the life of the pilot and the plane and the ship if he had judged wrong. Or he could wave-off and delay his decision until next time around. But he could defer his job to no one. It was his, and if he did judge wrong, carnage on the carrier deck could be fearful.”

— James Michener, The Bridges at Toko-Ri (1953)
 
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Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
What was the worst sea-state or deck pitch that you've had to take off and land in? Especially in those conditions, what was the rate of being a bolter (attempted vs successful landings)?


In addition to flying the big fighter, I was an LSO. In fact, I was an LSO in the fleet, then in the RAG (where I was the head of the carrier landing phase of instruction...a phase that washed out more young Tomcat drivers than any other...the F-14 was a handful to bring aboard), and then as the senior LSO on the boat, known as CAG Paddles.


Finally, it always seemed to be cold & raining whenever I was waving pitching deck...adding just a bit more challenge (and some misery) to an already challenging situation...

Cheers,
Astro

Daaym Astro!

You write as good as you fly! When I finished reading that, I was holding my breath. Thank you...
 
Thanks.

I know the answer was long...but I felt that simply answering his question in feet, without the background information, didn't really convey a sense of what was happening, of what was involved. The context, in this case, is really important.

I'm just glad you took the time to read it all...

cheers3.gif
 
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