EU plans to ban cars from cities by 2050

[Duffman77]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
If something is more efficcient AND it creates jobs (OTR trucking), that sounds like a win-win to me. The last thing we need is to eliminate more jobs. I do have to say these trucks complete destroy city roads they travel on especially near stop ligts but on the way down the strip where trucks are veavily traveled.


I'm sorry but this has to be the least thought out post in this thread. Creating jobs that add no productivity to society is counter productive. Shipping costs are akin to a tax on everything as it makes all goods shipped more expensive. If you could charge a sales tax equivalent to the cost difference and pay all the lost workers to stay at home then it is certainly a stupid policy for job creation.

BTW, if trucks were more efficient than trains as you say, no one would ever use rail as it is slower.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Duffman77
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
If something is more efficcient AND it creates jobs (OTR trucking), that sounds like a win-win to me. The last thing we need is to eliminate more jobs. I do have to say these trucks complete destroy city roads they travel on especially near stop ligts but on the way down the strip where trucks are veavily traveled.


I'm sorry but this has to be the least thought out post in this thread. Creating jobs that add no productivity to society is counter productive. Shipping costs are akin to a tax on everything as it makes all goods shipped more expensive. If you could charge a sales tax equivalent to the cost difference and pay all the lost workers to stay at home then it is certainly a stupid policy for job creation.

BTW, if trucks were more efficient than trains as you say, no one would ever use rail as it is slower.


You need to reread the thread and my post maybe. If we take it as granted that OTR IS productive and as or more efficient plus it creates jobs, then why would you eliminate jobs for less efficiency? I'm not saying that OTR is more efficient for a fact, I was just going with Tempest's claim. You are changing the argument by stating rail is more efficient when time is considered. Losing jobs is an economic concern, maybe not to you, but it affects the economy.

 

[Duffman77]

I am not saying that there isn't a need for Trucking, there will always be a need for short haul, movement of quick movement goods like parcels, the mail and perishable food. When I speak of efficiency I am talking in terms of $/ton moved which hands down goes to rail not even including the externalities.

If it costs more to ship by truck than train, then it is a poor argument that we should ignore that fact just because it creates jobs.

The point of my post is jobs can be created in a number of manners from paying people to dig holes in the morning and fill them in the afternoon, we can pay people to stay at home and do nothing or more likely we can pay people to do productive things that we need. The measure of whether a job has value is did you accomplish something or add value with salary you expended?

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
That was my point America and its populace is not the same as Europe. The first cartoon is depicting the USA.


Yes, but the original article is about the EU, not the US.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
But fuel prices aren't there yet. How could the railroads possible provide as many jobs as OTR trucking? I don't know much about trains but I think it can replace 200-500 trucks. That is a lot of jobs that I don't see the train transport replacing.


If our entire nation's railways were expanded to accomidate all the shipping needs currently being accomplished by OTR trucking, that would mean hundreds of thousands of railway jobs.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Duffman77
If it costs more to ship by truck than train, then it is a poor argument that we should ignore that fact just because it creates jobs.


It absolutely does cost more to ship by truck than by train. It also wastes a lot more dino juice....

 

[Trav]

I lived in middle of one of Germanys larger cities all my life.
Sure there is mass transit like the U-Bahn,bus and Straßenbahn.
They are okay for hopping from one part of the city to the other but then if you need to get to your final destination in the suburbs,i can tell you its a bit more than a nuisance its a royal PITA.

Don't get me wrong mass transit is fine and i use it often but its certainly not the be all and end all.
It has just as many drawbacks as positives.

What i am really getting a little tired of is this comparing America to European countries.There is no comparison whatsoever,what works for them will not and can not work here.
The sheer size and structure of this country does not lend itself to these metropolitan utopia schemes.
Things that have worked in this country since its inception through modern times is all of a sudden coming under fire as inefficient,wasteful and a host of other things.

Fact is America when left alone to do what it does best with a minimum of regulation will out produce and have a better life style for its citizens then any other country on earth.
These facts are what drives the kook fringe into a frenzy.
If they like Europe and bicycles so much then for cripes sake go live there,its a free country,you can move.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I lived in middle of one of Germanys larger cities all my life.
Sure there is mass transit like the U-Bahn,bus and Straßenbahn.
They are okay for hopping from one part of the city to the other but then if you need to get to your final destination in the suburbs,i can tell you its a bit more than a nuisance its a royal PITA.

Don't get me wrong mass transit is fine and i use it often but its certainly not the be all and end all.
It has just as many drawbacks as positives.

What i am really getting a little tired of is this comparing America to European countries.There is no comparison whatsoever,what works for them will not and can not work here.
The sheer size and structure of this country does not lend itself to these metropolitan utopia schemes.
Things that have worked in this country since its inception through modern times is all of a sudden coming under fire as inefficient,wasteful and a host of other things.

Fact is America when left alone to do what it does best with a minimum of regulation will out produce and have a better life style for its citizens then any other country on earth.
These facts are what drives the kook fringe into a frenzy.
If they like Europe and bicycles so much then for cripes sake go live there,its a free country,you can move.


All true and very well said!!!

 

[123Saab]

Understood Trav, But I dont think this thread was about the burbs originally.

Here in the east, you can take a subway from your house in Brooklyn NYC and get to grand Central, then get to Downtown philly or DC without much hassle at all.

 

[maersk]

Of course you can outperform despite being less efficient or inefficient. You'll just consume a lot more for doing the same amount of work (torque converter automatic vs standard trans or automated standard - SMG, DSG, etc.)

Not really a problem if you're willing and able to...

appropriate the pertinent resources.

People and countries who can't really be strollin' all over the place appropriatin' resources must, by way of necessity, learn to do more with less.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I lived in middle of one of Germanys larger cities all my life.
Sure there is mass transit like the U-Bahn,bus and Straßenbahn.
They are okay for hopping from one part of the city to the other but then if you need to get to your final destination in the suburbs,i can tell you its a bit more than a nuisance its a royal PITA.

Don't get me wrong mass transit is fine and i use it often but its certainly not the be all and end all.
It has just as many drawbacks as positives.

What i am really getting a little tired of is this comparing America to European countries.There is no comparison whatsoever,what works for them will not and can not work here.
The sheer size and structure of this country does not lend itself to these metropolitan utopia schemes.
Things that have worked in this country since its inception through modern times is all of a sudden coming under fire as inefficient,wasteful and a host of other things.

Fact is America when left alone to do what it does best with a minimum of regulation will out produce and have a better life style for its citizens then any other country on earth.
These facts are what drives the kook fringe into a frenzy.
If they like Europe and bicycles so much then for cripes sake go live there,its a free country,you can move.

I'll try not to bash the USA, but I think some of your points are wrong.
The Boston-DC corridor has a very high population density, just like europe(and southern ontario), and population densities do determine what transportation systems make sense to use.
We north americans do use alot more energy per person than almost any other country, not many other places on earth have the number of single commuters in sub-20 mpg vehicles, or have the amount of space and energy inefficient suburban sprawl we do.

Individual cars will always have their place for smaller towns and folks like me out in the countryside, but designing access into and within large urban centres using the car doesn't make much sense...

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: 123Saab
Understood Trav, But I dont think this thread was about the burbs originally.

Here in the east, you can take a subway from your house in Brooklyn NYC and get to grand Central, then get to Downtown philly or DC without much hassle at all.

Yes but having lived within five or so miles of midtown Manhattan or Center City Philadelphia all my life, Ill say that without a car to get you to some of the mass transit access points, youre either paying a fortune for taxis, spending a substantial amount of time taking non-optimal bus routes, etc.

Having alwways lived within 15 miles of a major airport, I know that for going places I can spend about 15-20 minutes in my car, or literally hours on the bus to get to the airport. That REALLY effects the day.

Id commute by car far less if they actually had bicycle lanes. That is a farily good solution for some circumstances, as it allows one to come/go as they please and cover more ground in less time. In places where you are doing 25 MPH by car, the bike isnt that much slower (15ish).

Not saying that everyone driving in a sub-20 MPG vehicle is smart or correct just because people think "it is their right". The true ultra-sad financial status of the average citizen is an indicator that the reality is that most everyone cannot afford this though they try. Pollution or oil aside, people just cannot afford the lifecycle costs of things they are doing... But it doesnt mean that transportation flexibility isnt important.

 

[Autobahn88]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I lived in middle of one of Germanys larger cities all my life.
Sure there is mass transit like the U-Bahn,bus and Straßenbahn.
They are okay for hopping from one part of the city to the other but then if you need to get to your final destination in the suburbs,i can tell you its a bit more than a nuisance its a royal PITA.

Don't get me wrong mass transit is fine and i use it often but its certainly not the be all and end all.
It has just as many drawbacks as positives.

What i am really getting a little tired of is this comparing America to European countries.There is no comparison whatsoever,what works for them will not and can not work here.
The sheer size and structure of this country does not lend itself to these metropolitan utopia schemes.
Things that have worked in this country since its inception through modern times is all of a sudden coming under fire as inefficient,wasteful and a host of other things.

Fact is America when left alone to do what it does best with a minimum of regulation will out produce and have a better life style for its citizens then any other country on earth.
These facts are what drives the kook fringe into a frenzy.
If they like Europe and bicycles so much then for cripes sake go live there,its a free country,you can move.
\

I agree with everything that you have said. I have been to Europe many times and trying to compare North America to Europe is not realistic. But, we in North America are going to be in big trouble in the future if we do not change our views of entitlement and wastefulness. Face it, oil keeps going up and will,IMO, never be cheap again. We have to change our driving habits and what we drive to where we live and commute to work. It is the new reality and some just refuse to believe or change because of this sense of entitlement.

 

[Norm Olt]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Fact is America when left alone to do what it does best with a minimum of regulation will out produce and have a better life style for its citizens then any other country on earth.
These facts are what drives the kook fringe into a frenzy.
If they like Europe and bicycles so much then for cripes sake go live there,its a free country,you can move.


"kook fringe" I just love it! So well said, so true.

Google "bicycles & Portland, OR" and see how utterly ridiculous it can become.

I just call it The Tyranny of the Minority

Great post, Trav!

 

[KrisZ]

Quote:
Face it, oil keeps going up and will,IMO, never be cheap again.



Unless you have a crystal ball, nobody knows what's going to happen.

I'm sure during 70's oil crisis people were saying the same thing.

http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/oilprice1970.gif.


Don't get me wrong, I'm all for conservation and using what you need and it comes for everything not just oil. I don't throw stuff away just because I can buy it new for cheap from China Mart, I try to fix things and keep whatever I buy for a long time.

As someone already mentioned, our financial situation shows that we have much bigger problems on our hands than oil prices and throwing printed money at all those green projects in the name of conservation doesn't make sense to me.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Norm Olt
Originally Posted By: Trav
Fact is America when left alone to do what it does best with a minimum of regulation will out produce and have a better life style for its citizens then any other country on earth.
These facts are what drives the kook fringe into a frenzy.
If they like Europe and bicycles so much then for cripes sake go live there,its a free country,you can move.

"kook fringe" I just love it! So well said, so true.

Google "bicycles & Portland, OR" and see how utterly ridiculous it can become.

I just call it The Tyranny of the Minority

Great post, Trav!

The "kook fringe" contributes nearly 100 million dollars each year to the Portland economy. I'm sure there are a lot of other cities out there that would be glad to have that money.

I'm sorry you're so inconvenienced by bicycles...

Personally, I don't really need the sort of bicycle infrastructure which is available in Portland. I ride about 8K miles a year, so I'm comfortable riding in traffic. Frankly, I understand drivers just fine, it's other cyclists that scare me the most! But getting average people on bicycles for trips of less than 3 miles makes a lot of sense. You won't see me worrying about fuel dilution or sludge! If I start my car, it's oil is going to get up to full temperature. See the benefits!?!?

 

[kb01]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2

Yes but having lived within five or so miles of midtown Manhattan or Center City Philadelphia all my life, Ill say that without a car to get you to some of the mass transit access points, youre either paying a fortune for taxis, spending a substantial amount of time taking non-optimal bus routes, etc.


Where in Philly did you live?

When I lived in South Philly, a car was nothing but a nuisance and I only took a taxi a few times over the course of about 5 years. I don't think I ever had to walk more than 2 or 3 blocks to catch a bus, trolly, or subway. Finding adequate parking and dealing with traffic was much more work.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
That was my point America and its populace is not the same as Europe. The first cartoon is depicting the USA.

Yes, but the original article is about the EU, not the US.

The original article wasn't about US trucking vs trains either, but we have that discussion going too. Point is I wasn't responding directly to the article anyway, but to others' posts.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Autobahn88
Originally Posted By: Trav
I lived in middle of one of Germanys larger cities all my life.
Sure there is mass transit like the U-Bahn,bus and Straßenbahn.
They are okay for hopping from one part of the city to the other but then if you need to get to your final destination in the suburbs,i can tell you its a bit more than a nuisance its a royal PITA.

Don't get me wrong mass transit is fine and i use it often but its certainly not the be all and end all.
It has just as many drawbacks as positives.

What i am really getting a little tired of is this comparing America to European countries.There is no comparison whatsoever,what works for them will not and can not work here.
The sheer size and structure of this country does not lend itself to these metropolitan utopia schemes.
Things that have worked in this country since its inception through modern times is all of a sudden coming under fire as inefficient,wasteful and a host of other things.

Fact is America when left alone to do what it does best with a minimum of regulation will out produce and have a better life style for its citizens then any other country on earth.
These facts are what drives the kook fringe into a frenzy.
If they like Europe and bicycles so much then for cripes sake go live there,its a free country,you can move.
\

I agree with everything that you have said. I have been to Europe many times and trying to compare North America to Europe is not realistic. But, we in North America are going to be in big trouble in the future if we do not change our views of entitlement and wastefulness. Face it, oil keeps going up and will,IMO, never be cheap again. We have to change our driving habits and what we drive to where we live and commute to work. It is the new reality and some just refuse to believe or change because of this sense of entitlement.


I don't think it's as much about changing wastefulness and a sense of entitlement as it is about waking up and realizing we can't continue to rely on the same old energy sources from the same old places. Fossil fuels, and basically anything that comes out of the planet that we use for energy is in finite supply. Obviously, the amount of resources available vary from type to type, but the time will come, and it's inevitable, when the human race will have to develop alternative, renwable energy sources, or learn to live without energy. The time to develop theses sources is now. We can't keep kicking the can down the road hoping the price of fossil fuels will come back down because at some point, they aren't going to...

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: maersk
Of course you can outperform despite being less efficient or inefficient. You'll just consume a lot more for doing the same amount of work (torque converter automatic vs standard trans or automated standard - SMG, DSG, etc.)

Not really a problem if you're willing and able to...

appropriate the pertinent resources.

People and countries who can't really be strollin' all over the place appropriatin' resources must, by way of necessity, learn to do more with less.

In what way are we less efficient? Please provide your information source.

The irony is not lost on me that someone from Romania is pushing for central planning. I suggest looking to your country's history to see how well that worked out.

People always say that the US is using more resources than other places. And they are right. The one thing they never bother to look up is that we are also generating a large chunk of the world's wealth! So we are in fact, being very productive with the energy we use.