Ecore Experience
- Thread starter Red Bowtie
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Yes, pardon my lack of marking gauges as gauges and the pump, filter and engine.
The basic aspect that makes it hard to see is that when you view a normal series circuit, the resistance x the pressure equal your flow. In this situation you've got a vaiable flow at a fixed pressure through a fixed resistance. That variable flow MUST evidence itself in varied divisions of pressure over the circuit. Only when the relief is closed can this resemble a simple series circuit where the pressure is a product of current through resistance. Once in relief, the pressure is fixed and the a % of the flow is independant of resistance.
This doesn't mean that you cannot have differential across a filter as it loads. This is surely true. My recent revelations on the topic lead me to believe that this is not the major design feature of the bypass valve's function ..or rather its principle "target" remedy. For me it will always be when this "conflict" occurs when the pump is in relief. This has the highest potential for pressure differential.
For those who are still not clear on what I'm saying:
We know that the upside of the filter sees pump pressure, right?
Okay ..now just say that the pump has a relief that can flow 100% of the pump output (make it a 6' pipe if you need to and that it fully opens at .00001" of water column over the limit level). The relief pressure is @100psi +.00001" WC.
Now have the pump in 100% relief and you will have a 100psi differential across the filter with NO FLOW to the engine.
..which if you play with the numbers a bit ...appears to be exactly what happened to Red Bowtie's engine. Extremely high differential ..and virtually no flow.
[ June 15, 2006, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
After reading this thread for the past few days, I did cut open a new E-Core ST filter, and a Motorcraft couterpart that I had around. My unscientific testing showed that the E-Core cage was stronger than the metal center tube in the MC when applying pressure by hand. But when I put both on the floor and applied presure with my foot, the metal tube folded, and the E-Core did indeed shatter into about 12 pieces.
I have used ST filters for awhile, but I have pitched my stash and will only use Motorcraft for my Jeep and Mobil 1 EP filters for other 2 daily drivers. After reading this I am not sure that the filter set up the problem, but it seems it did not withstand a spike which others may have been able to tolerate with a metal tube. Champ is a good company but they get my money through Exxon-Mobil from now on instead of through Wally's.
I have used ST filters for awhile, but I have pitched my stash and will only use Motorcraft for my Jeep and Mobil 1 EP filters for other 2 daily drivers. After reading this I am not sure that the filter set up the problem, but it seems it did not withstand a spike which others may have been able to tolerate with a metal tube. Champ is a good company but they get my money through Exxon-Mobil from now on instead of through Wally's.
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jeepman. This would never have been an issue if a bypass was used. Now your filter choice is yours to make ..but you're looking at a situation that cannot occur in any normal ..or even extreme situation without something being altered in the mix.
You're suing the boiler manufacturer because some one else ran the same boiler at 300% of capacity and jammed the safety valves shut and it blew on them ..and then remarked that if they had done the same thing with another boiler it would have blown up in a more favorable manner. While this can surely be true, you're focusing on the aftermath of a situation that should never occur to either of them.
He died much better when you beat him silly with a lead pipe then the last guy. His bones didn't break as easy.
You're suing the boiler manufacturer because some one else ran the same boiler at 300% of capacity and jammed the safety valves shut and it blew on them ..and then remarked that if they had done the same thing with another boiler it would have blown up in a more favorable manner. While this can surely be true, you're focusing on the aftermath of a situation that should never occur to either of them.
He died much better when you beat him silly with a lead pipe then the last guy. His bones didn't break as easy.
Gary are you saying that there is a point where the more pressure you apply to the media the less flow you get out of it? The media is the weak link - apply too much pressure and it's going to rip / tear. How much time is going to elapse in an over pressurized filter before it first rips / tears the media and then crushes the center tube? In an instant would be my guess.
Differential pressure is what caused the center tube to collapse. Once that happens then all the oil entering can escape through the outlet. The media did not form a seal around the outlet. When Red Bowtie cuts open the filter this will become more evident.
Red Bowtie has been using low or non-detergent racing only oil in it from day 1. Even those of us who use conventional or even premium street motor oil on occasion can see a benefit to using a product called Auto-RX. Varnish, sludge, and other contaminants build up over time. If you were to open up your used oil filter every time you might not see much of anything. Go through an Auto-RX treatment and you can usually see visible evidence of contaminants you had no idea were in your engine. It's just my hunch that varnish or other contaminant could have caused the oil pump to go postal
Even though these Ecores are produced on an assembly line using computer quality controls no two are going to be exactly alike. Nor is any other filter - hand made or assembly line constructed.
Differential pressure is what caused the center tube to collapse. Once that happens then all the oil entering can escape through the outlet. The media did not form a seal around the outlet. When Red Bowtie cuts open the filter this will become more evident.
Red Bowtie has been using low or non-detergent racing only oil in it from day 1. Even those of us who use conventional or even premium street motor oil on occasion can see a benefit to using a product called Auto-RX. Varnish, sludge, and other contaminants build up over time. If you were to open up your used oil filter every time you might not see much of anything. Go through an Auto-RX treatment and you can usually see visible evidence of contaminants you had no idea were in your engine. It's just my hunch that varnish or other contaminant could have caused the oil pump to go postal
Even though these Ecores are produced on an assembly line using computer quality controls no two are going to be exactly alike. Nor is any other filter - hand made or assembly line constructed.
There are codes that dictate how certain devices will fail when subjected to a serious insult, I wouldn't be at all suprised to see boiler codes inclulding that that type of language.
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No. I'm saying that the flow through the media may be independent of the pressure applied to it.
Without a bypass valve? Sure is.
It may never collapse the center tube. Normally a very slight tear/separation would relief all stress and the owner and engine would live happily ever after and never know that this occured. In this situation the media probably held intact just long enough to be a sail in a tsunami.
Again, we must be seeing a tidal wave that treated the media like a sail. Even with the hole/rip/tear enough PSID was present to use that sheet as a crusher.
Well, aside from RB stating that it was a clean engine, just refreshed and whatnot..just how does this negate the lack of a bypass? The filter doesn't care if you have a high volume pump or not. It sees a max differential across it. At 8-10 psid ..who cares if the pump went postal? The distributor may mind, the pump shaft may mind ..but the media will care less about it ..so will the center tube. Your point??
This I'll agree to. I would imagine that just about anything made anywhere has a process variable to it. There are + and - spec's that everything falls into.
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Yes, that would be one item that would have a preferred failure design. In fact, recovery boilers have one wall thinner then the other three just to assure that the blast (they're recovering sodium) goes in one direction.
(I should have known not to use this example with you looking in, pal
The lack of a functional bypass on the block is certainly one part of the mystery here. I believe that FG has stated that even if it were working there are times when it's possible for a oil pump to produce more pressure / volume than any by-pass could react to quickly enough in order to prevent filter failure.
I don't run any of my engines witout a bypass and even if I did I wouldn't admit to it.
My point? In the area you are quoting back I was offering a theory as to why there was so much pressure in the engine to begin with.
Since I've actually had two filter failures, I'd like to comment on this topic:
When my non-Ecore Champ Labs filters saw excessive pressure (due to the clicker-type valves previously used), the media tore. One filter had a rip at the pleat, and the other had several pleats collapse into the center tube. This resulted in a hole in the media, providing a lower pressure flow of oil.
But Ecore filters don't have rigid metal endcaps. If the differential pressure increases across the media, the media & fiber end caps will tend to want to collapse into the cage, not tear the media. Conversely, rigid metal endcaps on non-ecore filters will result in the tearing of the media.
Here's another potential contributing factor that I remember from a Fluid Dynamics course back in college: Fluid flow increases in linear proportion to pressure as long as the flow is laminar. Once the flow becomes turbulent, the pressure increases dramatically. So if you use a high-flow pump with a viscous fluid through a restricted orifice, you likely got a turbulent flow. That would create a huge pressure spike, resulting in a collapsed filter. You may not have seen this with a metal center tube because the increased pressure would tear the pleats, which would reduce the turbulent flow tendancy and lower the pressure.
When my non-Ecore Champ Labs filters saw excessive pressure (due to the clicker-type valves previously used), the media tore. One filter had a rip at the pleat, and the other had several pleats collapse into the center tube. This resulted in a hole in the media, providing a lower pressure flow of oil.
But Ecore filters don't have rigid metal endcaps. If the differential pressure increases across the media, the media & fiber end caps will tend to want to collapse into the cage, not tear the media. Conversely, rigid metal endcaps on non-ecore filters will result in the tearing of the media.
Here's another potential contributing factor that I remember from a Fluid Dynamics course back in college: Fluid flow increases in linear proportion to pressure as long as the flow is laminar. Once the flow becomes turbulent, the pressure increases dramatically. So if you use a high-flow pump with a viscous fluid through a restricted orifice, you likely got a turbulent flow. That would create a huge pressure spike, resulting in a collapsed filter. You may not have seen this with a metal center tube because the increased pressure would tear the pleats, which would reduce the turbulent flow tendancy and lower the pressure.
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Oh ..sorry ..I thought we were arguing. My mistake
No matter what we plug in here ..there are a few radical events that occurred.
You may be on to something there. Lots of good stuff coming out of this thread.
[ June 15, 2006, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
This is exactly what I was getting at way earlier in this thread. Ecores will tend to fail differently than traditional metal center tube filters. With a metal tube you may wind up with media migrating into the center inlet area. With the Ecore design it's virtually guaranteed.
Filter guy: you may have missed the part about the bypass being intentionally blocked.
Red Bowtie: Here is the main problem with blocked bypass argument, bare with me here.
You can have it one way or the other:
Does the oil filter restrict flow enough to open the bypass significantly or not?
If it doesn't then bypassing it is pointless as dirt will not be able to bypass.
If it does then you are starving your engine of oil pressure and could potentially damage your filter.(and engine)
If you're really worried run the "high flow" filter with the bypass and be assured that it won't be bypassed.
P.S. If you really want to listen to old school "knowledge" with no logic behind it, I'd look elsewhere.
Red Bowtie: Here is the main problem with blocked bypass argument, bare with me here.
You can have it one way or the other:
Does the oil filter restrict flow enough to open the bypass significantly or not?
If it doesn't then bypassing it is pointless as dirt will not be able to bypass.
If it does then you are starving your engine of oil pressure and could potentially damage your filter.(and engine)
If you're really worried run the "high flow" filter with the bypass and be assured that it won't be bypassed.
P.S. If you really want to listen to old school "knowledge" with no logic behind it, I'd look elsewhere.
Let me add a bit more...
Both Champ and AC Delco ( along with Wix, Purolator, Fram, etc) will have collapsed E-core designed filters in their lab.
They can block the by-pass, if it has one, to do this quicker.
Should the core collapse, the media goes with it. As others have mentioned, oil will take the least resistance to flow.
Once a breach has happened..the oil gets through.
Now the claim here is that the E-core "plugged" the outlet hole, and this is what starved the engine of oil.
As I have read this thread from the beginning, Red Bowtie..didn't you try to pull the media out of the center tube and couldn't? Can't we all see the pleats are intact--as much as we can--from the picture? The pleats aren't blackend to the point of showing a "plugged" situation. In fact, they look "new".
But yet..pressure of some sort caused the collapse..oil didn't stop at the center tube and not flow because the collapse makes the breach.
Now had the media "stopped" the flow of oil in some way to the point of starvation of the motor--where would the excess pressure go? I'll tell you. It stays in the filter and would have deformed the can, which blows the lockseam or the sealing gasket and the filter leaks like a sieve. It only takes seconds to do this.( Also easily done in the lab, as i've had this done for tours in days past. Just block the outlet.)
The filter can was intact, so the pressure was not stopped by the media and the can deformed.
Hence my "feeling" there was a pressure spike. Not some "quick" build up of pressure from a WOT.
"Cold" thick oil can have that effect. It can rip the media, still a breach in it's own right. It can collapse the center tube.
But Red Bowtie has "warmed" up his engine to a certain degree. Therefore the oil shouldn't have been "thick". His other AC filters handled it and this AC E-core could handle it as well.
Red Bowtie, I don't think things were normal as before. You may have done the exact same thing as you had numerous times. But there is still the very distinct possibility the oil pump regulating valve got stuck closed with some form of contaminant and this is what caused the pressure spike.
I wish you luck for the future.
As this thread is educational in nature there is definately food for thought for all.
Both Champ and AC Delco ( along with Wix, Purolator, Fram, etc) will have collapsed E-core designed filters in their lab.
They can block the by-pass, if it has one, to do this quicker.
Should the core collapse, the media goes with it. As others have mentioned, oil will take the least resistance to flow.
Once a breach has happened..the oil gets through.
Now the claim here is that the E-core "plugged" the outlet hole, and this is what starved the engine of oil.
As I have read this thread from the beginning, Red Bowtie..didn't you try to pull the media out of the center tube and couldn't? Can't we all see the pleats are intact--as much as we can--from the picture? The pleats aren't blackend to the point of showing a "plugged" situation. In fact, they look "new".
But yet..pressure of some sort caused the collapse..oil didn't stop at the center tube and not flow because the collapse makes the breach.
Now had the media "stopped" the flow of oil in some way to the point of starvation of the motor--where would the excess pressure go? I'll tell you. It stays in the filter and would have deformed the can, which blows the lockseam or the sealing gasket and the filter leaks like a sieve. It only takes seconds to do this.( Also easily done in the lab, as i've had this done for tours in days past. Just block the outlet.)
The filter can was intact, so the pressure was not stopped by the media and the can deformed.
Hence my "feeling" there was a pressure spike. Not some "quick" build up of pressure from a WOT.
"Cold" thick oil can have that effect. It can rip the media, still a breach in it's own right. It can collapse the center tube.
But Red Bowtie has "warmed" up his engine to a certain degree. Therefore the oil shouldn't have been "thick". His other AC filters handled it and this AC E-core could handle it as well.
Red Bowtie, I don't think things were normal as before. You may have done the exact same thing as you had numerous times. But there is still the very distinct possibility the oil pump regulating valve got stuck closed with some form of contaminant and this is what caused the pressure spike.
I wish you luck for the future.
As this thread is educational in nature there is definately food for thought for all.
Excellent Thread!
It looks like a lively adult discussion without hurt feelings getting in the way.
I would like to add something about the oil pump pressure relieve valve getting stuck and blowing off filters. I have seen several of them. The more recent ones were Fords where the factory stated that the root cause was bore wear in the relief valve.
The earlier ones, from about 30 years ago, were from sludge or varnish. The first time it happened to me as a technician was on a Corvair. I was green enough not to know better and just installed another filter thinking I must have had a bad filter. The car drove in OK and the 1st new filter blew up when the engine was started. The 2nd one did the same. On teardown, the engine was sludgy throughout, and the relief valve was jammed, requiring a pretty good nudge with a hammer and screwdriver to get it free.
After that, I had a few others as well. The most memorable was a '71 Torino 429 with a manual trans that was towed in with no oil pressure. Guess which way it's pressure relief valve was stuck. It was also varnished up pretty good. The guy working next to me wanted to just clean up the pump and put it back together instead of waiting to order a pump.
The point being, it can be a wear problem, not just a sludge/varnish problem.
Personally, I feel that most likely the problem that started this thread was mostly heavy oil, no by-pass, and the oil not warm enough yet. That's all that it would take. The posibility of the pressure relief valve being involved is also likely, but it doesn't need to be.
It looks like a lively adult discussion without hurt feelings getting in the way.
I would like to add something about the oil pump pressure relieve valve getting stuck and blowing off filters. I have seen several of them. The more recent ones were Fords where the factory stated that the root cause was bore wear in the relief valve.
The earlier ones, from about 30 years ago, were from sludge or varnish. The first time it happened to me as a technician was on a Corvair. I was green enough not to know better and just installed another filter thinking I must have had a bad filter. The car drove in OK and the 1st new filter blew up when the engine was started. The 2nd one did the same. On teardown, the engine was sludgy throughout, and the relief valve was jammed, requiring a pretty good nudge with a hammer and screwdriver to get it free.
After that, I had a few others as well. The most memorable was a '71 Torino 429 with a manual trans that was towed in with no oil pressure. Guess which way it's pressure relief valve was stuck. It was also varnished up pretty good. The guy working next to me wanted to just clean up the pump and put it back together instead of waiting to order a pump.
The point being, it can be a wear problem, not just a sludge/varnish problem.
Personally, I feel that most likely the problem that started this thread was mostly heavy oil, no by-pass, and the oil not warm enough yet. That's all that it would take. The posibility of the pressure relief valve being involved is also likely, but it doesn't need to be.
Turbo, according to Filterguy the filter is only spced to withstand a 70 psi differential pressure.
If the car had a high volume pump and the engine got reved high while cold with the 20W-50 in it, maybe the diffrenetial pressure in the filter exceeded 70 psi. That's within the pressure capability of a properly functioning pump. The lack of a functioning oil filter bypass valve is most likely what did the engine in.
The could have been other contributing cause, but with a functioning bypass, the filter never would have seen the delta p that it did.
If the car had a high volume pump and the engine got reved high while cold with the 20W-50 in it, maybe the diffrenetial pressure in the filter exceeded 70 psi. That's within the pressure capability of a properly functioning pump. The lack of a functioning oil filter bypass valve is most likely what did the engine in.
The could have been other contributing cause, but with a functioning bypass, the filter never would have seen the delta p that it did.
Something else that has been touched on that I wanted to add to. More and more plastics and composits are replacing metal in many applications. Even though some are stronger in certain ways, they are not stronger in every way.
It may very well be that this problem happened with an ecore before it would have happened with an old style filter with a metal core because of some not yet understood character of the sudden pressure rise. Perhaps more validation is needed to know for certain just how an ecore would fail under such extreme conditions. This would seem to be an extremely thin thread to support your continued claim though.
My overall impression though is that this same event would have still damaged any other filter as well. Perhaps the thicker can on a racing filter would have just balloned instead of splitting though.
Don't kid yourself. Racing filters can fail when the pressure relief valve sticks too.
It may very well be that this problem happened with an ecore before it would have happened with an old style filter with a metal core because of some not yet understood character of the sudden pressure rise. Perhaps more validation is needed to know for certain just how an ecore would fail under such extreme conditions. This would seem to be an extremely thin thread to support your continued claim though.
My overall impression though is that this same event would have still damaged any other filter as well. Perhaps the thicker can on a racing filter would have just balloned instead of splitting though.
Don't kid yourself. Racing filters can fail when the pressure relief valve sticks too.
We agree with XS650. Had the bypass been functional, none of this would have ever happened.
Until we took the motor apart this time, we never paid too much attention to the bypass. I'll be honest and admit that it's probably one aspect of the motor where we were a little under-educated. We didn't know if it worked or not. We hadn't had a problem before and hadn't gotten interested in it.
To get more information on the subject, we emailed GM Performance earlier in the week and asked them specific questions about the 572 they show in their video clip. The one where they have a 572 in the dyno room and one bolted into a digger making an 8.00 sec ET pass.
We asked them two questions.
1. What's the oil and oil filter they're using?
2. Is the oil filter bypass blocked in either the dyno motor or the digger?
That was Monday. We haven't heard back from them yet. Their email acknowledgement says normal response time is 2 days. They must be busy.
Until we took the motor apart this time, we never paid too much attention to the bypass. I'll be honest and admit that it's probably one aspect of the motor where we were a little under-educated. We didn't know if it worked or not. We hadn't had a problem before and hadn't gotten interested in it.
To get more information on the subject, we emailed GM Performance earlier in the week and asked them specific questions about the 572 they show in their video clip. The one where they have a 572 in the dyno room and one bolted into a digger making an 8.00 sec ET pass.
We asked them two questions.
1. What's the oil and oil filter they're using?
2. Is the oil filter bypass blocked in either the dyno motor or the digger?
That was Monday. We haven't heard back from them yet. Their email acknowledgement says normal response time is 2 days. They must be busy.
At what point did the filter reduce the oil flow so that the bearings overheated?
He started the motor, let it warm up and went for a drive where he went WOT a time or two.
Oil would have been flowing through the filter, no?
The pump would have ramped up the pressure due to acceleration, no?
How long, time frame wise, in your estimation would it take for "reduction" of flow to happen to have the bearings overheat? Keeping in mind there was oil flow before he went WOT..
How long, time frame wise, would it take for the excess pressure to build before the collapse of the element in your estimation?
How much oil would get through the media as the oil pump sends more and more oil to the filter before a collapse?
Just a couple points I need to get my head around to understand your pov..
He started the motor, let it warm up and went for a drive where he went WOT a time or two.
Oil would have been flowing through the filter, no?
The pump would have ramped up the pressure due to acceleration, no?
How long, time frame wise, in your estimation would it take for "reduction" of flow to happen to have the bearings overheat? Keeping in mind there was oil flow before he went WOT..
How long, time frame wise, would it take for the excess pressure to build before the collapse of the element in your estimation?
How much oil would get through the media as the oil pump sends more and more oil to the filter before a collapse?
Just a couple points I need to get my head around to understand your pov..
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