EBC Green vs HAWK HPS

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Originally Posted By: unDummy
Don't waste your money on slotted or drilled rotors. Stock sized rotors should be solid blanks.

You can mildly adjust brake bias with pad selection. Since most vehicles are overly biased toward the rear triggering ABS or rear lock up, use the Mintex red box or store brand generics, as your rear pads.


Agreed on both points above, except that I would say stick with solid blank rotors even if you upgrade to a high performance braking system! Slots and holes/dimples/etc., just give stress risers a breeding ground to do their thing, especially under high heat, repeated braking.

Yes, I know that many road racing machines use these type rotors, but they change them multiple times during an endurance race, AND they use MUCH better materials/metallurgy/cutting techniques than are available to the general public.
If I ever did upgrade to a larger, racing type braking system (AP, Brembo, Wilwood, etc.), I would demand that they supply me with SOLID rotor rings to bolt onto the alloy hats.
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I also used the above brake biasing method in the past by using Hawk HP+es on the front, and either HPSes, or PBRs on the rear brakes.
(Note; the HP+es will make more noise, and dust more than the HPSes will, as well as needing at least some semblance of heat in them in order to stop properly, but still nowhere near as much as Hawk's unstreetable pure racing pads.)
 
Yet MB was putting hole rotors on all their cars for the last few years. Not just higher end models. May be a gimmick, but they were still going through that expense...

But I agree 100%
 
You have to look at the weight of the rotor, the diameter of the rotor, the swept brake surface area, and the weight of the vehicle. MB is a top of the line manufacturer. They don't need to cut costs with mentioned measurements. When you have underweight, overly thin, or undersized rotors when compare to the weight or HP of your vehicle like many US domestics and Asian imports, you do not want to punch holes or slots in those rotors. All you're doing is reducing rotor mass and pad surface area. It won't help you.

When a rotor comes slotted or drilled from the automaker, you can bet that it is heavier, thicker, and has a larger diameter to make up for ANY holes or slots that they add.
 
My first performance pad was Hawk HPS. They were about the same as stock on my Integra GSR, but with more dust. My next pad was Hawk HP+ on my S2000. They were a good budget pad for AutoX, but they made a lot of noise and the dust ruined the finish on my wheels. I am repainting them this weekend and I needed to use sand paper to remove the cemented brake dust. ScotchBrite was not enough. Keep in mind. I never went more than 3 weeks without cleaning my wheels, usually 1 week.

The first pad I was impressed with was Carbotech XP8. They take about 10 continuous minutes to fade on a 60mph track. The dust is less corrosive than Hawk, but they dust a lot. Pad life is very low as a hybrid street/track pad. They eat $50 rotors to the point that they need to be replaced every time the pads are changed. No experience with high end rotors, though.

Ultimately, my only solution is to upgrade to Accord V6 brakes and run less aggresive Carbotech AX6. Bigger brakes mean less aggressive pad needed for same bite, longer pad life, longer rotor life, better modulation.
 
Originally Posted By: flyingtoaster
.....Bigger brakes mean less aggressive pad needed for same bite, longer pad life, longer rotor life, better modulation.


Ultimately i would like to upgrade my whole brake system with a Porsche big brake system front and rear. Currently my puny car only puts out 120HP [according to wiki but it doesn't feel like it]. So its an inappropriate application.

Next year later this year ill most likely be doing a 16valve bigbore conversion with a 20psi turbo shooting that HP up to 350-400. That would be a more appropriate application for those brakes.

I just want to keep my family safe in an emergency situation. Which can be often since WA drivers are absolutely awful.

Would you say these upgraded pads are really worth the extra $30-$40 over the best OEM at any local autoparts store?
 
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Originally Posted By: Kaie
Originally Posted By: flyingtoaster
.....Bigger brakes mean less aggressive pad needed for same bite, longer pad life, longer rotor life, better modulation.


Ultimately i would like to upgrade my whole brake system with a Porsche big brake system front and rear. Currently my puny car only puts out 120HP [according to wiki but it doesn't feel like it]. So its an inappropriate application.

Next year later this year ill most likely be doing a 16valve bigbore conversion with a 20psi turbo shooting that HP up to 350-400. That would be a more appropriate application for those brakes.

I just want to keep my family safe in an emergency situation. Which can be often since WA drivers are absolutely awful.

Would you say these upgraded pads are really worth the extra $30-$40 over the best OEM at any local autoparts store?

I have never used them, but I hear that Duralast Gold CMAX are excellent for daily use and they have pretty much everything you want out of a non track pad. Some S2000 drivers even use them with the Accord V6 brake upgrade I mentioned on the track. I wouldn't recommend Hawk anything for daily driving, though I haven't experienced their entire lineup. Carbotech has a pad for everything and the dust is non corrosive, but they are very expensive.
 
By the way, if you are worried about protecting your family, make sure you have good tires. Any brake pad has enough stopping power to lock up your tires and activate ABS. The grippier the tire, the shorter the stopping distance. Anything with a treadwear rating of 400 is probably not the safest. Conversely, tires in the 140-200 category have longer stopping distance in the cold than an all season Michelin Pilots in the 220-300 range.
 
Originally Posted By: flyingtoaster
and run less aggresive Carbotech AX6.


Are these the pads which replaced the venerable Panthers?

Are their cf, and cold stopping characteristics similar to the HP+es??

I am thinking about trying Carbotechs at my next pad/rotor change.
 
I've run Hawk HPS pads on my last 3 daily drivers, including the current '07 Jetta. They're a dramatic improvement over stock, and I've never noticed any "inadequacy" when cold. They grab great when cold and get better hot. Noise is slightly more noticeable than stock but I've never found it to be intrusive. As for the dust, I've never had any sort of corrosive issues. All 3 vehicles had aluminum alloy wheels, and I just keep a nice coat of wax on them- brake dust hoses right off. To be fair, I'm not doing any autocross events, just Southen California stop-and-go with the occasional panic slam. I had read mixed reviews about the Green Stuff pads but very little negative about HPS, and that's how I made my original decision. In my experience, a well flushed and greased brake system with premium street pads and high-quality, solid rotors gives you nearly the best braking performance possible and still provides daily drivability and longevity. Good luck!
 
http://www.ctbrakes.com/brake-compounds.asp
http://www.ebcbrakes.com/selector.shtml
http://www.hawkperformance.com/products.php
http://www.axxisbrakes.com/
http://www.performancefriction.com/aftermarket/aftermarket-brake-pads.aspx

I can't find fault with EBC or Hawk, since I tend to critique those that complain about any brand. Most that complain about pads picked the wrong 'combo'.

Green, HPS, Bobcat, CarbonMetallic, XPG, ULT... are your choices. None will fail you.

Just ordered another set of EBC. '08 Highlander is getting some Yellows for the front. I'm also approaching brake job on the '08 Kia. The only worse thing about several choices with one vehicle is not having any choices on another.
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: flyingtoaster
and run less aggresive Carbotech AX6.


Are these the pads which replaced the venerable Panthers?

Are their cf, and cold stopping characteristics similar to the HP+es??

I am thinking about trying Carbotechs at my next pad/rotor change.


Panther plus is XP8
Bobcat is AX6

After running each, my HP+ pads were somewhat glazed and my XP8 pad surfaces looked like new. I am going with AX6 because I think they will perform like HP+ or better and take more abuse. They are ceramic and are supposed tob have non corrosive brake dust, where as HPS and HP+ are metallic. I am not sure about the specifications of each pad though.
 
Originally Posted By: flyingtoaster
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: flyingtoaster
and run less aggresive Carbotech AX6.


Are these the pads which replaced the venerable Panthers?

Are their cf, and cold stopping characteristics similar to the HP+es??

I am thinking about trying Carbotechs at my next pad/rotor change.


Panther plus is XP8
Bobcat is AX6

After running each, my HP+ pads were somewhat glazed and my XP8 pad surfaces looked like new. I am going with AX6 because I think they will perform like HP+ or better and take more abuse. They are ceramic and are supposed tob have non corrosive brake dust, where as HPS and HP+ are metallic. I am not sure about the specifications of each pad though.


Gotcha, THANKS!
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After unDummy (above) posted Bobcats as a great choice for the o.p., I realised that they must be the AX6es, and the Panthers (and Panther plusses) must be the more agressive XP8s.cf.
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Originally Posted By: dparm
Ferodo DS2500. You'll thank me later.

(running them F/R with DBA 4000 rotors)


Hmmm.... Their named scheme and gimmick words are the same as These rear pads i bought from ORielly's a few months ago.

ThermoQuite. Infact i think it did say Manufactured By Federal on the box. Ill have to find them.


PS: where did you get yours?
 
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http://www.zeckhausen.com/

The owner, Dave, talked to me and was very helpful.

Ferodo is made by Federal-Mogul (parent company of Wagner), yes. The DS2500 is their high-performance street/light track pad.

It tends to be a bit noisy but offers good linear pedal feel and has predictable fade. It does dust a lot but I consider that the price of good stopping power.

Combined with the slotted DBA 4000 rotors and Motul RBF660 fluid, the car stops like a champ on the road and on the track.
 
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I personally stay away from metallic pads like Ferodo, Hawk, and EBC because of my experience with Hawks eating away the clear coat on my wheels. On my Integra, I switched to Hawk HPS, the least aggresive metallic, and by the time I had worn through the pads, brake dust had eaten through the clear coat into the aluminum on my wheels. I switched from OEM to Hawk HP+ on my S2000. By the time that set of pads was worn through, again, my wheels needed to be refinished. I sanded down to the aluminum and repainted them. Metallic pads no longer make sense for my application because I care about the appearance of my wheels, but if I had a beater track Miata, I would run them because they are cheap. If you are not tracking your car, get Akebonos or the best ceramics or organics from NAPA or Autozone. If you autocross, get AX6 or XP8. If you Autocross on a budget and don't care about your wheels, get Hawk HP+ or Hawk Blue. I have never personally run Ferodo or EBC, but they are metallic.
 
I care about the appearance of my wheels. If you have dust buildup, it can be wiped off dry. And, around here, we have car washes. A weekly pass through the wash keeps all my rims spotless. They can also be waxed. I think that 'dust complaint' of brakes borders on foolishness.
 
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