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Diesel Oil in a Gasoline Passenger Car ?
- Thread starter Merkava_4
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i run 15w40 in my 96 jeep 4.0 love it especially in these 100 degree days that we encounter for 3 months straight
Garak, people shouldn't be giving their cats motor oil at all, whether it be HDEO or PCMO. I have a notion it would kill them.
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
What's the difference in say,Castrol GTX 10W40 and Castrol Tection 15W40? How different is the base oil and add pack?
That depends. Does 10w-40 GTX still use a sodium additive package? I suspect Tection would use a calcium or magnesium additive package. The Castrol data sheets aren't terribly good, as we already know. I'd have to look at a Tection bottle to see what ACEA specifications it claims.
Originally Posted By: SR5
What if HDEO was a little more expensive? Would it be worth the premium price ?
I suppose that depends. Right now, for me, Delvac 1 ESP from the distributor is in the same price range as a conventional at regular retail prices, let alone a synthetic. Our Walmarts aren't like the American ones, where they like to offer good pricing each day. I really don't have a lot of problems with using PCMOs, and even PCMOs of just about any brand. I do have a problem with paying atrociously high prices or chasing sales. The distributors seem to have the best pricing on HDEO.
Red91: And we all know how well cats like to be bathed, so getting HDEO on them is probably a poor idea.
What's the difference in say,Castrol GTX 10W40 and Castrol Tection 15W40? How different is the base oil and add pack?
That depends. Does 10w-40 GTX still use a sodium additive package? I suspect Tection would use a calcium or magnesium additive package. The Castrol data sheets aren't terribly good, as we already know. I'd have to look at a Tection bottle to see what ACEA specifications it claims.
Originally Posted By: SR5
What if HDEO was a little more expensive? Would it be worth the premium price ?
I suppose that depends. Right now, for me, Delvac 1 ESP from the distributor is in the same price range as a conventional at regular retail prices, let alone a synthetic. Our Walmarts aren't like the American ones, where they like to offer good pricing each day. I really don't have a lot of problems with using PCMOs, and even PCMOs of just about any brand. I do have a problem with paying atrociously high prices or chasing sales. The distributors seem to have the best pricing on HDEO.
Red91: And we all know how well cats like to be bathed, so getting HDEO on them is probably a poor idea.
15W-40 Service Pro oil year round in my 2002 4x4 4.0L Sohc Ranger. (yeah thats the Engine with the very Cronic timing chain and guide problems, death rattle,etc) I have never put a wrench on this engine until i changed spark plugs for the first time at 161,000 miles few weeks ago.Truck bought new. @ 170,000 now. purrs like a kitten.
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Locally at Walmart HDEO's and PCMO's are nearly the same price.
Our Walmart and CT regular prices are just so out of line, we essentially have to ignore them. CT sells Delvac 1 on the shelf. I get it cheaper from Imperial Oil at regular price than Canadian Tire's best sale price. So, that tells you something about their markups. Walmart sells M1 TDT 5w-40 for about double the price that I pay for Delvac 1.
Locally at Walmart HDEO's and PCMO's are nearly the same price.
Our Walmart and CT regular prices are just so out of line, we essentially have to ignore them. CT sells Delvac 1 on the shelf. I get it cheaper from Imperial Oil at regular price than Canadian Tire's best sale price. So, that tells you something about their markups. Walmart sells M1 TDT 5w-40 for about double the price that I pay for Delvac 1.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Is this question REALLY coming from a person with 11500 POSTS on this board??!!
It's something I've been thinking about lately. One dude even told me that ILSAC rated oils are for girly men.
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Is this question REALLY coming from a person with 11500 POSTS on this board??!!
It's something I've been thinking about lately. One dude even told me that ILSAC rated oils are for girly men.
This earlier thread about HDEO as PCMO is worth visiting.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3663886/1
A very interesting post from Doug Hillary.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3663886/1
A very interesting post from Doug Hillary.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Any advantage to that ? I notice alotta guys on here running diesel oil in their passenger cars. One dude is even running Mobil Delvac in his Infinity. I can understand the need for added zinc and phosphorous in older cars with flat bottom lifters, but there's guys on here running it with their roller lifters too. There's gotta be something I'm missing. Clue me in.
You make some great points Merkava_4, because of those higher zinc and phosphorous levels that you mention, diesel engine oils are not recommended to be used in today’s newer gasoline engines. The top tier diesel engine oils of today are rated as an API CJ-4/API SM motor oil but most newer passenger car vehicles are calling for the newer API SN/ILSAC GF-5 category which has lower levels of the zinc and phosphorous than the API SM diesel engine oils do.
So, why is the extra amount of zinc and phosphorous a problem with today’s engines? It’s possible that a small amount of oil may end up in the combustion chamber (or volatilize) as the engine runs. The same anti-wear additive that protects the engine may burn and turn into ash. As the ash is blown down the exhaust, it can stick to the oxygen sensor and/or settle in the catalytic converter which could render them less effective over time. Of course, this is not a catastrophic failure event, but engine manufactures don’t like it. They try as best they can to reduce this kind of thing because, after all, they now warranty vehicle parts for tens of thousands of miles/several years. – The Pennzoil Team
Any advantage to that ? I notice alotta guys on here running diesel oil in their passenger cars. One dude is even running Mobil Delvac in his Infinity. I can understand the need for added zinc and phosphorous in older cars with flat bottom lifters, but there's guys on here running it with their roller lifters too. There's gotta be something I'm missing. Clue me in.
You make some great points Merkava_4, because of those higher zinc and phosphorous levels that you mention, diesel engine oils are not recommended to be used in today’s newer gasoline engines. The top tier diesel engine oils of today are rated as an API CJ-4/API SM motor oil but most newer passenger car vehicles are calling for the newer API SN/ILSAC GF-5 category which has lower levels of the zinc and phosphorous than the API SM diesel engine oils do.
So, why is the extra amount of zinc and phosphorous a problem with today’s engines? It’s possible that a small amount of oil may end up in the combustion chamber (or volatilize) as the engine runs. The same anti-wear additive that protects the engine may burn and turn into ash. As the ash is blown down the exhaust, it can stick to the oxygen sensor and/or settle in the catalytic converter which could render them less effective over time. Of course, this is not a catastrophic failure event, but engine manufactures don’t like it. They try as best they can to reduce this kind of thing because, after all, they now warranty vehicle parts for tens of thousands of miles/several years. – The Pennzoil Team
Oils for diesels will work in gasoline engines and oils for gasoline engines will work in diesels. Putting one into the other is not going to cause the engines to explode.
With this being said are they good, long term solution for adequate lubrication, no. The people that designed these engines probably know what is best.
With this being said are they good, long term solution for adequate lubrication, no. The people that designed these engines probably know what is best.
Originally Posted By: stchman
Oils for diesels will work in gasoline engines and oils for gasoline engines will work in diesels. Putting one into the other is not going to cause the engines to explode.
With this being said are they good, long term solution for adequate lubrication, no. The people that designed these engines probably know what is best.
Their "best" is the best overall compromise for their competing requirements.
* Wear
* economy (ILSAC are economy)
* service intervals
* "normal" oil consumption being 1qt/1,000 miles (ILSAC P levels are designed to protect emissions equipment with this "normal" consumption.
It's the "best" point that marries these competing issues for a mass produced car, sold to the masses, most of whom won't open the service booklet anyway.
The P limits don't apply to non ILSAC grades, and 40s are certainly non ILSAC....and I doubt that 1qt/1,000 miles would be the outcome of running a dual rated oil, unless the vehicle was already half dead.
And as bbhero suggests, there are oils the meet SN, and are dual rated...they aren't ILSAC GF-5, but they aren't intended to be....and they are extremely unlikely to mess up your emissions equipment.
It will put you in a compleltely different operating envelope than
Oils for diesels will work in gasoline engines and oils for gasoline engines will work in diesels. Putting one into the other is not going to cause the engines to explode.
With this being said are they good, long term solution for adequate lubrication, no. The people that designed these engines probably know what is best.
Their "best" is the best overall compromise for their competing requirements.
* Wear
* economy (ILSAC are economy)
* service intervals
* "normal" oil consumption being 1qt/1,000 miles (ILSAC P levels are designed to protect emissions equipment with this "normal" consumption.
It's the "best" point that marries these competing issues for a mass produced car, sold to the masses, most of whom won't open the service booklet anyway.
The P limits don't apply to non ILSAC grades, and 40s are certainly non ILSAC....and I doubt that 1qt/1,000 miles would be the outcome of running a dual rated oil, unless the vehicle was already half dead.
And as bbhero suggests, there are oils the meet SN, and are dual rated...they aren't ILSAC GF-5, but they aren't intended to be....and they are extremely unlikely to mess up your emissions equipment.
It will put you in a compleltely different operating envelope than
Originally Posted By: GenaFishbeck
You make some great points Merkava_4, because of those higher zinc and phosphorous levels that you mention, diesel engine oils are not recommended to be used in today’s newer gasoline engines. The top tier diesel engine oils of today are rated as an API CJ-4/API SM motor oil but most newer passenger car vehicles are calling for the newer API SN/ILSAC GF-5 category which has lower levels of the zinc and phosphorous than the API SM diesel engine oils do.
I've asked this before, but it's fallen on deaf ears, but I'm willing to try again. If Shell is so concerned about using Rotella in gasoline engines, why do they obtain a gasoline engine certification on Rotella? They could drop the SM altogether if it's such a concern. Certain Motorcraft and Delvac Elite oils have CJ-4 but lack any SM or SN specification.
If a gasoline engine calls for an SM or better oil in a 5w-40, then Rotella 5w-40 CJ-4/SM fits exactly what the manufacturer called for.
Also, now's as good a time as any to ask the question. Mobil and Chevron each offer an ACEA E6 CJ-4/SN low phosphorous HDEO. Will Shell be following suit soon?
You make some great points Merkava_4, because of those higher zinc and phosphorous levels that you mention, diesel engine oils are not recommended to be used in today’s newer gasoline engines. The top tier diesel engine oils of today are rated as an API CJ-4/API SM motor oil but most newer passenger car vehicles are calling for the newer API SN/ILSAC GF-5 category which has lower levels of the zinc and phosphorous than the API SM diesel engine oils do.
I've asked this before, but it's fallen on deaf ears, but I'm willing to try again. If Shell is so concerned about using Rotella in gasoline engines, why do they obtain a gasoline engine certification on Rotella? They could drop the SM altogether if it's such a concern. Certain Motorcraft and Delvac Elite oils have CJ-4 but lack any SM or SN specification.
If a gasoline engine calls for an SM or better oil in a 5w-40, then Rotella 5w-40 CJ-4/SM fits exactly what the manufacturer called for.
Also, now's as good a time as any to ask the question. Mobil and Chevron each offer an ACEA E6 CJ-4/SN low phosphorous HDEO. Will Shell be following suit soon?
Exactly my friend
Why go through the hassle of getting the Rotella a gasoline specification for SM if they really don't one to run it ??? Rotella T5 is a very good economical choice for people who have a bit of an older car that can run really good on it. Heck at $15 a four qt container at Wally world is a pretty fair deal for a very good oil.
Why go through the hassle of getting the Rotella a gasoline specification for SM if they really don't one to run it ??? Rotella T5 is a very good economical choice for people who have a bit of an older car that can run really good on it. Heck at $15 a four qt container at Wally world is a pretty fair deal for a very good oil.
Yep, and certain Korean vehicles do call for a 5w-40 in SM or better. It seems to be that Rotella 5w-40 in CJ-4/SM would fall well within warranty guidelines.
Originally Posted By: ShotGun429
15W-40 Service Pro oil year round in my 2002 4x4 4.0L Sohc Ranger. (yeah thats the Engine with the very Cronic timing chain and guide problems, death rattle,etc) I have never put a wrench on this engine until i changed spark plugs for the first time at 161,000 miles few weeks ago.Truck bought new. @ 170,000 now. purrs like a kitten.
We still have a 98 Explorer in the family my father in law has used as a airport/home depot run truck for 10 + years. Absolutely bare minimum maintenance. Death rattles like no tomorrow but has for 5 + years. Failed emissions last year. Upper intake manifold gasket replaced and back to passing. Cannot kill it.
Havoline 10w40 conventional is what I put in it a year ago and I doubt its been changed since. Motor sounds horrible on start up but just wont die at 200k.
15W-40 Service Pro oil year round in my 2002 4x4 4.0L Sohc Ranger. (yeah thats the Engine with the very Cronic timing chain and guide problems, death rattle,etc) I have never put a wrench on this engine until i changed spark plugs for the first time at 161,000 miles few weeks ago.Truck bought new. @ 170,000 now. purrs like a kitten.
We still have a 98 Explorer in the family my father in law has used as a airport/home depot run truck for 10 + years. Absolutely bare minimum maintenance. Death rattles like no tomorrow but has for 5 + years. Failed emissions last year. Upper intake manifold gasket replaced and back to passing. Cannot kill it.
Havoline 10w40 conventional is what I put in it a year ago and I doubt its been changed since. Motor sounds horrible on start up but just wont die at 200k.
OK, it's beginning to make sense to me. I've never used HDEOs, but I'm beginning to see the point.
I remember people talking about diesel oils ages ago, but I heard too many conflicting reports. This was before synthetics were generally available over here, and when they turned up i never looked back.
Anyway, I've compared a few mineral oils of the same weight (15W40) from the same manufacturer (valvoline, since I have many of their product data sheets, no other reason).
Name ---- XLD-----Engine Armour----- Diesel Extra---XLD
Weight ---15W40-----15W40----------15W40-------20W50
Base----Mineral-----Semi-Syn---------Mineral??-----Mineral
Vis100C--15.0------15.1-------------15.3---------18.3
Vis40C---115------116--------------113----------164
VI-------135-------135-------------142----------124
TBN-----7.8--------7.8-------------11.4----------6.9
API ----SL/CF-------SN/CF-----------SL/CI4------SL/CF
ACEA---(none)----A3/B3/B4-------E7/E5/E3/A3/B3/B4---(none)
Considering I use to run mineral oils like XLD 15W40 or GTX 20W50 in my cars and bikes, I can see how the Diesel Extra was a stouter oil than the other 15W40 PCMOs and with a much better Viscosity Index and low temp viscosity than the 20W50. Great TBN, and the the extra shear stability would have been perfect for my old bikes.
I wish I knew all this back then. Makes me want to buy an old car/bike just for the warm inner glow of running HDEO in it.
Yes, I understand that a lot of modern cars can't use this stuff as they need SN, low SAPS etc., but it's nice to know it's there if you ever need it.
When it comes to full synthetic HDEO Vs PCMO, the advantage doesn't quite seem as clear cut to me, but I'm happy to be educated if I've missed something.
I remember people talking about diesel oils ages ago, but I heard too many conflicting reports. This was before synthetics were generally available over here, and when they turned up i never looked back.
Anyway, I've compared a few mineral oils of the same weight (15W40) from the same manufacturer (valvoline, since I have many of their product data sheets, no other reason).
Name ---- XLD-----Engine Armour----- Diesel Extra---XLD
Weight ---15W40-----15W40----------15W40-------20W50
Base----Mineral-----Semi-Syn---------Mineral??-----Mineral
Vis100C--15.0------15.1-------------15.3---------18.3
Vis40C---115------116--------------113----------164
VI-------135-------135-------------142----------124
TBN-----7.8--------7.8-------------11.4----------6.9
API ----SL/CF-------SN/CF-----------SL/CI4------SL/CF
ACEA---(none)----A3/B3/B4-------E7/E5/E3/A3/B3/B4---(none)
Considering I use to run mineral oils like XLD 15W40 or GTX 20W50 in my cars and bikes, I can see how the Diesel Extra was a stouter oil than the other 15W40 PCMOs and with a much better Viscosity Index and low temp viscosity than the 20W50. Great TBN, and the the extra shear stability would have been perfect for my old bikes.
I wish I knew all this back then. Makes me want to buy an old car/bike just for the warm inner glow of running HDEO in it.
Yes, I understand that a lot of modern cars can't use this stuff as they need SN, low SAPS etc., but it's nice to know it's there if you ever need it.
When it comes to full synthetic HDEO Vs PCMO, the advantage doesn't quite seem as clear cut to me, but I'm happy to be educated if I've missed something.
Hi,
Merkava4 - I've used dual rated HDEOs in petrol engine vehicles since the early 1960s'- and still do. IMO they should be compliant with the OEM in API Classification and viscosity
These "Commercial" lubricants are primarily intended for mixed Fleet (Diesel/Petrol engines) use and of course perform at the leading edge in these applications - these end users won't use under performing products
It is hard to break the Fleet use cycle in terms of Brand and viscosity - mainly due to the mixed ages and types of engines in service
I commenced using them following on from Mercedes Benz and Porsche specifying HD lubricant in the 1950-1960s. I believe this was due to the variable quality of the PCMOs of that era. I always used lubricant at that time that carried MB and CAT Approvals or met their Specs
Their use should be driven by the OEM's nominated (API/ACEA) Classification and viscosity
Merkava4 - I've used dual rated HDEOs in petrol engine vehicles since the early 1960s'- and still do. IMO they should be compliant with the OEM in API Classification and viscosity
These "Commercial" lubricants are primarily intended for mixed Fleet (Diesel/Petrol engines) use and of course perform at the leading edge in these applications - these end users won't use under performing products
It is hard to break the Fleet use cycle in terms of Brand and viscosity - mainly due to the mixed ages and types of engines in service
I commenced using them following on from Mercedes Benz and Porsche specifying HD lubricant in the 1950-1960s. I believe this was due to the variable quality of the PCMOs of that era. I always used lubricant at that time that carried MB and CAT Approvals or met their Specs
Their use should be driven by the OEM's nominated (API/ACEA) Classification and viscosity
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: GenaFishbeck
You make some great points Merkava_4, because of those higher zinc and phosphorous levels that you mention, diesel engine oils are not recommended to be used in today’s newer gasoline engines. The top tier diesel engine oils of today are rated as an API CJ-4/API SM motor oil but most newer passenger car vehicles are calling for the newer API SN/ILSAC GF-5 category which has lower levels of the zinc and phosphorous than the API SM diesel engine oils do.
I've asked this before, but it's fallen on deaf ears, but I'm willing to try again. If Shell is so concerned about using Rotella in gasoline engines, why do they obtain a gasoline engine certification on Rotella? They could drop the SM altogether if it's such a concern. Certain Motorcraft and Delvac Elite oils have CJ-4 but lack any SM or SN specification.
If a gasoline engine calls for an SM or better oil in a 5w-40, then Rotella 5w-40 CJ-4/SM fits exactly what the manufacturer called for.
Also, now's as good a time as any to ask the question. Mobil and Chevron each offer an ACEA E6 CJ-4/SN low phosphorous HDEO. Will Shell be following suit soon?
Hey Garak – To clarify, Shell Rotella engine oils meet both the API CJ-4 rating (for “compression” diesel engines), as well as the API SM rating (for “spark” gasoline engines). The API SM rating is backwards compatible with previous-to-API SM-categories, but it is NOT forward compatible with the API SN/ILSAC GF 5 category. Hence, you shouldn’t see a gasoline engine recommendation for an “SM or better” oil, as stated in your post. Frankly, it’s not a matter of API SN being “better” than API SM - they are just built differently, for a different application.
Simply put, a gasoline engine that asks for an SM oil already knows how the SM oil was built and the tests that it had to pass to be certified as an API SM oil. The same goes for SN/ILSAC GF5. If an engine calls for an API SN/ILSAC GF 5 oil, then it is asking for a gasoline oil with the appropriate low-SAPS additive levels and the specific tests that an SN/ILSAC GF 5 oil had to pass, etc.
What all of this means is: Shell Rotella HDEO engine oil might be a consideration for slightly modified performance engines with aftermarket (aggressive) camshafts and sliding followers or even older engines asking for API SM or previous oils (again, engines that might need a higher level of anti-wear agents). For your reference, the Rotella HDEO multi-viscosity oils contain approx. 1,200 ppm of zinc. With that said, we would NOT recommend Shell Rotella HDEO multi-viscosity products for any gasoline engine asking for an API SN/ILSAC GF 5 rated oil. These oils are for engines that only want approx. 800 ppm of zinc. If Rotella HDEO were to be put in an API SN/ILSAC GF 5 engine, there would be an increased possibility of catalytic converter issues (due to the higher amount of anti-wear agents in the HDEO, etc.). Hope this info helps! – The Pennzoil & Shell Rotella Teams
Originally Posted By: GenaFishbeck
You make some great points Merkava_4, because of those higher zinc and phosphorous levels that you mention, diesel engine oils are not recommended to be used in today’s newer gasoline engines. The top tier diesel engine oils of today are rated as an API CJ-4/API SM motor oil but most newer passenger car vehicles are calling for the newer API SN/ILSAC GF-5 category which has lower levels of the zinc and phosphorous than the API SM diesel engine oils do.
I've asked this before, but it's fallen on deaf ears, but I'm willing to try again. If Shell is so concerned about using Rotella in gasoline engines, why do they obtain a gasoline engine certification on Rotella? They could drop the SM altogether if it's such a concern. Certain Motorcraft and Delvac Elite oils have CJ-4 but lack any SM or SN specification.
If a gasoline engine calls for an SM or better oil in a 5w-40, then Rotella 5w-40 CJ-4/SM fits exactly what the manufacturer called for.
Also, now's as good a time as any to ask the question. Mobil and Chevron each offer an ACEA E6 CJ-4/SN low phosphorous HDEO. Will Shell be following suit soon?
Hey Garak – To clarify, Shell Rotella engine oils meet both the API CJ-4 rating (for “compression” diesel engines), as well as the API SM rating (for “spark” gasoline engines). The API SM rating is backwards compatible with previous-to-API SM-categories, but it is NOT forward compatible with the API SN/ILSAC GF 5 category. Hence, you shouldn’t see a gasoline engine recommendation for an “SM or better” oil, as stated in your post. Frankly, it’s not a matter of API SN being “better” than API SM - they are just built differently, for a different application.
Simply put, a gasoline engine that asks for an SM oil already knows how the SM oil was built and the tests that it had to pass to be certified as an API SM oil. The same goes for SN/ILSAC GF5. If an engine calls for an API SN/ILSAC GF 5 oil, then it is asking for a gasoline oil with the appropriate low-SAPS additive levels and the specific tests that an SN/ILSAC GF 5 oil had to pass, etc.
What all of this means is: Shell Rotella HDEO engine oil might be a consideration for slightly modified performance engines with aftermarket (aggressive) camshafts and sliding followers or even older engines asking for API SM or previous oils (again, engines that might need a higher level of anti-wear agents). For your reference, the Rotella HDEO multi-viscosity oils contain approx. 1,200 ppm of zinc. With that said, we would NOT recommend Shell Rotella HDEO multi-viscosity products for any gasoline engine asking for an API SN/ILSAC GF 5 rated oil. These oils are for engines that only want approx. 800 ppm of zinc. If Rotella HDEO were to be put in an API SN/ILSAC GF 5 engine, there would be an increased possibility of catalytic converter issues (due to the higher amount of anti-wear agents in the HDEO, etc.). Hope this info helps! – The Pennzoil & Shell Rotella Teams
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