DI intake valve deposits

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
What I have read allot on this site is higher the VI The better to some degree. So is it possible those additives to create such may contribute to the crud build up?

VI isn't an additive, it's a measure. VIIs are an additive. There are base stocks that have a naturally high VI. In fact, the definition of a Group III oil is based upon VI.

Your mention of SAPS is important, too. Red Line thinks it's an issue, and so do various European automakers.

There are all kinds of theories being tossed around. Some in the know suggest that OCIs must not be too short, that it's good to allow the volatile compounds to cook off and leave it that way for a time. Then, as mentioned, automakers are looking for new approaches at keeping valves clean.

DI engines are a case where I wouldn't necessarily go with the "oil is oil" view. Fuel dilution always has bugged me, so I certainly see the value in wanting a low NOACK lube that doesn't shear and (in the DI case) doesn't have excessive SAPS level.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Just would like the forums view on this quote from Penzoil in regards to intake valve deposits and oil and what not.

Oil volatility is not a significant factor for inlet valve deposits in a direct injection gasoline engine. The significant factor is viscosity modifier type and concentration, so using fully synthetic narrow span viscosity grades such as 5W-20 is beneficial. In North America, there is no specification calling for NOACK of less than 10%. The most important thing for DI engines is engine design, to better prevent deposits on ITV’s (In Take Valves), since there is no fuel wash as in PFI (Port Fuel Injection) engines. "

So if this is the case would an oil like Redline 5w30 be of benefit?

Jeff

Yeah, but, all oils that meet MB 229.5 have NOACK less then 10% (M1, PU 5W40, GC).
It is just that Redline 5W30, 5W40, 5W40 Euro have extremely low NOACK of 6% (for example Amsoil 5W40 is 8.7%).
That is why I will never use Castrol 5W40 because it does not meet MB 229.5, which means NOACK is higher then 10%.



Didn't castrol score the best in Amsoil's testing in the deposit formation category.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Just would like the forums view on this quote from Penzoil in regards to intake valve deposits and oil and what not.

Oil volatility is not a significant factor for inlet valve deposits in a direct injection gasoline engine. The significant factor is viscosity modifier type and concentration, so using fully synthetic narrow span viscosity grades such as 5W-20 is beneficial. In North America, there is no specification calling for NOACK of less than 10%. The most important thing for DI engines is engine design, to better prevent deposits on ITV’s (In Take Valves), since there is no fuel wash as in PFI (Port Fuel Injection) engines. "

So if this is the case would an oil like Redline 5w30 be of benefit?

Jeff

Yeah, but, all oils that meet MB 229.5 have NOACK less then 10% (M1, PU 5W40, GC).
It is just that Redline 5W30, 5W40, 5W40 Euro have extremely low NOACK of 6% (for example Amsoil 5W40 is 8.7%).
That is why I will never use Castrol 5W40 because it does not meet MB 229.5, which means NOACK is higher then 10%.



Didn't castrol score the best in Amsoil's testing in the deposit formation category.


Castrol 5W40?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Just would like the forums view on this quote from Penzoil in regards to intake valve deposits and oil and what not.

Oil volatility is not a significant factor for inlet valve deposits in a direct injection gasoline engine. The significant factor is viscosity modifier type and concentration, so using fully synthetic narrow span viscosity grades such as 5W-20 is beneficial. In North America, there is no specification calling for NOACK of less than 10%. The most important thing for DI engines is engine design, to better prevent deposits on ITV’s (In Take Valves), since there is no fuel wash as in PFI (Port Fuel Injection) engines. "

So if this is the case would an oil like Redline 5w30 be of benefit?

Jeff

Yeah, but, all oils that meet MB 229.5 have NOACK less then 10% (M1, PU 5W40, GC).
It is just that Redline 5W30, 5W40, 5W40 Euro have extremely low NOACK of 6% (for example Amsoil 5W40 is 8.7%).
That is why I will never use Castrol 5W40 because it does not meet MB 229.5, which means NOACK is higher then 10%.



Didn't castrol score the best in Amsoil's testing in the deposit formation category.


Castrol 5W40?


No, it was a test of 5w-30's IIRC, not really applicable to the oils being discussed.

 

[edyvw]

Yeah, I just went to research and saw it is 5W30 Titanuim.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

With DI motors though fuel dilution is an issue. I really can't see going as long on the oci as recommended by vw. I mean your tbn would be at zero. So using a low saps oil your looking at 3k intervals Max most likely. On the M1 0w40 after 3300 miles tbn was 3.6 I an going to check it again at 5k but not really the point but if leaving the oil in longer may prevent deposit formation then I may try and go as long as the tbn will hold.

Redline though recommend that I do not use their low saps oil. Said its for diesel cars. I tried explaining my side but the disagreed that the saps were a major contributor.

Still going to try out the italian tune up way. Some folks with bmw di motors have had much success with that.

Jeff

 

[chrome]

Back in 2002, VW filed a patent on various methods on counteracting valve deposits on DI engines. Check out patent US6866031 B2.

One of the interesting facts presented is the ability of the intake valves to "self clean" from elevated operation temperatures, provided the engine is operated in a specific load / rpm region. Some have suggested a hard 30 min run at greater than 3000rpm on a freeway will clean the valves.

Interesting read if you have the time...

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: chrome
Back in 2002, VW filed a patent on various methods on counteracting valve deposits on DI engines. Check out patent US6866031 B2.

One of the interesting facts presented is the ability of the intake valves to "self clean" from elevated operation temperatures, provided the engine is operated in a specific load / rpm region. Some have suggested a hard 30 min run at greater than 3000rpm on a freeway will clean the valves.

Interesting read if you have the time...


Good find Thank you very much!!

 

[artificialist]

I once heard that Detroit 2-stroke diesels needed monograde oil because the VIIs would cause a problem with deposits. Seems like an interesting comparison between what happened back then and what is happening now.

Of course, Detroit 2-stroke engines needed different oils for other reasons, so the comparison I made may not be fair.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

So an oil with a low NOACK would help which we all know. M1 0w40 is what 8% NOACK? In comparison and only for comparison purposes Redline having a NOACK of 6% would be a better choice to use? Is that 2% difference I wonder going to make a major difference?

Additionally does Redline use less VII's? vs M1 0w40? If blow by can be reduced as much as possible the valves should in theory get less contamination and therfore less prone to carbon sticking to them?

Seems the patent kinda confirms this belief doesn't it?

Jeff

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Redline though recommend that I do not use their low saps oil. Said its for diesel cars.

That's mostly a North American issue to to higher sulphur in gasoline. Things might be a bit better in California.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Redline though recommend that I do not use their low saps oil. Said its for diesel cars.

That's mostly a North American issue to to higher sulphur in gasoline. Things might be a bit better in California.

Things are def better in CA.
I moved to CA from AL. In AL always had smell of gas when I take out oil dipstick, especially with M1.
In CA no smell at all. I am right now in San Diego, my wifes Tig does not have gas smell in oil, and she only does city driving.
My CC on other hand now since I moved to CO, have gas smell issues again.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

With a 6% Noack seems Redline 5w30 would be a good choice at least in reducing blow by which seems is a contributor to the valve deposits according to the patent paper.

As mentioned before Redline did not recommend the use of their low saps oil for my application. Just their regular 5w30.

If it was only VW approved

Jeff

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
With a 6% Noack seems Redline 5w30 would be a good choice at least in reducing blow by which seems is a contributor to the valve deposits according to the patent paper.

As mentioned before Redline did not recommend the use of their low saps oil for my application. Just their regular 5w30.

If it was only VW approved

Jeff


IIRC, the high heat deposit test AMSOIL did actually showed Redline doing poorly. The one that did the best was Castrol

 

[JAG]

Amsoil's test was TEOST 33, if I recall correctly. Whichever one it was, it was one that inherently penalizes oils containing molybdenum-based additives, which Red Line PCMOs use heavily. So I wasn't too surprised by its test result. In different high temperature environments, molybdenum additives don't show that pro-deposit behavior. TEOST 33C is meant to simulate turbocharger deposits. Intake valve deposits are made under a set of quite different mechanisms than turbo deposits.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Amsoil's test was TEOST 33, if I recall correctly. Whichever one it was, it was one that inherently penalizes oils containing molybdenum-based additives, which Red Line PCMOs use heavily. So I wasn't too surprised by its test result. In different high temperature environments, molybdenum additives don't show that pro-deposit behavior. TEOST 33C is meant to simulate turbocharger deposits. Intake valve deposits are made under a set of quite different mechanisms than turbo deposits.


But what about a DI turbo engine

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
With a 6% Noack seems Redline 5w30 would be a good choice at least in reducing blow by which seems is a contributor to the valve deposits according to the patent paper.

As mentioned before Redline did not recommend the use of their low saps oil for my application. Just their regular 5w30.

If it was only VW approved

Jeff


IIRC, the high heat deposit test AMSOIL did actually showed Redline doing poorly. The one that did the best was Castrol

Being that Amsoil posted it? I wouldnt be surprised. I dont trust Amsoil AT ALL. For my own personal reasons that I wont mention. Dont need to create a war here.

Redline though being Group 5 as far as heat and blow by is concerned?? I dont think you can top Redline.

What I do know is on my past evo's I ran Redline 5w30 pushing 150 whp more than stock, tracked the car, DD the car, and after 60K miles never had one mechanical failure. My Evo 9 Had an oil temp gauge and with Redline it ran at least 10-15 C cooler than any other oil I tried on the track. So that sold me too.

That was an Evo, this a a VW and we are talking apples and oranges. The DI motor seems to be a culprit of many carbon related issues. I run M1 0w40 now and have no issues with it, and its inexpensive and easy to find........plus its 502 approved.

I just have this whole "ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" mentality. If there is something I can do,to help prevent this carbon from attacking the valves, then I will do it.

I did do a "Italian" type tune up the other day. I went on the freeway, ran at 70-75 mph in 4th. Was around 4200 rpm for 15-20 minutes. When I parked my car at home I saw my chrome tail pipes had black soot on the bottom of them. So maybe it helped? I will do this once a month, keep using top tier gas, and keep using the M1 0w40 changed every 3-5k miles depending on my UOA's. 3k seems too early, so I will re test at 5k. I mean, the oil is $23 at walmart for 5qts, EDI's really arent my concern. Just keeping the engine clean as possible is.

Jeff

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I did do a "Italian" type tune up the other day. I went on the freeway, ran at 70-75 mph in 4th. Was around 4200 rpm for 15-20 minutes. When I parked my car at home I saw my chrome tail pipes had black soot on the bottom of them. So maybe it helped? I will do this once a month, keep using top tier gas, and keep using the M1 0w40 changed every 3-5k miles depending on my UOA's. 3k seems too early, so I will re test at 5k. I mean, the oil is $23 at walmart for 5qts, EDI's really arent my concern. Just keeping the engine clean as possible is.

Jeff


My exhaust is constantly caked in black soot, but my engine typically sees redline at least once per turn of the key. The dipstick reads "full" through an entire 10k OCI, and the engine hasn't eaten itself yet.

I think you're being paranoid and babying your car a bit too much. The only time I've changed my oil in less than 10k miles was after I took it to an autocross, and that was at 5k.

70k miles later it still spins the tires in second gear at full throttle and gets about 28 MPG (average) on my commute (car is not modified). If the valves are covered with carbon it doesn't seem to have much of an impact on how the engine performs.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

My exhaust is constantly caked in black soot, but my engine typically sees redline at least once per turn of the key. The dipstick reads "full" through an entire 10k OCI, and the engine hasn't eaten itself yet.

I think you're being paranoid and babying your car a bit too much. The only time I've changed my oil in less than 10k miles was after I took it to an autocross, and that was at 5k.

70k miles later it still spins the tires in second gear at full throttle and gets about 28 MPG (average) on my commute (car is not modified). If the valves are covered with carbon it doesn't seem to have much of an impact on how the engine performs. [/quote]

Redlining your car daily isn't going to do much unless you around 4k rpm for 20-30 min according to the forums for the TSI.

Your engine with those miles DOES have the build up, seems what happens to most is at cold start the check engine light comes on. It does this due to miss fires in relation to the intake valve deposits. When that happens, take it to the dealer. It seems most if not all TSI owners from 70k-100k miles this happens. I believe the variance is due to fuel type people use and just overall use of the car.

I dont do 10k OCI. If you do? Fine. But after seeing the oil shear and drop TBN so quickly with both M1 and PU Im not going to see how long I can go. The oil is cheap, so I dont mind changing it more than needed.

Its not that I baby the car, I just dont abuse it. Im a gear head and love to mess with cars. Im not messing with this one. Not sure if the TSI could handle what I would want to do, but then again, if I wanted a 450hp car I would have kept my Evo which was a much better platform to build HP on.

Jeff

 

[Mykl]

I'm not sure how people on the TSI forums are able to effectively test the difference in carbon build-up resistance between holding the RPMs at 4000 for 20 minutes versus redlining the car several times a day. If those forums could outline their technique for testing and measuring the results, I could buy into it.

I never said that my car didn't have build-up. What I'm saying is that if the build-up isn't impacting the engine's operation, reliability, or durability then why should I care? My car is in your "definitely will break" envelope, so I guess we'll see what happens.