DEX-COOL Tragedy !

Status
Not open for further replies.
O

outrun

Joined
Nov 26, 2002
Messages
1,715
Location
Texas & BWI Area
Here is the run down.

Car had a mystery cooling system leak for the past 3-4months...resevoir kept dropping but nothing on the driveway?

Took the car to local Goodyear...and get this.

They said the DEX-COOL had "eaten" through my driver-side intake manifold gasket on my 3800 engine.

They did also drain the 5W30 SS Mobil 1 and replace it with the new SL 5W30 Royal Purple.

I did get a sample of Mobil 1 for my 1st ever oil analysis...however now I will not send it to Blackstone since I am extremely fearful of the any numbers they will send back.

I have totally babied this car from showroom until now.

How severe can the engine damage be from the coolant leak? I could not sleep last week thinking about this... *lol* symptons of being a motorhead i guess!

Should I change the brand Royal Purple fill immediately after the ASE guys at the Chevy dealer replace the intake manifold gasket?

Is it fair to say that the DEX-COOL did this?

I am also going to change/machine flush out the DEX-COOL and upgrade it to what Honda's or BMW makers use. I do have Evans NPG+ in mind also...although it costs 25$/gallon! One person already emailed me with recommendations.

Of interest the oil sample did not show any visible oil-water separation
smile.gif


Thanks for any advice yall can make here!
 
I have 2 GM vehicles. One has a pressurized overflow bottle, and one that does not. On the car with the non-pressurized overflow I have to fill it with dexcool very often, more so that any cars I've owned that ran green coolant. Anyway get that gasket replaced ASAP if you haven't already.
Bub
 
The 3800 engine has been around for a couple decades. Which year do your have? GM does not recommend using Dexcool in pre-1993 cars.
 
My father owns a 1997 Lumina with the 3.1 liter engine. I was visiting them this past weekend and I opened the hood to have a look-see. The coolant reservoir tank was nearly empty and all that was inside of it was a brown wet mud, approximately 20 ounces worth. I asked him if he had ever changed his coolant and he said no. It is supposed to last 5 years but his car has passed that mark and then some.

I have seen the regular HOAT coolants that have never been changed in a dozen years and they don't react this way. I don't believe that these Long-Life OAT carboxylate coolants are all that they're cracked up to be. My Volkswagen uses the OAT technology but it uses a different chemical mix from what is sold OTC by Havoline as Dex-Cool and the other Dex-Cool compatible brands.

I'll continue to use the red G-12 coolant that is in my VW but all of my other vehicles are going to get some version of the phosphorous free, low silicate "regular" anti-freeze (ie. Zerex G-05).
 
DexCool is OK as long as no air is allowed in the system. I doubt if it ate through the head and blew the gasket. I use it in both my Ford Taurus SHOs '93 and '97 and no problems at all. The red mud is from allowing air in the system and then the corrosion/rusting starts rapidly.
 
I'm glad my Firebird is one of the last years that got the conventional green coolant.

Although maybe the Dexcool would've prevented my water pump for failing relatively early? (I've heard that's one of the benefits of Dexcool) I just replaced mine on Monday, with just 79k on it. OK, maybe it's not super early, but I'd at least expect it to go to 100k before giving up the ghost on me. And it would have to fail in the coldest winter ever, so that I ended up having to pay the GM dealer to do it, instead of the many of my car club buddies who would've helped me out (if it were warmer out)

[ February 19, 2003, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]
 
I have over the years only used the green stuff. I just change it with a flush every 2 years. In that time I have not had a water pump fail, t-stat or radiator fail, this on motors with at least 150k on them. IMHO keeping air out of the cooling system is paramount to good cooling system performance and longevity.

I only recently went to the Orange Kool-aid stuff and when it gets drained I will go back to green. I only used the cheapest stuff in the past with no problems. No sense in using the most expensive stuff and worry about it.
 
We had this thread on the SaabNet back in October. One of the (Scandinavian) mechanics was sent to a "Coolant Class" & came back & reported this info. There was a lot of discussion, since all Saabs get GM DexCool as factory fill. I've combined several posts together here, to give a better picture of all the info that was discussed. All the comments are from the mechanic who attended the class:

"A common beleive is that color of coolant decide what type of coolant it's in there. NOT TRUE.

They have the coolant split up by 5 different main groups.
American,Asian,Europeen,Dexcool and Hybrids.

American style have more Silicates and moderate amount of Phosphates. Asian style is high on Phosphates and no Silicates.
European style have no Phosphates and no Silicates.
DexCool uses organic acids called Carboxylates instead and is Phosphate and Silicate free.
Hybrid style have organic acids and low levels of Silicate but no Phosphate,

He believed that the Hybrid Coolant is the future, because of the alround protection. But it's also more expensive.

The three first are similar but only more or less interchangeable, and they all come in a wide range of colors. Green,Red,Blue and Gold.

He strongly pointed out to the shop owners that if you don't know whats in there, a thourough flush of the whole system is the only way to go, and fill up with new coolant.

Distilled or purified water is not a must, ( only if your water quality is really bad, do you need to use bottled water )

If adding the wrong coolant to a system, you actually shortens the lifespan of the components.

He also talked a lot about Dex Cool, and said that they have found out that leaving the Dex Cool in the car for more than two years, it starts to dissolve plastic parts (polymerization)

Rumors and hearsaying is that GM is fighting to blame it on everything else but the coolant, and hope that the cars are out of warranty before they start to fail.

Dex Cool works great though if flushed and changed every two years, he pointed out.

Chrysler have starting to use a Hybrid Coolant ( G-05 )that is also orange in color, and many shops top of the Chrysler cars with Dex Cool, which is VERY bad."
____________

"For a person that takes care of his car, which most of the owners on this board do. Pretty much everything is usuable.

The key point is to FLUSH the system, not only drop the plug, close it and fill up.

And do it every two years as the longest interval.

The problem with Dex Cool is that, since they state that it's a long life Coolant, people put it in and forget about it for 5-10 years.

And test have shown that after 2 years it starts to disolve all the plastic inside the system.

Plastic that is used in auto business is called nylon 6.6. That's the one that Dex Cool is attacking.

The key point for you is to keep track of what you poured into the car, and if you need to top off, use the same formula.

NOT just go with that I put 'green' in, so green it is.

I do like the feel and look of the Saab OEM coolant, so if you have a chance to get that I would recommend it.

Otherwise, the Hybrid G-05 looks very promising, but expensive.

One caution is for everyone that is still under factory warranty, USE OEM only."
____________

"Hybrid Coolant ( orange,gold/yellow etc)
These combine organic acids with low Silicate levels and no Phosphates. The Silicates are very stable at these levels but dramatically enhance aluminum and cavitation protection. G-05 hybrid coolant is factory fill in Chrysler L series, Merceds Benz and Ford Super Duty Powerstroke diesel applications. This is probably the coolant of the future. It's realistic service life is probably at least as good as any other coolant."
____________

"The DexCool thing is something the GM is gonna fight to the bitter end, because it's millions or even billions of dollars at stake if they loose the tax status that comes with enviromentally safe cars. Not to talk about all the comebacks and maybe recalls of Coolant components."


Hope this helps.
 
quote:
He also talked a lot about Dex Cool, and said that they have found out that leaving the Dex Cool in the car for more than two years, it starts to dissolve plastic parts (polymerization)
Click to expand...
The big selling feature for Dexcool was that it was a 5 year coolant. So if you must change it every 2 years then it's not cost effective at all.

My 98 Formula had Dexcool in it, and I used to drain and refill the rad twice a year. I'd do the same with any future cars that come with it.
 
Update:

As advised by the local goodyear i took the vehicle to his recommended Chevrolet Dealer. Since I am away from home at school in Delaware it ended up being at a dealer totally unknown to me. At least in texas the dealer that i bought my car from is the only people that EVER touch my baby.

The manager at Newark, Delaware's Porter Chevrolet tells me [Paraphrased] "DEX-COOL does not eat at gasket materiel...or something like DEX-COOL did not cause your problem."

After reading so many online sites of people with GM engines equipped with DEX-COOL having cooling system nightmares out of warranty i felt lied to in my face.

A) Or perhaps he is legally liable not to admit any fault by GM?

It is no my conclusion that I will have my radiator drained and filled with distilled water and an aggressive block flush solvent twice over and then machine re-filled with G-05.

The car gets a new intake manifold gasket this monday. Goodyears said labor and parts should be no more than 300.00$ using standard book computations.

B) If the intake manifold is coming off would it be wise of me to go ahead and have them throughly clean it internally and out of any crud? Car is 5yrs old and 67,000miles

C)Is the Zerex DEX-COOL equivalent at Auto-Zone the just as dangerous as the GM Havoline DEX-COOL?

D)What is the best brand of G-05 out there? Auto Zone had Zerex G-05. How long is G-05 good for service life wise?


Thanks-


Thanks,
 
I made a mistake and put dexcool in my 92 honda civic around 40,000 miles. Not too long afterwards my water pump started leaking. Had the water pump replaced when the timing belt was replaced, and went back to green Honda coolant. Put well over 100,000 miles on that car and never leaked again.
 
I'd like to make a correction to one of the previous posts. G-05 is yellow in color, not red. The only manufacturer of G-05 in North America is Zerex (Ashland/Valvoline). G-05 is a Glysantin formula originally used in heavy duty diesel engines in Europe and is manufactured in North America under authority of BASF AG.

I have seen G-05 at NAPA, Autozone, and the three vehicle brands that factory install it - Mercedes Benz, Chrysler, and Ford. It costs $7.95 per gallon at Autozone and I am unsure of the price at the other places.

G-05 has a 3 year service life.

I highly recommend G-05 and also G-48 for all liquid cooled engines. They both have a 3 year service life but their corrosion results are very impressive. G-48 is sold at VW/Audi as G-11 (blue in color) and at BMW automobile and motorcycle dealerships.
 
It would be nice to know what year, make and model vehicle is being discussed here.

But you can't always believe everything you read on the web, people can slant it to their personal opinion and it may have little information based on fact and most based on emotion. It seems to be a place for lot of bitching. Everyone is blaming some product or another for problems that may or may not be related to the product itself. The are millions of cars with Dexcool and a few hundred (at best) on line bitching. Many people add water to the coolant recovery tanks thinking they are doing a good think when they may in fact be causing more harm than good.

All vehicles in the last 10-20 have become more complicated, expecially in the last 5 yrs. Some just drive them and pay little attention to them. The either don't notice or overlook a small problem until it becomes a major problem.

For a mechianic or anyone else to come out and say this caused that and you should not use this, its show thier ignorance in my opinion. Gaskets are the weakest link in the engine. Its not uncommon for them to fail.

I used Dexcool for years. It is not backward compatiable in many GM cars prior to 1996. If your car did not come with Dexcool, you should not use it without checking the owners manual or some other reputable source (not the web) to see if it OK to use.

[ February 20, 2003, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: Mike ]
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mike:
If your car did not come with Dexcool, you should not use it without checking the owners manual or some other reputable source (not the web) to see if it OK to use.
Click to expand...
I agree, the problem is,unfortunately, many many dealers do not know the correct answers either as you may know from asking them questions on lubrication; synthetics, filters, etc. So, a definitive source is almost impossible to locate on any topic today. I do agree, stay with what is in the manual in lieu of switching types of coolants.
 
outrun,
If you haven't already found it, here's a Zerex link with some descriptions:
Zerex-Valvoline

Mike,
You're absolutely right; the web is a place for folks to create & complain. But it's also a place to exchange. I know to not believe everything I read, hear or see, but at some point I have to make a decision. Do I discount everything but personal experience? Since I can't possibly experience everything there is I want (or need) to know about, I have to rely on the knowledge & experiences of others at some point. I absolutely agree that you have to consider the source. It comes down to where you go for advice & whom you trust.

I believe there's enough evidence to at least suggest that DexCool is creating problems, just as I believe there's enough evidence that shows fully-synthetic, PAO-based motor oil will protect my engine better after 10k miles of use than non-synthetic, mineral-based motor oil will after only 3k miles of use. Do I want to test the theory that DexCool's OK for its stated 5k miles by leaving in my system that long, just for the personal experience? No.

The fact that you've used DexCool without problems is a good data point for us, but doesn't really tell us any more about the potential long-term effects. How often do you flush your system? How much of your system is constructed of this "Nylon 6.6"? What are the differences in operating temperatures, pressures & dilution levels between your car & the ones affected? What are the differences in the mix water? Is your system dissolving something into solution which is protecting the plastic? Or not dissolving something into solution which attacks it?

Do we continue to buy Firestone tires until we, personally, experience a blowout? (I didn't feel they were safe to use after the round of fatal "500" & "721" blowouts they had in the late '70s! Why should I feel safe after this latest round of the same problem?)

Sorry, I really don't mean to be antagonistic about this. But I do feel it's a valid concern for folks who have it. Until its no longer plausible that DexCool may be creating problems, I feel it's prudent to remain cautious.
 
All I know is that I had the same batch of 50/50 Dexcool/distilled water in my Saturn for four years and just shy of 160,000 miles before I needed to replace my water pump. Up until then, the level never dropped an inch, no gaskets ever gave out, and aside from a little bit of crud in the pressurized tank from what I presume is the radiator casting, it was as pink as the day I drove it off the lot.

[ February 20, 2003, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: kev99sl ]
 
Mike,
I think you're absolutely right; it's a combination of materials & coolant chemistry. I can't say it's only DexCool just like you can't say it's only hoses, gaskets, housings, bearings, metalurgy, etc. And it very well may be that some vehicles use little or none of the materials being affected.

Here's a listing of stabilized grades of Nylon 6.6 from a thermoplastics website:
MDE Stabilized Nylon 6.6
The third type of stabilization listed is "Hydrolysis Resistant," which appears to address the concerns we're discussing here. If you then go to the "Approvals - Auto Source" tab at the top of the page, you'll get a list of approved plastics for GM, Chrysler, & Ford. Unfortunately, I don't see HR requirements among any of the listings.

The mechanic who attended the coolant class said it appeared as though anything was OK to use (even DexCool) if you changed it at 2yr-max intervals. But, as pointed out, DexCool's being marketed as a Long Life coolant. I don't claim to have definitive knowledge of what's going on. But I am concerned since I can't afford huge OOW costs & my car uses DexCool.
 
To the person who alledged people with DEX-COOL associated problems as "bitching"

You are greatly mistaken.

This problem with intake manifold gaskets on 3.1, 3.4, 3800 and 4300 vortec engines has been so serious as there is no a national GM backorder on these gaskets.

Hmmm..last time I checked the standard green coolants never caused this problem. In fact if you ever had a gasket problem it would be the head gasket after you added some super high performance bolt on (ie nitrous, blower etc).

The 3.1, 3800, and 4300 gasket materials were intended to be on the engine through normal maintence for an UNTOUCHED service life of 250,000 miles. These engines (with perhaps the exception of the 3.4) are arguable rank as some of the most reliable mass produced gas engine units in OE form made in the world.

The way you worded your brash indictment of all those on here that make fair calls againt auto problems was the same response the big three made to the seat belt or the 70's when wheels separated from moving cars, or the Pinto fire-ball accidents.

They always legally disavowed any fault, blamed the customer for frivolous lawsuits, and found every single excuse in the book.

GM is well aware of this DEX-COOL problem. As demonstrated by history they are doing eveything they can to allude the responsibilty of a recall.

You know nothing of my cars meticoulous maintence history either.
 
To say that there are problems with Dexcool is not fair. How do you know there are not problems with the gasket materials? The alloy in the engine block, the composition of the hoses etc.

See, its easy to say Dexcool but saying it does not make it so.

My 199 suburban has gone 95,000 miles on Dexcool. No problems and no one has ever added anything to it other than more Dexcool to top off. My 1996 Buick had Dexcool, 90,000 miles and it still looked good inside the radiator, recovery tank etc. My friend owns my 1996 K1500 truck and now has almost 100,000 and I know he has not changed the coolant yet. He just had to replace the intake gasket because it leaked and he was telling me how he had to pay $15 for gallonm of Dexcool from the GM dealer. When his intake started leaking, he went to the dealer for a gasket set and they told him that it was a common problem with the gasket failing over time. The RTV sealants are great for production effiency but are a problem in service.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Gravy
Genesis G90 3.3T - CRC GDI IVD Intake Valve & Turbo Cleaner
Replies
6
Views
2K
Gravy
E
Ford F-150 5.0 Coyote Tick and Oil Type
Replies
11
Views
595
JustTrynaHelp
dogememe
1995 Honda Accord 4cyl - to change fluids or not?
2
Replies
28
Views
2K
Gasbuggy
GON
Used a smoke machine for the first time
Replies
7
Views
1K
wtd
W
Duramax LML possible head gasket and piston issues
2
Replies
25
Views
6K
ElectroMechanoMan
Back
Top