debate of thinner oils

[ram_man]

Well i have been reading and though i know there are plenty of folks on here that know a lot more about oil than me i have to ask these questions.
1. Why do american cars use such thin oils while European cars generally are supposed to use thicker oil
2. Is the thinner oil really better for wear or is it just better for fuel economy
3. I understand engines clearances are tighter ect but aren't high dollar engines in Europe made with tighter specs as well but are still supposed to use thicker oils in respect to American cars.

 

[HerrStig]

One reason is the quest for the slightly better mileage thinner oil can provide. Another is that European cars are often driven harder and go for longer oil changes which can cause shear problems--- change of grade with use so thicker oil is often specified. What's interesting is the different recommendations for the same car in different countries. Synthetic oil can be thinner and hold up to heat, but the Germans, for example, have no speed limit Autobahn sections which are a real test of resistance to thinning with heat. If I lived in Texas where 85 mph limits are
found, and it gets hot, I'd be paying more attention to the European specifications.

 

[CT8]

EPA CAFE . Re read oil 101 then forget all of it.

 

[Pontual]

2.3k posts?

 

[ram_man]

I guess my main concern is how much is the thinner oil effecting our wear vs wear from countries that use higher viscosity oil

 

[camrydriver111]

Originally Posted By: ram_man
I guess my main concern is how much is the thinner oil effecting our wear vs wear from countries that use higher viscosity oil


From the UOAs the thin oils seem to do just fine.

Other countries may also use long OCIs up to 20k mi so they may actually have higher wear.

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Originally Posted By: ram_man
I guess my main concern is how much is the thinner oil effecting our wear vs wear from countries that use higher viscosity oil


From the UOAs the thin oils seem to do just fine.

Other countries may also use long OCIs up to 20k mi so they may actually have higher wear.


UOA does not measure wear.

 

[camrydriver111]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Originally Posted By: ram_man
I guess my main concern is how much is the thinner oil effecting our wear vs wear from countries that use higher viscosity oil


From the UOAs the thin oils seem to do just fine.

Other countries may also use long OCIs up to 20k mi so they may actually have higher wear.


UOA does not measure wear.


When there is wear inside an engine and material is worn away where does it go?

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: ram_man
I guess my main concern is how much is the thinner oil effecting our wear vs wear from countries that use higher viscosity oil
The engines seem to last just fine.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Well, this for a reference point....

Detroit Diesel is factory filling their engines with 10w30 as opposed to the normal 15w40 that has been used for years. And they are recommending 50,000 mile oil changes. Chevron has taken their 10w30 to over 70,000 in these same motors before any noticeable degradation of the oil. No bypass filter.

All of the major heavy engine makers are on the same sheet of music... factory filling and recommending 10w30, year round, from the Rio Grande to well into Canada, from coast to coast, deserts, mountains, everything, and moving 80,000 lb.

Seems to be working just fine. Not sure why lower vis oils should cause anyone any concern when used in a motor that it is recommended for. The 20's in most of the current auto/pickup motors should do a great job over time. I never really give much thought to what Europe does. They have their own reasonings for what they do.

 

[gregk24]

Originally Posted By: ram_man
I guess my main concern is how much is the thinner oil effecting our wear vs wear from countries that use higher viscosity oil


Just trust the manufacturers recommendation. How many engines blow due to following the manufacturers recommended oil grade and OCI...probably not many.

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Well, this for a reference point....

Detroit Diesel is factory filling their engines with 10w30 as opposed to the normal 15w40 that has been used for years. And they are recommending 50,000 mile oil changes. Chevron has taken their 10w30 to over 70,000 in these same motors before any noticeable degradation of the oil. No bypass filter.

All of the major heavy engine makers are on the same sheet of music... factory filling and recommending 10w30, year round, from the Rio Grande to well into Canada, from coast to coast, deserts, mountains, everything, and moving 80,000 lb.

Seems to be working just fine. Not sure why lower vis oils should cause anyone any concern when used in a motor that it is recommended for. The 20's in most of the current auto/pickup motors should do a great job over time. I never really give much thought to what Europe does. They have their own reasonings for what they do.
I am sure the engines are better controlled these days with more precise injection and timing as well as better oil and filtration and temperature control.. The best thing that ever happened to Gasoline engines was the elimination of lead from the gas then electronic fuel injection.

 

[kr_bitog]

1. CAFE, better fuel economy. US car mostly comes with autobox and the speed limit is lower.
Most Europe car still have manual transmission that put more strain to engine if the gear change is not smooth.


2. In high-rev new engine thin is better as long as the viscosity holds up (no HTHS drop)

3. Long distance high speed driving is common in Europe, and most of their engine is small displacement, so thicker oil give better tolerance when it thins out before it is burnt.

Originally Posted By: ram_man
Well i have been reading and though i know there are plenty of folks on here that know a lot more about oil than me i have to ask these questions.
1. Why do american cars use such thin oils while European cars generally are supposed to use thicker oil
2. Is the thinner oil really better for wear or is it just better for fuel economy
3. I understand engines clearances are tighter ect but aren't high dollar engines in Europe made with tighter specs as well but are still supposed to use thicker oils in respect to American cars.

 

[mjoekingz28]

TT,

In these new OTR rigs, are they generally consuming more oil? Like having to add two gallons in the first 50k miles of its life? Are they doing better than the ones that 'were' specced 15w-40 in the past. Also, does DEF matter any?

 

[mjoekingz28]

I think the question should be is, what happened to 5w-20 to begin with. I didnt really know it existed until like 2008 or so, then I was using an old metal blade edger and saw it specced 5w-20 in winter.

So, here comes 5w-20 in like the 1950s...,then I think Mobil1 did some work with it in the 70s,,,,,,nothing nada, ,,,,,,,keep looking,,,,, 2000 something it is back and some folks (Ford to name one) back specced it for some of their 90s models. Just wondering how it was forgotton now everyone seems to be on the bandwagon bigtime and all of a sudden.



Btw, my 1.3 I-4 I usually ran 10w-30 in, I was at the dealer and got some 5w-20 to use in like 2007 and it ran quite nice. I remember looking at their only two oils.....5w-20 and 15w-40 and I was dumbfounded but luckily got the 20wt. Pre BITOGer btw

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Originally Posted By: ram_man
I guess my main concern is how much is the thinner oil effecting our wear vs wear from countries that use higher viscosity oil


From the UOAs the thin oils seem to do just fine.

Other countries may also use long OCIs up to 20k mi so they may actually have higher wear.


UOA does not measure wear.


When there is wear inside an engine and material is worn away where does it go?


For one some collects in the filter. Two, the analytical methods do not measure all of the particle sizes in the oil. So no, UOA does not wear give rate. This seems to need to be explained constantly on this site. Lastly, the amount of data needed to compare two oils on even the same engine type is beyond looking at UOAs on the web.

 

[Merkava_4]

Thinner oils are easier to pump through the engine but don't lubricate as well as thicker oils.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
I think the question should be is, what happened to 5w-20 to begin with. I didnt really know it existed until like 2008 or so, then I was using an old metal blade edger and saw it specced 5w-20 in winter.

So, here comes 5w-20 in like the 1950s...,then I think Mobil1 did some work with it in the 70s,,,,,,nothing nada, ,,,,,,,keep looking,,,,, 2000 something it is back and some folks (Ford to name one) back specced it for some of their 90s models. Just wondering how it was forgotton now everyone seems to be on the bandwagon bigtime and all of a sudden.


It was there, I posted a link
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3860328/1961_5W20_patent...#Post3860328

to a 1961 patent, that shows what sort of issues they were having with it.

It is a completely different animal to the 5W20s today, in spite of what proponents of an agenda would have you believe.

e.g. the Datsun 510s DID specify 5W20, but only under 10F, while 10W30 was good for under 10F, all the way to "over 90"...10W was rated for a higher temperature than the early 5W20s by Datsun.

 

[RedOakRanch]

I have an old CAT diesel that I run 15w40 in. The manual says to use 10 20 or 30 grade oil depending on the temp. No 40 was even mentioned. It also gave ratios for cutting the oil with kerosine in cold weather, talk about fuel dilution!

 

[MuzzleFlash40]

Deleted, posted in the wrong thread