David Koresh - Waco on Netflix

[Fla]

Sure - see the list I posted of those they did arrest … Just a matter of time …

This list? List of religious leaders convicted of crimes

Maybe I missed it but I don't see any of the Branch Dravidians on that list. I know that some of them were arrested after the fire for various charges but as I recall they were all found Not Guilty of the charges connected to the reasons that the FBI gave for attacking their compound in the first place.

It would be an interesting exercise to make a list of the people that survived the fire and what they were later charged with. And what charges they were eventually convicted of. I'd like to know if anyone thinks that any of those later convictions justifies the death of 76 people.

 

[leadcounsel]

I'd like to know if anyone thinks that any of those later convictions justifies the death of 76 people.

I'm a trial attorney (former prosecutor and magistrate), Army combat vet, and liberty minded person.

The answer is a resounding "NO." None of this was justified in a free nation, based on paltry weak allegations of this or that which had been investigated and unfounded. At worst, at the very worst, there was (unconfirmed) allegations of some harsh corporal punishment, and some underaged girls (by MODERN STANDARDS) being married off.

The feds killed like 77 people in gunfire and arson over this. It cost taxpayers millions of dollars, and the secondary result was the OKC bombing, which was in retaliation, killing triple digit numbers and costing millions more dollars...

I find it particularly weird. "We're the government, here to save you." They open gunfire and almost certainly caused a fire or aided it, killing most of those inside. Totally amateur and nutty. Imagine if civilians did this. They'd hang.

Because a boy was spanked with a stick, and young girls were married off, and people were exercising 1A and 2A rights. The HORROR....

EDIT: The "convictions" were basically firearms used in self defense type convictions. Complete hogwash. The Feds illegally raided them and they fought back.

 

[leadcounsel]

This deserves a separate post. Read it slowly.

About 77 people, men, women, kids, were killed by the Feds, in this standoff. On allegations of they didn't color between the lines. I want readers to read this aloud. "The Feds killed 25 children."

Okay so who is the true bad actor here? Just think about that.

 

[Dinoburner]

My takeaway at the time was the govt. could have waited them out. Closed all supply lines and continued communication. What is most scary is it could happen again not nessessarily against religous cults.

 

[WeyounDS9]

I would like some clear evidence on whether or not he (and possibly other males) were abusing girls. I think if that was going on, the other males of anything close to adult age should have been dealt with for allowing that to go on.

That was invenetd after the fact for damge control with middle america.
Nothing in the original warrant alleged any of this.

 

[ozric]

That was invenetd after the fact for damge control with middle america.
Nothing in the original warrant alleged any of this.

Yep. Reno was caught with her slacks down, and they created quite a bit of propaganda to turn public opinion and try to save face.

 

[leadcounsel]

My takeaway at the time was the govt. could have waited them out. Closed all supply lines and continued communication.

Or, they apparently could have grabbed the leader off campus with no effort/risk.

Or, given investigations found no evidence of harm to minors, and the alleged gun violations are not really violations in the spirit of the 2A, pretty much ignored it....

I do apologize. I come from a interpretation of liberty in the Bill of Rights. I actually believe people should generally be left alone and free, and that antiquated belief system, unless actually harming others... I think there was NEVER any evidence of true harm to others.

The only people illegally murdering others, was the feds in that standoff. The Davidians were just defending themselves.

 

[ATex7239]

Or, they apparently could have grabbed the leader off campus with no effort/risk.

Or, given investigations found no evidence of harm to minors, and the alleged gun violations are not really violations in the spirit of the 2A, pretty much ignored it....

I do apologize. I come from a interpretation of liberty in the Bill of Rights. I actually believe people should generally be left alone and free, and that antiquated belief system, unless actually harming others... I think there was NEVER any evidence of true harm to others.

The only people illegally murdering others, was the feds in that standoff. The Davidians were just defending themselves.

Agree with all but that last sentence. The problem with the last sentence is you shouldn’t “defend yourself” with guns from being arrested under a rule of law situation. The Bill of Rights also has due process, peaceful protest, the right to legal council, bail, etc. The Founders knew we needed a way to fight the system from a legal standpoint as well so we could have a civilized society. It can’t be all bang-bang, all the time. If one is being unjustly arrested and unjustly charged with crimes then the fighting takes place in court. That is how our society works and the Davidian don’t get to make up their own rules on this. The 2nd is not there cause you don’t feel like being arrested today. My comments in no way excuses the Feds actions. But I think conflating the last sentence with the other parts of your post is incorrect.

 

[billt460]

I can see both sides of this issue. And there is / was plenty of blame to go around. Common sense was sorely lacking on both sides. First off was Koresh's decision to shoot at Federal agents when they arrived. Stupid on steroids. He knew who they were.

The fact is he was tipped off, and knew they were coming. And the ATF knew that he knew as well. So.... Plenty of stupid to go around on both sides there.

The smart play for Koresh would have been to first inform the media, (which he had access to), then have everybody outside with their hands up when they arrived. Women, kids, everyone. Let the agents do their thing, and make your fight in the courtroom, NOT the compound. Attorneys would have lined up to take his case pro bono.

Both he and the Branch Davidians would have won big time in both the courtroom, as well as in the court of public opinion. No one likes to see armed Federal agents in ninja suits picking on women and kids peacefully surrendering.

It most likely would have all ended with the Davidians winning a big civil suit. They could have built a whole new compound with the money..... Instead of having theirs burn down with them in it.

Both sides had time on their sides, and it was dumb on the Feds part to go in with tanks and tear gas. They lost their patients. That was the equivalent of a cop pushing an old lady down the stairs...... On national television.

You can look at this whole thing with a ton of, "whataboutism". But the fact remains that both sides made the worst play possible. And everyone involved paid the price. The Davidians more so because they're all dead.

 

[Strommen95]

The law had plenty of screw ups throughout Waco. However, the Davidians, in particular their leader are the ones primarily responsible for all deaths. If you want to battle the law, you wait for your day in court. Engaging law enforcement with guns and killing LEO's is not the way to go about it. As soon as they shot at law enforcement, they made their bed.

As said, law enforcement could've made better choices at various points. The Davidians were still a victim of their own stupidity more than anything though. After 51 days, it's quite clear those who remained and perished in the fire were never going to come out. Some people are beyond reproach. Evidence strongly shows the Davidians started the fire too.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

There are some free videos on YouTube since I'm almost 100% certain I don't have a Netflix subscription.. I have a Roku TV and just open up YouTube on my phone and beam it, most of the time. And if it's not free I don't watch it. Imagine that.

I was about 11 when this all happened and I remember this as after Desert Storm and before OJ. I remember the "Waco Texas shoot-out" as a kid.

Now, as an adult.. I believe the ATF fired first.

Would I get into trouble for linking the freely available YouTube "documentaries" in this thread? One I watched last night interviewed the UPS driver that delivered most/all of the weapons (the guy that got scared reckless when the grenades fell out of a box) and also made the case that he was a pedophile. There also was a rancher that says he saw them dressed up in camo gear shooting human silhouette targets with the "distinctive sound of a .50-cal machine gun" which he said made him quietly tip off the Sheriff's.

Texas.. I honestly admire how free you all are, that is how America should be IMHO however I think maybe the ATF and FBI messed it up. "Assault weapons bill" was being talked about? Thats all I can really say.....

 

[thastinger]

Back then, a Barrett .50cal wasn't a whole lot of money...maybe $1-2k...

But "back then" and brand new midgrade car was 13.5K also

 

[thastinger]

The timing is odd that there will be another documentary coming out from ITV on the same subject. A member of our Camaro club loaned out his '68 Camaro for the show. Apparently Koresh had a 1st gen Camaro.

It was very interesting to get my friend's perspective on the behind the scenes making of the show and how they took care of his car.

Ranchero according to the documentary

 

[tyman]

But "back then" and brand new midgrade car was 13.5K also

Exactly

 

[billt460]

Back then, a Barrett .50cal wasn't a whole lot of money...maybe $1-2k...

Not even close. In the 1993 Gun Digest, (the same year Waco happened), a Barrett Light .50 Model 82 A-1 semi auto .50 BMG rifle listed for $6,750.00.

 

[tyman]

Not even close. In the 1993 Gun Digest, (the same year Waco happened), a Barrett Light .50 Model 82 A-1 semi auto .50 BMG rifle listed for $6,750.00.

I was clearly referencing Mozambique bread loaves. /slap

 

[ozric]

However, the Davidians, in particular their leader are the ones primarily responsible for all deaths. If you want to battle the law, you wait for your day in court. Engaging law enforcement with guns and killing LEO's is not the way to go about it. As soon as they shot at law enforcement, they made their bed.

Not really. The Feds wanted a confrontation. They proved it when they ignored the sheriff's plan of arresting Koresh alone in town.

You had a cult who believed the Feds were going to attack and kill them all. Instead of handling it peacefully, the Feds stormed the compound, knowing exactly what would happen. And once it started, the Feds were happy to kill them all. There was clear infrared video of at least one tank using a flamethrower to start the fire. After that, the Davidians would hardly consider surrendering.

 

[Strommen95]

Not really. The Feds wanted a confrontation. They proved it when they ignored the sheriff's plan of arresting Koresh alone in town.

You had a cult who believed the Feds were going to attack and kill them all. Instead of handling it peacefully, the Feds stormed the compound, knowing exactly what would happen. And once it started, the Feds were happy to kill them all. There was clear infrared video of at least one tank using a flamethrower to start the fire. After that, the Davidians would hardly consider surrendering.

The Feds screwed up big time. That doesn't warrant the cult shooting at them. It doesn't make the cult members any less stupid for believing they came there for the sole purpose of killing them either. They were victims of their own stupidity and nothing more.

Please post that infrared video of the Feds starting the fire. Considering that was 51 days after the confrontation started, that's a pretty silly excuse for not surrendering.

 

[loneryder]

I was off from work that day and watched the whole thing unfold live on television and IMO the FBI's actions were murder, just plain murder, not just of David K but along with 75 other people. The basic question that I'm still asking in how do you justify with killing 76 people including numerous children in the name of stopping one alleged child abuser?

The local county sheriff told a completely different story than the FBI did. He had heard of the alleged gun violations and the alleged child abuse and had already been out to visit David K and the Branch Davidians (more than once IIRC) and did examine their guns and interviewed people concerning child abuse and he found nothing to substantiate those accusations. David was a licensed gun dealer that sold guns at shows to help fund the Branch Davidians which is one reaon why he had so many guns on hand. As a licensed dealer, the ATF could have gone into his premises at any time and examined his inventory of guns. The FBI "raid" was a created-for-TV news stunt that was bad planned and that back fired spectacularly.

Janet and that administration created a modern Witch Hunt looking for alleged "child abusers", even before Waco.

They were marrying teen girls. I think that is what the Feds used to call it child abuse.

 

[loneryder]

The law had plenty of screw ups throughout Waco. However, the Davidians, in particular their leader are the ones primarily responsible for all deaths. If you want to battle the law, you wait for your day in court. Engaging law enforcement with guns and killing LEO's is not the way to go about it. As soon as they shot at law enforcement, they made their bed.

As said, law enforcement could've made better choices at various points. The Davidians were still a victim of their own stupidity more than anything though. After 51 days, it's quite clear those who remained and perished in the fire were never going to come out. Some people are beyond reproach. Evidence strongly shows the Davidians started the fire too.

How can you say this today. The Feds have thrown people in jail without bail for misdemeanors. They are holding them indefinitely without court hearings or attorney visits to this day. And Congress doesn't seem able to do anything about it. You have no rights anymore so steer clear of the Feds and LE.