Dangerous passing stunt on two lane road

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Wife and I were driving on a two lane road not far from our house in Delaware. We saw a car coming the other direction and then a pickup going pretty fast trying to pass that car and now in our lane just in front of us. Normally you would think the idiot would end up seeing us and would pull back in and end the passing stunt. Not this guy. We had to pull into the shoulder so all three vehicles could fit on a two lane road.

Ten seconds later we saw two DSP hauling ass after the pickup. He was obviously trying to evade the police and get away at any cost.

Lesson learned is don't assume a guy doing a dangerous passing stunt will back down once he sees a car going the opposite direction. This guy was going to risk hitting us to get away from the DSP.
 
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One thing I've learned about being in a situation like this, if some maniac is going to dangerously try to pass, let off the gas and move to the right as much as you can so they can get their stupid maneuver done as quickly as possible. You never know who is coming up in oncoming traffic. I really don't like driving on undivided two way roads at high speeds.
 
Traveling down I10 this past Labor Day, traffic was moderately heavy. I stay in the outside lane except when passing (that's the unenforced law in Florida) and when approaching a slow moving vehicle (usually a truck or camper) in the outside lane I ease into the inside lane to pass. There are usually cars already in the inside lane so you have to plan your move early or wait for an opening. What seemed to happen frequently was cars would come down the outside lane at a high rate of speed and cut into the inside lane at the last moment, then hit the brakes to keep from hitting the vehicle in front of them. If they cut in front of you, you would also have to hit your brakes. Then it seemed like everyone was tailgating at one or two car lengths at 80 mph to keep these guys from cutting in. I used to see this happen occasionally but this day it happened a lot.
 
One thing I've learned about being in a situation like this, if some maniac is going to dangerously try to pass, let off the gas and move to the right as much as you can so they can get their stupid maneuver done as quickly as possible. You never know who is coming up in oncoming traffic. I really don't like driving on undivided two way roads at high speeds.
Absolutely. Give way, slow down, get away from hazardous situations. That's what being a decent citizen, an adult, a responsible person is about. It's so easy for road situations to get out of control. You may save your own life or others.
 
I told my kids when teaching them how to drive. It's the idiot in lane coming at you that is trying to kill you. Doesn't matter who it is. Anything can make them yank the steering wheel to the left. This applies to interstates too, unless they have a 4' or taller median divider.
 
You never know what the guy coming at you has for a story. His gas pedal could be stuck, no brakes. Could be in a diabetic coma. Graveyards are full of people who were "right."
 
That’s why police should be forbidden to chance after a vehicle, unless it’s extreme situation, like murder, kidnapping etc.
This guy was probably fleeing from a traffic violation.
In several states, fleeing in a vehicle is a felony, hence the chase is reasonable. The logic being that a "normal" person who had a minor traffic violation would pull over. Anyone who "flees" as a felon is worthy of chasing. They are fleeing for a reason; we just may not know what that reason is until we make contact with the person. While the initial instigation may have been a traffic violation, no sane person flees from a ticket. They flee because they are DWS, DUI, have a warrant, are holding/transporting drugs, are illegally in possession of a firearm, etc .... Your logic stops when the logical trail would lead further. People flee because there is some consequence much worse than a ticket waiting for them. In all the pursuits I was personally involved in, not one suspect fled because of the minor civil offense they committed (running a stop sign; taillight out; expired plates ...). They all fled because they had a criminal offense present or warrant out for their arrest.

I am obviously biased, but I don't think that giving up is anything but a means of emboldening the criminal. Need proof? Just look at the municipalities which have taken a "hands off" approach to prosecution ... looting in broad daylight, urination and defecation in public, etc. People will get away with what you let them get away with. If we didn't pursue people, there would never be any caught. Why would anyone (even a minor offender) ever pull over if they knew the cops would not chase them?

I'm not saying LEOs should chase people with reckless abandon; far from it. I do not advocate for LEOs just Hades-bent to floor it at all costs. But good training, good skills, good policy all can come together to make for smart and effective pursuits. At my agency, we spent about as much time training in EVOC (emergency vehicle operations course) as we did with firearms. We had good, clear policies for when to terminate a pursuit.

IMO it's not reasonable to blame LEOs for the bad and dangerous decisions of the criminals they pursue. That's no different than blaming guns for the actions of the shooters.
 
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The best answer for bad driving is you are not right and can hold your own , instead let the “offender” go by and live to enjoy the next moment. Also visit to body shop is just a pure hassle no matter who is right or at fault.

Glad you are back here to post!
 
That’s why police should be forbidden to chance after a vehicle, unless it’s extreme situation, like murder, kidnapping etc.
This guy was probably fleeing from a traffic violation.

Rather presumptive but maybe you have a knowledge of Donald's event not even he does.
 
About a year ago I was driving on a high-volume two-lane when I noticed the guy in front of me drifting left into the oncoming lane. I backed way off as an oncoming minivan veered into my lane to avoid the jackass. An oncoming pickup didn't have an escape route and slammed into vehicle #1 (a Ford Explorer) head-on.

The Explorer went sideways after the impact and rolled onto its roof in a ditch. The guy in the pickup exited his truck as I was pulling over and appeared unhurt. I and a couple other witnesses got to the Explorer and found the driver's door was jammed but the driver was OK. We eventually helped him exit through the passenger side.

The guy didn't seem impaired. I guess he was just inattentive, playing with his phone or the radio or who knows. I was impressed that people could walk away from a crash like that -- if one of the vehicles was a subcompact I fear the results would have been much worse.
 
IMO it's not reasonable to blame LEOs for the bad and dangerous decisions of the criminals they pursue. That's no different than blaming guns for the actions of the shooters.

It absolutely is because LEOs are be trained to assess the danger such a pursuit presents to the law abiding citizens.
So let’s say the guy was speeding. Who is the injured party in such an incident that requires a LEO to pursue? But we have Terry vs Ohio so the cop can dream up all sorts of what ifs, like you did above.
You have body cams, you have vehicle cams. The guy could be tracked down.

But most states grant cops immunity, so we have reckless pursuits that endanger everyone just to satisfy some “what if” scenario in cops mind.
 
Had a guy coming right at us at night on the interstate. The other guy was going the wrong way and it was at night. All at once he turned on his lights and we almost had a head on collision. My little brother and I still talk about that. What an idiot and it's good you didn't get hurt OP. There are some crazy people on the roads especially if drugs or alcohol are involved.
 
It absolutely is because LEOs are be trained to assess the danger such a pursuit presents to the law abiding citizens.
So let’s say the guy was speeding. Who is the injured party in such an incident that requires a LEO to pursue? But we have Terry vs Ohio so the cop can dream up all sorts of what ifs, like you did above.
You have body cams, you have vehicle cams. The guy could be tracked down.

But most states grant cops immunity, so we have reckless pursuits that endanger everyone just to satisfy some “what if” scenario in cops mind.

If we see a vehicle commit a traffic violation, we don't always know the license number until we can get reasonably close and read the plate; this is because we may not be able to see it due to directional or speed differences. And even if we did know the plate number, there's no assurance the registered owner of the vehicle is the person operating the vehicle during the violation. If we didn't pursue, there's no way to know who was driving at the time of the infraction. In fact, if it were a stolen vehicle, we may be able to make a reasonable determination for a stop based on vehicle description, but have zero idea who's driving. By definition a stolen vehicle is typically in possession of someone OTHER THAN THE OWNER. So if we didn't pursue the vehicle AT THAT TIME, then the felon who stole it would get away without ever being identified. Hence your theory of "tracking the guy down" is moot; you can't find someone you can't identify in the first place. BWCs and ICCs cannot ID a person; they can only record visual evidence.

Just what does Terry have to do with this, anyway? Terry is about the physical search of a person (and immediate area) relative to officer safety, when an officer can articulate a "reasonable suspicion" of crime element(s) to further an investigation. You are conflating topics for the sake of your strained argument.
* reasonable suspicion leads to detentions
* probable cause leads to arrests

Scenario 1:
- Driver commits a traffic violation (speeding 68mph in a 60mph zone); no other violations or suspicions are known to the officer at the time.
- Officer follows and initiates lights; car pulls over to side of road.
- Driver presents valid ID; officer runs ID and registration and all checks out OK; officer issues warning or citation (his/her discretion).
- Driver is released from scene with no search
In this scenario, there's no "Terry stop" pretense because a CRIME was not committed. Terry conceptually only applies if there is reasonable suspicion that a CRIME has been committed (not a civil infraction; typical traffic offense). Hence your objection is based on false reasoning. TERRY DOES NOT APPLY HERE.

Scenario 2:
- Driver commits the same speeding violation; officer is not aware of any other violation just as above.
- Officer turns and follows and initiates lights; car does NOT pull over, and instead accelerates and flees.
Now things are completely different. In most states, fleeing in a vehicle is a felony, so right there the officer sees a felony committed in his presence. If the vehicle is eventually contained and driver caught, the person is charged with a crime. At this point, the arrest is based on probable cause and therefore search incident to arrest is valid. TERRY DOES NOT APPLY HERE.


Terry is not, in and of itself, reasonable suspicion to pull someone over. Terry is the process to ensure safety IF AND ONLY IF there is suspicion of a crime (past, current, imminent future). Reasonable suspicion is the traffic infraction itself; witnessed by the officer. In scenario 1 above, the only time Terry would apply is if the initial reason for the stop was then supplemented by further information. Say for example the driver opened the door and he/she reeked of burning marijuana or alcoholic beverages. Then the additional intel would lead to a Terry stop; the driver could then be searched because the potential for a criminal charge is now credible.


I don't disagree that some cops dangerously pursue criminals; it happens. We have civil and criminal options to address these issues. But to say LEOs should (almost) never pursue a vehicle is a farce IMO. As I said above, you cannot "track someone down" later if you have no idea who they are in the first place, and the ONLY way to do that is to catch them at the time.
 
In my final year in high school one of my classmates left early to go "make big money on the rigs". He soon bought a beautiful car, a (lightly used) baby blue '63 Ford Galaxie 500 XL convertible with a white top. Gorgeous car.

A few months later he turned up with the car a mess, the sheet metal either dented or missing on both sides. He had been passing someone on a 2 lane highway and another vehicle pulled into the oncoming lane from a side road. He went between the car he was passing and the oncoming car and was sandwiched, heavily damaging both sides. No-one was injured but the car was a write off.

So who won that game of chicken?
 
In several states, fleeing in a vehicle is a felony, hence the chase is reasonable. The logic being that a "normal" person who had a minor traffic violation would pull over. Anyone who "flees" as a felon is worthy of chasing. They are fleeing for a reason; we just may not know what that reason is until we make contact with the person. While the initial instigation may have been a traffic violation, no sane person flees from a ticket. They flee because they are DWS, DUI, have a warrant, are holding/transporting drugs, are illegally in possession of a firearm, etc .... Your logic stops when the logical trail would lead further. People flee because there is some consequence much worse than a ticket waiting for them. In all the pursuits I was personally involved in, not one suspect fled because of the minor civil offense they committed (running a stop sign; taillight out; expired plates ...). They all fled because they had a criminal offense present or warrant out for their arrest.

I am obviously biased, but I don't think that giving up is anything but a means of emboldening the criminal. Need proof? Just look at the municipalities which have taken a "hands off" approach to prosecution ... looting in broad daylight, urination and defecation in public, etc. People will get away with what you let them get away with. If we didn't pursue people, there would never be any caught. Why would anyone (even a minor offender) ever pull over if they knew the cops would not chase them?

I'm not saying LEOs should chase people with reckless abandon; far from it. I do not advocate for LEOs just Hades-bent to floor it at all costs. But good training, good skills, good policy all can come together to make for smart and effective pursuits. At my agency, we spent about as much time training in EVOC (emergency vehicle operations course) as we did with firearms. We had good, clear policies for when to terminate a pursuit.

IMO it's not reasonable to blame LEOs for the bad and dangerous decisions of the criminals they pursue. That's no different than blaming guns for the actions of the shooters.
No disrespect but I disagree completely. Even if you knew they were a insane and convicted murderer with a trunk full of smack, chasing them down a two lane with heavy traffic is far too strong a risk. The US military has more strict rules of engagement in hostile territory with enemies literally trying to kill them at that moment.

Comparing it choosing not to prosecute is disingenuous - that is simply a political choice after the fact - not a safety at the moment issue. Its not the same as blaming the gun vs the shooter. The gun has no choice but to go off. The LEO can lift, radio in, BOLO, call in air if available, etc.

If you had specific knowledge of a trunk full of explosives and he was on the way to a school then maybe. Or he might have 10 lbs of weed and is behind in child support and of no immediate danger to the public. Adrenaline filled stupid people aren;t known to act rationally, which is why the LEO has to.
 
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If we see a vehicle commit a traffic violation, we don't always know the license number until we can get reasonably close and read the plate; this is because we may not be able to see it due to directional or speed differences. And even if we did know the plate number, there's no assurance the registered owner of the vehicle is the person operating the vehicle during the violation. If we didn't pursue, there's no way to know who was driving at the time of the infraction. In fact, if it were a stolen vehicle, we may be able to make a reasonable determination for a stop based on vehicle description, but have zero idea who's driving. By definition a stolen vehicle is typically in possession of someone OTHER THAN THE OWNER. So if we didn't pursue the vehicle AT THAT TIME, then the felon who stole it would get away without ever being identified. Hence your theory of "tracking the guy down" is moot; you can't find someone you can't identify in the first place. BWCs and ICCs cannot ID a person; they can only record visual evidence.
While it looks straightforward, the problem is people around that scenario. Too many departments are determined to stop fleeing vehicles at ANY cost because of what you mentioned earlier, that some other departments and cities let go offenders. Urination etc. do not have much to do with chases, but as usual, we go from one extreme to another. There are departments that are gutted in doing their work, and then there are those that are a bigger danger to the community than that fleeing felon, regardless of the motives of those LEO.
Doing pit maneuver like this, at 109mph is plain and simple dumb, and this is where this issue of stopping fleeing vehicle at any cost becomes debatable and why people have issues with it:
 
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