I think it is a waste to spend big money on oil filters!!! I use SuperTech filters unless they are all out then I use either AutoZone or Advanced AutoParts generic unless STP is on sale.$2.50 is my limit for an oil filter on my car. The filter on my 2003 Camry is so small I would not want to pack too much restrictive media inthe can! I think flow is more important then beta rateing. If I had my way I would have a stainless steel mesh screen like the old Volkswagons Bugs had. I do wish though that more companies but a nut on the end of the can like K&N does. I am considering use them just for the ease of filter removal.The only thing I hate about my Toyota is how ward it is to remove the filter.
Convince me why I should use a high-quality filter
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I think given an X budget for OC, better to get the good oil and basic filter. Say, semi-syn with basic filter vs conventional oil and fancy-boy filter. (assuming the cost comes in the same) This offers better performance and oci length.
Why use a premium oil filter?
(1) removing more wear causing particles = longer engine life.
The book "How to select a motor oil and filter for your car or truck" (very good/informative) from Noria Corporation (bookstore at www.noria.com), cites a GM study that showed that engine life can be increased 2.7 times by using an oil filter with a SAE J1858 efficiency rating of 98.7% for particles of 10 micron size as opposed to/compared to using an economy grade filter with an efficiency rating of 98.7% @ 40 microns (150,000 miles for 40 micron filtration vs. 405,000 miles for 10 micron filtration). Efficiency of the air filter is also very important. The Mobil 1 Extended Performance oil filter exceeds above recommendations with a SAE J1858 multi-pass efficiency rating of 99.2% @ 10 microns With less efficiency, the Puralator Pureone is 93.5% @ 10 microns. Efficiency of the Amsoil EA & Donaldson Endurance filters may be as good or better (they use a different efficiency testing method).
(2) Less oil flow restriction = less start up wear = longer engine life IF using synthetic nanofiber filter media (oil flow down to 35 degrees F vs 49 degrees F with conventional cellulose filter media )as in Amsoil EA & Donaldson Endurance oil filters.
(3) more capacity = longer service life.
Amsoil EA oil filters are guaranteed to remain effective for 25,000 miles or 1 year, whichever comes first, if used with Amsoil synthetic motor oils in normal service.
(1) removing more wear causing particles = longer engine life.
The book "How to select a motor oil and filter for your car or truck" (very good/informative) from Noria Corporation (bookstore at www.noria.com), cites a GM study that showed that engine life can be increased 2.7 times by using an oil filter with a SAE J1858 efficiency rating of 98.7% for particles of 10 micron size as opposed to/compared to using an economy grade filter with an efficiency rating of 98.7% @ 40 microns (150,000 miles for 40 micron filtration vs. 405,000 miles for 10 micron filtration). Efficiency of the air filter is also very important. The Mobil 1 Extended Performance oil filter exceeds above recommendations with a SAE J1858 multi-pass efficiency rating of 99.2% @ 10 microns With less efficiency, the Puralator Pureone is 93.5% @ 10 microns. Efficiency of the Amsoil EA & Donaldson Endurance filters may be as good or better (they use a different efficiency testing method).
(2) Less oil flow restriction = less start up wear = longer engine life IF using synthetic nanofiber filter media (oil flow down to 35 degrees F vs 49 degrees F with conventional cellulose filter media )as in Amsoil EA & Donaldson Endurance oil filters.
(3) more capacity = longer service life.
Amsoil EA oil filters are guaranteed to remain effective for 25,000 miles or 1 year, whichever comes first, if used with Amsoil synthetic motor oils in normal service.
Quote:
Thanks Bob. With that said, I might just grab a SuperTech and change it at every other oil change (per Honda's recommendations).
So, would it be better for me to use a SuperTech and change it at every oil change, or grab a PureOne or Napa Gold and change it at every other oil change as recommended?
This is quickly becoming my way of thinking recently. Especially after reading about the "no filter" run. Impressive. Either run the cheap one 5K miles or run the better ones to 10k.
What Khrapp. The young man asked a legitimate question and the only rationalization for your position was to impugn his request for justification as cheaping out - noble strategy. Even a ProLine or SuperTech at least meets or surpasses OEM requirments for recommended length of service and filtration efficiency, or the resulting repair is on Purolator's or Champion Lab's nickel. (Hint - they don't have to pay out very often.) Alternate spelling of "peace of mind": O-B-S-E-S-S-I-V-E - C-O-M-P-U-L-S-I-V-E
(Cha-Chinggg!...)
(Note to Michael - using the regular OEM grade aftermarket filters will result in reduced engine life, though. Maybe about twelve fewer miles.)
Your original argument is pointless if the quality filter is the same (or near the same) price. Look for quality filters on sale and stock up.
Personally, I use a new quality filter at every change (3 to 4K OCI), but that's just my preference.
Personally, I use a new quality filter at every change (3 to 4K OCI), but that's just my preference.
Trouble with a shade tree mechanic cutting open an oil filter is...
1- They usually only cut open the used ones.
2- Once they get it open, they really don't know what their looking at or for. Goodness there was "blue stuff in my used filter, what could it be". Or ...There was a a lot of metal in my filter after I cut it open with a dremmel tool.
3- If they open a new filter they have no way of testing the components that they find inside.
I could go on but what do I know?
But it keeps them off the streets and somewhat out of trouble, except with the significant other.
We have not seen better oil filtrationin terms of beta rateing or it's micron rateing for single and double pass amount to anything! We have not seen in the real world were better filtering creates less wear. In fact we have seen just the oposite in the real world. If the filter has too much media that is too fine the filter goes into bypass often! We also have seen were some filters that did not filter as well flowed much more oil at any given input presure so their is a presure drop associated with too fine of filtering media.Then we have the plethera of cut open filter that are prestine inside. I stand by my previous statement about your air filtration being much more critical then oil filtration. The only testing that shows improved filtering to be of any benifit for a gasoline automotive application is lab testing.Their are all kinds of lab results that just do not hold water in real world applications!Now if cars were putting the same levels of soot into their oil as diesels then I would agree with the the idea of reduced wear through oil filtration. Why do so many cars make it to 300,000 miles wearing the aotomic orange can of death if filtration is so important? Why did Bob's escort do so well with no filter at all?
If oil filters aren't necessary then why do motors have them? There MUST be some benefit to using an oil filter or I would imagine motors wouldn't require them.
I'm starting to think that the higher-end filters are sold for greater margin by the retailers, as the products may only be nominally better.
While at Wallyworld today, I notice that the price difference between the orange can and silver can (Tough guard) was about $0.50, depending on the part #. Seriously, what does $0.50 buy you these days....?
While at Wallyworld today, I notice that the price difference between the orange can and silver can (Tough guard) was about $0.50, depending on the part #. Seriously, what does $0.50 buy you these days....?
if you look, filters really dont do as much as people think imo. the oil on the other hand is a different subject. If you have big things in oil, I can see where a filter would be of value or should I say a really good one. but a really good one has more resriction( otherwise it cant filter a good) the cheap one can let more oil in a pass if you feel a filter is needed or you put things in your oil like dirt and whatever. I personally would just change if everytime. old cars didn't even have a filter on them. what do you think they did? to me, I use the cheapest fram on the market and just change is everytime myself. of couse I use the best oil. as you can see on my other posts, I used oil analysis on all this and this is why I do what I do.
bob
bob
As they say "Pay me now or pay me later."
Heck, let's go all the way and use NO FILTER, save even more ! THEN why change the OIL ? This will REALLY ADD-UP on savings.
OH, you're concerned about engine wear ? That's the Point.
How much do you want to spend on how much engine wear.
Generally I try for the BEST "least expensive" solution. But there are risks involved. I serviced a GM automatice transmission BETTER than mfg recommendation and I think it failed early due to under servicing, repair cost was $1700. I believe I could have prevented that by spending $100.
I serviced a Porsche 911 at HALF recommended OCI (I was doing 7500 instead of 15K). MISTAKE I've paid for by increased oil consumption. I'm now at 3000 mile OCI and things are stable. If I need to replace valve guides it will cost more than all the oil/filters I put in the car over 147K miles.
The question is "where is the cost/benefit curve". The curve is actaully a probablity distribution curve which entails uncertainty so you don't know exactly. For one application (new) I could use a Supertech for $1.99 or Motorcraft FL-820S at $2.38. MC for $0.39 is no brainer. But I could buy FL-820S elsewhere for $5 and that might change my preference. M1's or K&N's at $11-12, not in my application.
MC 5W30 blend at $2.29 vs Supertech 5W30 synth at $2.99 for a 5000 mile OCI ? I think I'll select the ST although both could get me to 200-300K on the engine. Then again I don't always make the right choice.
Heck, let's go all the way and use NO FILTER, save even more ! THEN why change the OIL ? This will REALLY ADD-UP on savings.
OH, you're concerned about engine wear ? That's the Point.
How much do you want to spend on how much engine wear.
Generally I try for the BEST "least expensive" solution. But there are risks involved. I serviced a GM automatice transmission BETTER than mfg recommendation and I think it failed early due to under servicing, repair cost was $1700. I believe I could have prevented that by spending $100.
I serviced a Porsche 911 at HALF recommended OCI (I was doing 7500 instead of 15K). MISTAKE I've paid for by increased oil consumption. I'm now at 3000 mile OCI and things are stable. If I need to replace valve guides it will cost more than all the oil/filters I put in the car over 147K miles.
The question is "where is the cost/benefit curve". The curve is actaully a probablity distribution curve which entails uncertainty so you don't know exactly. For one application (new) I could use a Supertech for $1.99 or Motorcraft FL-820S at $2.38. MC for $0.39 is no brainer. But I could buy FL-820S elsewhere for $5 and that might change my preference. M1's or K&N's at $11-12, not in my application.
MC 5W30 blend at $2.29 vs Supertech 5W30 synth at $2.99 for a 5000 mile OCI ? I think I'll select the ST although both could get me to 200-300K on the engine. Then again I don't always make the right choice.
Hi Bob!
Talk about taking things completely out of context for your argument's sake!
I think Bob has shown pretty well via oil analysis that oil filters are not the end all be all of engine life.
price and value..............mutually exclusive concepts pretty much with the advent of marketing, especially with any consumer item. If you think..........let me rephrase that, if you FEEL that a 10 dollar oil filter is actually gonna get you 300,000 miles instead of 200,000 miles, then great! I've got a fuel line magnet I'd like to show you...
Boss, It is not about saveing money it is about wasteing money. The marginal return simply is not their for spending $10-$15 on a filter like Mobil-1 or Amsoil when it does not produce a a five fold reduction in wear as compared to a cheap generic oil filter. UOA tells us time and time again that poor airfilter performance hurts wear rates much more directly then oil filter performance. You failed to address how so many car's especialy say Toyota's and Honda's make it too 300,000 miles rather mundanely with 3000 mile oil changes and Fram oil filters or Jiffy Lube filter or Q-State fitlers wich are all rebadged Fram filters. We all know that Fram filters do not filter as well as even Walmart's or AutoZones filters wich are made by Champion Labs. Advanced brand is made by Puralator and also are made better then Fram. We have thousands of UOA with Fram,SuperTech,STP and other generic filters that show great wear numbers and low insolubles. We also have plenty of premium filter like M1,Amsoil,Baldwin,Hastings,Fleetguard etc... UOA on this site. What we do not see is any significant reduction in wear. We do sometimes see a difference in insolubles with the better filters though but it is not always present.
So your "Pay me now or Pay me Later!" statement really does not hold water in this particular instance! As a matter of fact I think that it is silly to enhance filter ability on a small filter. If one increase's the size of the filter and the surface area at the same time to account for the increase in filtering effecincy then I do not see a problem. Flow should always have priority over filtering on a full flow system.
So your "Pay me now or Pay me Later!" statement really does not hold water in this particular instance! As a matter of fact I think that it is silly to enhance filter ability on a small filter. If one increase's the size of the filter and the surface area at the same time to account for the increase in filtering effecincy then I do not see a problem. Flow should always have priority over filtering on a full flow system.
I won't try to convince you, but, I will tell you why I buy high quality filters. If I spend $20-30,000 (I know this is pocket change for some of you) on a vehicle I want the best filter available to protect my purchase, even if it cost a few dollars more.
Note the better oil flow during cold starts (Donaldson Endurance vs conventional cellulose filter media)--page 4:
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2111.pdf
Amsoil EA oil filters use same synthetic nanofiber filter media as Donaldson Endurance.
Here's how Amsoil EA oil filters provide less oil flow restriction with greater efficiency & higher contaminant holding capacity--page 4 & 5:
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2202.pdf
This synthetic nanofiber filter media is used by M-1 tanks in the desert--page 4:
http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/000165.pdf
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2111.pdf
Amsoil EA oil filters use same synthetic nanofiber filter media as Donaldson Endurance.
Here's how Amsoil EA oil filters provide less oil flow restriction with greater efficiency & higher contaminant holding capacity--page 4 & 5:
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2202.pdf
This synthetic nanofiber filter media is used by M-1 tanks in the desert--page 4:
http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/000165.pdf
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