Chevy 5.3 Plug wires

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
. . . The day that the manufacturers stop listing a resistance spec for plug wires, I'll stop checking them to see if they match spec.


Not trying to bust your chomps, but many modern ignition systems are designed around higher resistance secondaries.

4-7k ohms/ft is perfectly normal and by design for secondary cables in a modern GM HE ignition system.

If you go too low on the cable resistance, besides defeating their RF suppression, you can damage some ignition coils.

Again, on a HE distributorless system, with secondary wires under a foot, whether it's measuring 5kohms or 9kohms makes no meaningful difference.

I'd reserve the very low resistance ignition cables for coils designed for them.


1. Nobody I ever heard of is making low resistance plug wires for street cars that have caused any of the problems that you just described. Taylor wires are at 50 ohms per foot, no problems. GMS wires are at less than 5 ohms per foot, no problems.

2. Designed for them or not, dyno testing by manufacturers, mags, and personal users have shown low resistance wires create more horsepower and better drivability. Doesn't make a million horsepower more, but the difference is there. And yes, this has been proven on modern LS based V8 engines.

Now let's go through the checklist:

Easier starting: Check
Better fuel economy: Check
More power: Check

Theories are all well and good, but real world results trump them every time. Wire wound conductors are nothing new to the modern world of ignition systems, and they do the job well.


Please post a link to these dyno tests you mention.

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
. . .

Now let's go through the checklist:

. . .


You can rationalize your decision all you like, but it's fundamental electronics.

A suppression ignition cable is not there for laughs, or to be cheap. Together with the plug resistance, it's an extension of the coil's secondary winding design. In fact, it's sometimes more expensive to make a good suppression ignition cable than a solid core one.

Reduce the secondary resistance too low and you compromise the system's inductive reactance.

The serious RF and EMI consequences to modern engine control electronics of using low resistance non-suppression HV cables is a much broader issue I'll leave undiscussed.

Suffice it to say that premature OE coil pack failures from using excessively low resistance racing wires are more common than you think. Some Dodge SRT engines come immediately to mind, but there are others.

But more importantly, the factory ignition systems are very well-designed and run reliably and efficiently for 70 to 100k miles with very little maintenance.

Why you feel the need to "fix" them with out of spec aftermarket parts is beyond me. You're not going to add a single horsepower to a 5.3 Chevy truck engine with just low resistance racing wires.

Coupling very low resistance cables to upgraded performance coils, in a bona fide racing ignition setup, as I mentioned before, is an altogether different kettle of fish.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: Volvohead


You can rationalize your decision all you like, but it's fundamental electronics.


My new [censored] works better than my old [censored]. Is that fundamental enough for you?

Quote:
A suppression ignition cable is not there for laughs, or to be cheap. Together with the plug resistance, it's an extension of the coil's secondary winding design. In fact, it's sometimes more expensive to make a good suppression ignition cable than a solid core one.


How does this change the fact that my new wires work better than my old ones, and haven't resulted in any drawbacks what so ever?

Quote:
Reduce the secondary resistance too low and you compromise the system's inductive reactance.


Which hasn't happened here. I'm not seeing loads of people swearing off aftermarket street performance wires due to droves of coil failures either.

Quote:
The serious RF and EMI consequences to modern engine control electronics of using low resistance non-suppression HV cables is a much broader issue I'll leave undiscussed.


That's a good idea, because it's obviously not happening as much as you would like.

Quote:
Suffice it to say that premature OE coil pack failures from using excessively low resistance racing wires are more common than you think. Some Dodge SRT engines come immediately to mind, but there are others.


Who mentioned racing wires? Nobody has mentioned racing wires not one single time in this whole thread. I know I don't have racing wires in my car, and never recommended them to anyone.

Quote:
But more importantly, the factory ignition systems are very well-designed and run reliably and efficiently for 70 to 100k miles with very little maintenance.


My car has 140,000 miles on it, so what's your point?

Quote:
Why you feel the need to "fix" them with out of spec aftermarket parts is beyond me.


According to GM, so long as my wires have less than 2,000 ohms per foot of resistance, I'm golden. Where did you find where the spec set a minimum resistance for my car, because I'm not finding that anywhere.

Quote:
You're not going to add a single horsepower to a 5.3 Chevy truck engine with just low resistance racing wires.


Who said anything about racing wires, and when did I ever tell the OP to either replace his wires, or go with a different brand? I seem to recall telling him to check the resistance of his current wires and check the resistance and COMPARE THEM TO SPEC. I never even told him to replace his wires if they DON'T match spec. I merely congratulated him on getting the NGK's, which is what Delco rebadges anyway, shared my own experiences with ignition service, made exactly no recommendation as to what he should or should not do, and hit the post key. Now you're spelunking up my culo about how plug wires need to match a certain spec?

Well, the wires I have in my car are not racing wires, and they are spec, because there is not a minimum resistance set for wires on my car. So not only are they within spec, they're above grade.

Quote:
Coupling very low resistance cables to upgraded performance coils, in a bona fide racing ignition setup, as I mentioned before, is an altogether different kettle of fish.


When you get done wrasslin' with your straw man, maybe you can tend to your kettle of fish.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979


Please post a link to these dyno tests you mention.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQO77IeWIlg

http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-re...tock-wires.html

Granatelli has been posting these videos on different cars, again and again, under all sorts of conditions, putting himself out there on all of the forums for anyone to call [censored], and nobody has debunked it yet.

Stock LS7. Stock LS7 coils. Wires alone made a gain.

No Z06 owners crying and complaining about their coils dropping like flies, computers going haywire, or stereos sounding like a squawk box. Go figure.

 

[Trav]

Interesting reading.

http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/truth.htm

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
I use the MSD wires - great quality so not sure where the bad reviews of them came from. I run them on some of my other vehicles too.


They've had a few 'runs' of bad wires in the past (just as Taylor Thundervolts/409s have, and some of the Comp Cams and valve springs have had).
So people just take for granted that they are ALL bad, and cannot improve, and a bad 'net rep' starts and keeps going, and getting perpetuated over and over again.

(I do NOT agree with this attitude/belief myself, BTW.)

I love my supposedly very low resistance (never checked them myself) Moroso Ultra 40s with the full sheathing on them.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
. . . Good call on the NGK's. The Delco plugs are not what they used to be, and my engine runs alot better with both Delco products gone from my engine bay.


You know that quite a few AC plugs are re-branded NGKs.

As far as the wire resistance goes, that would be more meaningful 40 years ago on a breaker ignition. But on a modern high energy/HV system, particularly a short-lead distributorless one, those higher values don't make all that much of a difference. Terminal connection integrity and internal plug resistance usually play a bigger role in those systems.


EXCELLENT link, Trav.

I run an all GM fleet here. We are like Trav, wires get tossed when plugs get changed. We routinely run them far longer than recommended, typically going at least 150-200k miles on the OEM stuff. My last replacement was Autolite wires and NGK OEM spec plugs. We have not replaced an ignition coil in a very long time on any of our trucks.

I don't care what anyone says, I've had these engines on a dyno and used different plug wires and seen it first hand, if there's no misfiring there's no real hp. And I LIKE Andy Granatelli.

Most any modern car has a very robust ignition. Many cars even have a multi strike capability right out of the box. My point is that modern ignitions can spark off a pine log, when my plug wire is a few inches long or there's not even one at all there will never be much gain from a set of wires....

 

[DoubleWasp]

Which is what brought me to ohm a brand new set of AC Delco plug wires. They were causing a misfire that mysteriously went away with the replacement of the wires. Don't know whose garbage they are repackaging and sticking in those boxes, but it sure wasn't performing to "spec", unless misfire is how a GM engine is supposed to run.

The appearance of a long spark alone does not a proper ignition make. I have a video of a Vortec engine I was working on (factory wires), where the arc was powerful and long enough that I could hold the end of the wire an inch away from the distributor terminal, and it arced clear across, but as the wire got closer to the terminal, was causing such bad misfire that it was killing the engine. Insert completely into the terminal, and the engine shut down completely, and would not restart. Pull the wire an inch away, and it ran.

Replaced the factory wires, and the engine started and ran beautifully. That was a 260HP engine, so I guess I actually gained 260HP by changing out a set of factory wires.

 

[Trav]

IMHO the dyno test is flawed. He does a back to back run, lets the engine cool for a bit to swap the wires then does another run.
The oil has chance to heat up and thin out during that time and the block has had time to heat soak.

How about not changing the wire just wait the same amount of time and do the run again. I suspect they wont do it, it will probably gain 10 HP or whatever it was even without their 0 Ohm wires.
If GM engineers could make 10 HP more out of the $12K LS7 engine by just using a 0 Ohm wire and nothing more i believe they would have done it, but what do they know. LOL

 

[DoubleWasp]

The first 2 runs were within 1 HP of eachother. He proves the consistency. Back to back runs didn't make any difference. And an engine heat soaking on the dyno has never made more power in any test I have ever seen, so the later runs would be at a disadvantage, if anything.

Ask any Z06 owner who had their roof delaminate on their brand new car just how much Z06 engineers know.

Well I guess if GM engineers could make 15 more HP from a set of headers, they would have done it from the factory.......

Well I guess if GM engineers could make 30 more HP from a camshaft they would have done it from the factory........

Specious reasoning is awesome. These cars do not get the best performance parts from the factory. If the Z06 had all of the best stuff, there wouldn't be a ZR1.

 

[Trav]

So you just dismiss the oil being thinner due to operating temp? These wire made nothing that could not be explained away.
I should have said a block at operating temps not heat soaked (bard term on my part) but you don't see the engine temp on that monitor.

The parts you mention would add additional cost and stress to the engine as well as different tuning of the ecm. Plug wires would add very little or nothing as far as cost, free HP according to your links.

You don't think the LS7 gets the best parts from the factory? Speaking of ZR1 (you like to throw these names around for some reason) does the $26K LS9 use 0 Ohm wires?

LS7 Looks pretty low rent to me. LOL

Quote:
Specifications
Horsepower: 505 @ 6300 RPM
Torque: 470 ft/lbs @ 4800 RPM
Block: Cast Aluminum
Crankshaft: Forged Steel
Connecting Rods: Forged Titanium
Pistons: Hypereutectic Aluminum
Camshaft: Hydraulic Roller
Cylinder Heads: CNC-ported 70cc
Reluctor Wheel: 58X
Balanced: Internal
Compression Ratio: 11 to 1
Rocker Arms: 1.8 to 1 Offset (Intake only)

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Which is what brought me to ohm a brand new set of AC Delco plug wires. They were causing a misfire that mysteriously went away with the replacement of the wires. Don't know whose garbage they are repackaging and sticking in those boxes, but it sure wasn't performing to "spec", unless misfire is how a GM engine is supposed to run.


Totally agree with re-packaged junk. It's an epidemic now with chinese stuff and other junk.

But meager dyno gains and incremental efficiency claims from aftermarket companies are very sketchy IMO. I have a long history of modded up monsters in my driveway, and it has proven very hard to beat the OEMs at reliability. Easy as pie to raise power levels or alter driveability characterisics. But now make it last...

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: Trav
So you just dismiss the oil being thinner due to operating temp? These wire made nothing that could not be explained away.
I should have said a block at operating temps not heat soaked (bard term on my part) but you don't see the engine temp on that monitor.


Are you seriously going to tell me that an engine oil is going to get THAT much thinner sitting still, than it would be after being started, run through its gears under load, and completing a full throttle run in direct drive to redline, turning a load? To make 10HP difference all of its own? Or that an engine would not be up to operating temperature at that point? And throughout this process, temps stayed so consistently cool and the oil stayed so consistently thick that the second run was within 1 horsepower of the first? That has to be the most thermally stable engine and oil created under terrestrial terms.

Quote:
The parts you mention would add additional cost and stress to the engine as well as different tuning of the ecm. Plug wires would add very little or nothing as far as cost, free HP according to your links.


That's the price of having the BEST parts. So you just admitted that GM selects lower grade parts in the name of cost, and other factors.

How would you know what GM's cost would be to put in better plug wires, and how do you know that they would make it past accounting?

Quote:
You don't think the LS7 gets the best parts from the factory? Speaking of ZR1 (you like to throw these names around for some reason) does the $26K LS9 use 0 Ohm wires?


Does the LS9 use the LSX style block, with a 6-bolt cylinder heads that GM claims was "built for boost" every time they're selling one of those blocks?

No, I don't think it gets the best parts from the factory, because if it did, 505 HP would be the most that anyone could make from the LS7, and nobody would ever improve upon it, and we know that not to be the case. As you already mentioned, cost is a factor.

Quote:
LS7 Looks pretty low rent to me. LOL

Quote:
Specifications
Horsepower: 505 @ 6300 RPM
Torque: 470 ft/lbs @ 4800 RPM
Block: Cast Aluminum
Crankshaft: Forged Steel
Connecting Rods: Forged Titanium
Pistons: Hypereutectic Aluminum
Camshaft: Hydraulic Roller
Cylinder Heads: CNC-ported 70cc
Reluctor Wheel: 58X
Balanced: Internal
Compression Ratio: 11 to 1
Rocker Arms: 1.8 to 1 Offset (Intake only)




Aside from the materials used for the rods, and the use of CNC machining on the cylinder head ports, what exactly in the specs listed even remotely indicates that the big dollars have been thrown at this engine? I am not saying, and never said it was low rent, but it is by no means built of the best parts available out there, which is exactly why GM made the LSX blocks to better, and completely different standards.

The LS7 is good stuff, but the best? Hardly.

Cheap-[censored] stamped rockers
Sodium filled valves well-known to snap in two
No beehive valve springs, contributing to the exhaust valve snapping through float and snap

Shall we go on?

Where's the shaft mount rockers?
Where's the 6-bolt cylinder heads?

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


Totally agree with re-packaged junk. It's an epidemic now with chinese stuff and other junk.

But meager dyno gains and incremental efficiency claims from aftermarket companies are very sketchy IMO. I have a long history of modded up monsters in my driveway, and it has proven very hard to beat the OEMs at reliability. Easy as pie to raise power levels or alter driveability characterisics. But now make it last...


For the price they're charging for that stuff, I certainly expected better. I passed over everything that was available, because no Delco parts were in stock, and paid more money to get Delco parts. Delco air filters are definitely the filters to end all filters as far as I am concerned, so why not go with them for the rest of the parts? When I got my Delco cap and rotor out, the rotor contact looked like it had been scribbled on a piece of paper by a child, and then assembled by the proud mother using a kitchen knife and a hot glue gun. It was about half the size of the stock one, and resembled a Salvador Dali interpretation of a rotor contact. Delco cap? Cheap cast aluminum contacts. In a vented distributor, this is not exactly an ideal situation.

I went straight to the West Marine and bought the Sierra/Mercruiser cap and rotor. $8 cheaper, in stock, and full brass contacts. Rotor contact looked like a brass diving board compared to the glued-in aluminum piece of bacon in the Delco rotor.

Granted, aluminum is a superior conductor, for maybe the first hour of running, but once the aluminum oxide cuts in, that whole setup goes straight down the commode.

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Totally agree with re-packaged junk. It's an epidemic now with chinese stuff and other junk.


This is true.

AC Delco unfortunately offers two lines of parts for most consumables, including ignition wires, OE grade and Professional grade.

The OE line is Delco's factory replacement grade and is typically assembled in the US or Mexico. In most instances it is a repackaged dealer OE part and is the same part that GM originally fitted the vehicle with. They perform the same as OE parts, often ARE OE parts, carry a lifetime warranty, and on average cost 40-50% more than a Pro line part. When people say AC Delco, this is what comes to my mind. This, or the equivalent dealer factory part, is all we will order for underhood replacement parts on a GM vehicle. I expect, and get, factory performance from them.

The Pro line is their field/jobber replacement grade, and is made -- and sold -- all over the place. Lots of Chinese parts. This is not what GM built the vehicle with, and costs substantially less than an OE grade or dealer part. But people see the AC Delco name on the box and think they are getting a great deal. You get what you pay for.

For an NNBS 5.3 engine, a set of Delco OE grade wires goes for $55-60, pretty close to a discounted dealer price. A set of the Pro wires goes for about $35. Again, you get what you pay for.

Lots of people buy Delco Pro grade parts, have problems, and then trash the AC Delco brand and/or thereafter buy aftermarket parts (usually for the same price as the Delco OE parts cost).

Years ago, we would upgrade the performance of the breaker point systems with hotter coils, MSD components, and other tweaks, including solid and spiral core wires. But that opportunity for seriously improved spark performance no longer exists. Manufacturers don't cut corners on OE ignition systems anymore. They have too much of an impact on mileage and emissions system performance and longevity . . . and even lubrication intervals.

Trav's magnecor link pretty much echos my thoughts: the performance aftermarket wires are nice, but only if you have the supporting performance electronics. They add nothing meaningful to OE systems and can be detrimental to some.

I'll leave to others to debate the horsepower and other myths surrounding aftermarket performance ignition cables over OE, as I don't feeling like dealing with petulant posters today. Football awaits.

 

[spasm3]

My truck is an 03 with original wires at 63k miles. Should i change them due to age? What does is the best wire for this truck, sounds like delco is iffy. Napa belden is what i was considering. Are taylor wires really good?

 

[DoubleWasp]

Check the resistance of each wire using a multimeter, and compare it to spec. If it's within spec, don't worry about it. While you have them out, examine the boots for breakage, erosion, and heat damage. I wouldn't expect your wires to have gone south at 63k.

Another thing I like to do is to use a cheap circuit tester, ground it, and move the tip around the wire and boot. If something arcs out of the boot, I would consider replacing the wire. Arcs from the boots/wires to other wires can cause major or subtle misfire.

If resistance and condition are good, run them.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Which is a fine way of not finishing what you started. Kthxbye.

 

[Trav]

You are the one posting about free HP from0 ohm wires which is total nonsense.
Many snake oil manufacturers use dyno test to prove this that and the other, we have all seen it xx more HP if you use this and that.
How much time between the last run and the one they post the HP increase? You don't know, they don't say and it does make a difference.

I see you either don't know what the LS9 has for wires or choose to ignore it.

As far as the LS7 goes are you kidding me or are you just that clueless? The fact is the titanium rods are showing they are using one of the best parts in the area the engine needs it.
They could spend 50K on the engine but this is a street engine, they are using the best parts available for making the intended HP and keep the durability in this engine.
Every part you mentioned would necessitate the engine being modified in other areas at considerable expense.

They wanted 500 HP and they got it reliability without that cost, your super duper 0 Ohm wires would give them 10 HP more for nothing according to you.

As far as guys breaking this and that, Formula one engines, Nascar and all sorts of racing engines using the parts of the quality you mentioned break all the time, so what?
You make extreme examples and "say see they are not using the best parts". You are either a dreamer, clueless or both with these stupid arguments.

You have been reading too many speed catalogs, watching to many youtube videos and reading to many hot rod magazines. Then coming here with 125 post like you are some sort of speed engine expert.
IMO you are nothing more than a clueless troll trying to sell people on something they don't need.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: Trav
You are the one posting about free HP from0 ohm wires which is total nonsense.


Granatelli is on many forums. Go to one of them, and call him out. It's been done before. Not successfully, but it's been done before. You think the man is full of [censored]? You have every opportunity in the world to tell him yourself and link us to the results.

Quote:

Many snake oil manufacturers use dyno test to prove this that and the other, we have all seen it xx more HP if you use this and that.
How much time between the last run and the one they post the HP increase? You don't know, they don't say and it does make a difference.


And you don't know either, for you to say there was any fault in what he did. You want to know more? Ask the man in the video. What's so hard about that?

Quote:
I see you either don't know what the LS9 has for wires or choose to ignore it.


As a matter of fact I do. I just didn't understand what that has to do with the price of tea in China, when the LSX block proves that not only are there better components for LS equipped vehicles, but those components are located right behind GM's own doors. Your point that the LS7 or LS9 gets the best parts has been debunked. You can keep trying to find a chair to grab onto, but it's not going to hold you up on this one.

Quote:
As far as the LS7 goes are you kidding me or are you just that clueless? The fact is the titanium rods are showing they are using one of the best parts in the area the engine needs it.


They key term is in bold. One does not equal all.


Quote:
They could spend 50K on the engine but this is a street engine, they are using the best parts available for making the intended HP and keep the durability in this engine.
Every part you mentioned would necessitate the engine being modified in other areas at considerable expense.


How does this in any way change the fact that they are not using the best components available in the LS7. You keep agreeing with me that they are not using the best components, and handing me explanations as to why they do not, all the while admitting that it's not all the best stuff.

Quote:
They wanted 500 HP and they got it reliability without that cost, your super duper 0 Ohm wires would give them 10 HP more for nothing according to you.


According to me, I have no idea what it would cost for those geniuses to actually have such a thing made, run it through all of the necessary certifications and tests, distribute it, and provide warranty support for it, and if the accountants and execs wouldn't just dump all over it.

Quote:
As far as guys breaking this and that, Formula one engines, Nascar and all sorts of racing engines using the parts of the quality you mentioned break all the time, so what?


So, they operate at a level far far above that of a stock Z06. I can tell you one thing right now, however, and that is that OEM parts wouldn't last an eighth as long as racing parts under those conditions, which is why there isn't one factory engine raced in EITHER series, and the manufacturers themselves create engines for these series that don't even remotely resemble what they put into their street cars. So if the street factory stuff is so great, where the Formula 1 car running a street BMW engine, and where's the LS7 under the hood of a NASCAR?


Quote:
You make extreme examples and "say see they are not using the best parts". You are either a dreamer, clueless or both with these stupid arguments.


Nice of you to resort to ad-hominem when confronted with the fact that GM keeps the real good LS stuff away from even their $100,000 Corvette.

Quote:
You have been reading too many speed catalogs, watching to many youtube videos and reading to many hot rod magazines. Then coming here with 125 post like you are some sort of speed engine expert.


So now my life experience, education, and knowledge is reflected in my post count? Nice.

Quote:
IMO you are nothing more than a clueless troll trying to sell people on something they don't need.


Series of events:

1. OP asks about his wires.

2. I share anecdotal experiences after telling him to check his stock wires to see if they match his factory specs, and make exactly no recommendation what he should do to his wires, one way, or the other.

3. People jump on me for not wanting my first child to be named Arthur Champion Delco.

4. I'm asked to post dynos to prove my point that better wires can make any sort of gain in power.

5. I post them.

6. Argue with me, instead of the man who made the video, and constantly makes himself available for the [censored] callouts.

7. Now I'm a troll and a salesman?

The next test you send to a lab should be a drug test, not a UOA.