According to my BMW manual:
Even the $9.00 ATE Super Blue or Super Gold DOT4 fluid is cheap when compared to ABS system components
Changing brake fluid?
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Few things in life are guaranteed.
There is no guarantee you will survive a car crash if you are wearing your seat belt, there is no gurantee you won't get run over if you look both ways before you cross the street, there is no guarantee you will live a long and healthy life if you eat well and exercise....
But some things are just smart to do, even if the don't result in an ironclad guarantee.
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XS650 wrote:
By the way, none of my cars had ever any part of their brake system fail or corrode -- and I've lived in some harsh climates where road salt was used for 4 months every winter.
I'm not sure what service interval is suggested with silicone-based brake fluid (DOT5). But I have driven a car that used that type fluid, and I was less than impressed by the brake feel.
[ May 02, 2004, 04:44 AM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
Which maker doesn't mandate replacing brake fluid? All my VW, Audi, and Opel (GM!) cars required this service. I'm sure my Chevy and Buick manuals also mentioned brake fluid service.
By the way, none of my cars had ever any part of their brake system fail or corrode -- and I've lived in some harsh climates where road salt was used for 4 months every winter.
I'm not sure what service interval is suggested with silicone-based brake fluid (DOT5). But I have driven a car that used that type fluid, and I was less than impressed by the brake feel.
[ May 02, 2004, 04:44 AM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
The owners manual for my 02 Chevy Cavalier doesn't say anything except use DOT 3 fluid. I find suggestions that changing the brake fluid protects parts not in contact with it, such as the boots and the outer edge of the caliper pistons, completely out of touch with reality.
Suggestions you do not replace important rubber parts like caliper O-rings and boots in a timely manner, are not only unrealistic and contrary to my extensive experience, but irresponsible.
Suggestions you do not replace important rubber parts like caliper O-rings and boots in a timely manner, are not only unrealistic and contrary to my extensive experience, but irresponsible.
1995 GMC POS-15 Pickup Never
1996 Corvette Never
2000 Acura 3.2TL 1st time at 45,000 miles or 36 months, then 12 months or 15,000 miles after that.
Silicone fluid can also cause corrosion. Water doen't mix with the silicone based fluid so sits in the botttom of the cylinders in droplets in constant contact with the metal. I was an early used of Silicone DOT brake fluid and had already quit using it before it became a brief fad.
I missed those comments, who made them?
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labman wrote:
[ May 02, 2004, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
Just to clarify, I never said brake fluid would protect parts that weren't in contact with the brake fluid. Regular inspection and preventive maintenance (cleaning, lubing, replacing components as needed) must take care of any potentially lethal problems with a car's most important feature -- a properly functioning brake system. Brake fluid, being hygroscopic, will let moisture get into the brake system components. The degradation in stopping power caused by moisture-contaminated brake fluid is serious enough, but internal corrosion is invisible from the outside and must be prevented.
[ May 02, 2004, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
This sounds to me like change your brake fluid often enough and you will never need to do anything else. I have seen many steel lines with holes corroded in them. They invariably were extensively pitted on the outside. The worst places always were up where crud collects on the OUTSIDE of them.
It is amazing how much neglect you can get away with. I ran a 71 Valiant with front discs 120K in 10 years. I know better than to take chances like that now, but I never did anything to the brakes except change the lining and hardware, and never had any problems.
You got the right! I heard some guy say you shouldn't do routine flushing of your brake system.
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Yeah, because someone lets crud accumulate on vital parts, I shouldn't adhere to a routine maintenance schedule. Makes total sense. It's all clear now!
Odd, I always got away with changing brake fluid and keeping maintenance up. I guess, from now on I'll just replace the whole brake system. It's cheaper, more fun to do, and MUCH safer.
[ May 02, 2004, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
Odd, I always got away with changing brake fluid and keeping maintenance up. I guess, from now on I'll just replace the whole brake system. It's cheaper, more fun to do, and MUCH safer.
[ May 02, 2004, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
As long as you change your fluid regularly, the other parts may well last the rest of your life.
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Your point seems to be, since parts may corrode, routine maintenance makes no sense. May as well wait for things to break. To each his own, I guess. As for putting words in my mouth in your last sentence, I can only laugh at that.
I am now at the point of having a system down. I use a air powered vacuum pump to suck fluid out of the master cylinder. I then fill it with new brake fluid.
I then hook up the vacuum line to each caliper and wheel cylinder. I try to push on the brake pedal some during the vacuuming of the fluid to agitate the fluid and it helps start the fluid moving.
I feel this helps the piston and cylinder cups by getting the sludgie crud out of the crevaces. I stop when the fluid flows clear. I take comfort in knowing that I have a good boiling point and good rust protection.
I then hook up the vacuum line to each caliper and wheel cylinder. I try to push on the brake pedal some during the vacuuming of the fluid to agitate the fluid and it helps start the fluid moving.
I feel this helps the piston and cylinder cups by getting the sludgie crud out of the crevaces. I stop when the fluid flows clear. I take comfort in knowing that I have a good boiling point and good rust protection.
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Don't forget, depending on the vehicle, you may have to cycle the ABS control unit to remove all fluid from it. That may require a special (computerized) tool. The ABS control unit is very sensitive to particle contamination and it is an expensive part.
My point is that playing with the brake fluid is no substitute for regularly rebuilding wheel cylinders and calipers. Allowing salt and crud to build up on steel lines will eventually eat them away from the outside. Because you have gotten away with neglecting calipers, doesn't mean that you aren't chancing a failure of an important part of the car. Most of the failures of brake systems come from parts not where they are contact with the brake fluid.quote:
Originally posted by moribundman:
Your point seems to be, since parts may corrode, routine maintenance makes no sense. May as well wait for things to break. To each his own, I guess. As for putting words in my mouth in your last sentence, I can only laugh at that.
As for the sensitivity of the ABS, remind me not to buy German. The more I read here, the more thay sound like PITA's to keep on the road.
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see below
[ May 03, 2004, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
[ May 03, 2004, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
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quote:
Originally posted by moribundman:
labman wrote:
labman, you didn't read what I wrote, or you'd know that I never said that changing brake fluid would prevent corrosion on external parts. You'd also know that I said you're not supposed to let crud and salt build up on vital parts. Well, at least I don't let that happen.
I've never had to rebuild any brake system components on any of my cars, whether they were German or American-made. All ABS control units are sensitive towards contamination, not just German ones (Better make sure your Japanese or US car doesn't have a Bosch ABS control unit). And no, I've never had a problem with any ABS. I've also never had a brake piston corrode or a brake lining rust through. The only thing that ever broke was the brake fluid reservoir on my Buick, which kept developing cracks at the threads where the cap went.
Brake fluid goes bad over time and that's a SAFETY ISSUE. Old fluid can and will result in reduced braking power, regardless whether or not there's any external corrosion or not. The moisture in the fluid alone, sans corrosion, is already a hazard! Why is that so hard to comprehend?
I simply don't understand how you can speak out against preventive maintenance. Then again, you also had to make a cheap shot at German cars, right? I don't think you are furthering your cause.
[ May 03, 2004, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
Clever.
I got it.
That looks like a VW/Audi manual.
Obviously the point to all of this is that the fluid should be changed every two years whether the manufacturer cares to tell you or not. Even if the corrosion from absorbed water were not the issue, the air/water causing problems with pedal feel would be reason enough. And the caliper piston seals should obviously be inspected and changed periodically too.
I don't care if it's a Ford, GM, Chrysler or an import, the ABS pump needs to be cycled with a computer and the fluid does not have the same properties after a certain period of time. And I'm sure the seals *do* degrade whether it's import or domestic.
The fact is you could probably get away with lack of maintenance just as much with an import as you could with a domestic. You'd be just as unsafe too. At least the import manufacturers tell that you have to perform the maintenance.
I don't know about all imports or even euro imports, but for VW/Audi you can set yourself up with a great, full function scan tool called VAG-COM for $200 or even less if you want to build a basic, simple circuit board. The only other requirement is a computer and many of us have old ones laying around. I threw some parts together for free and have one out in the shop. This lets you do everything, including cycle the ABS pump, not just read codes. Try finding something like that for a domestic. Don't get me wrong, I do like my domestics...
Obviously the point to all of this is that the fluid should be changed every two years whether the manufacturer cares to tell you or not. Even if the corrosion from absorbed water were not the issue, the air/water causing problems with pedal feel would be reason enough. And the caliper piston seals should obviously be inspected and changed periodically too.
I don't care if it's a Ford, GM, Chrysler or an import, the ABS pump needs to be cycled with a computer and the fluid does not have the same properties after a certain period of time. And I'm sure the seals *do* degrade whether it's import or domestic.
The fact is you could probably get away with lack of maintenance just as much with an import as you could with a domestic. You'd be just as unsafe too. At least the import manufacturers tell that you have to perform the maintenance.
I don't know about all imports or even euro imports, but for VW/Audi you can set yourself up with a great, full function scan tool called VAG-COM for $200 or even less if you want to build a basic, simple circuit board. The only other requirement is a computer and many of us have old ones laying around. I threw some parts together for free and have one out in the shop. This lets you do everything, including cycle the ABS pump, not just read codes. Try finding something like that for a domestic. Don't get me wrong, I do like my domestics...
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Yes, it's from my Audi manual. I do have VAG-COM and I do use a pressure bleeder.
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