Jim:
Can't wait to get the flow rates back from Jay for the FU. If even remotely close, I am going to stick with the FU.
Can't wait to get the flow rates back from Jay for the FU. If even remotely close, I am going to stick with the FU.
Canton Mecca (CM) Absolute No Bypass Oil Filters
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Originally Posted By: URG8RB8
Jim:
Can't wait to get the flow rates back from Jay for the FU. If even remotely close, I am going to stick with the FU.
What's the max oil volume flow rate in your engine when the oil pump is in pressure relief mode? That's the other missing piece of the puzzle. If your engine flows a max of say 8 GPM when the oil pump is at max output pressure, and a filter can flow 12 GPM with a 5 PSID pressure drop, than that filter is going to do a fine job.
If another filter produced 12 PSID at 8 GPM and was close to opening the filter's bypass valve, then that filter is boarder-line under designed for that engine application. Two pieces of the puzzle - filter and engine - to see if they match well or not.
Jim:
Can't wait to get the flow rates back from Jay for the FU. If even remotely close, I am going to stick with the FU.
What's the max oil volume flow rate in your engine when the oil pump is in pressure relief mode? That's the other missing piece of the puzzle. If your engine flows a max of say 8 GPM when the oil pump is at max output pressure, and a filter can flow 12 GPM with a 5 PSID pressure drop, than that filter is going to do a fine job.
If another filter produced 12 PSID at 8 GPM and was close to opening the filter's bypass valve, then that filter is boarder-line under designed for that engine application. Two pieces of the puzzle - filter and engine - to see if they match well or not.
I am trying to find out that exact information right now. I have made posts in a couple forums. I have read the FSM and WSM cover to cover. No mention on max flow rate. I do know our oil pumps do not have a built in OPRV, they have a seperate independent OPRV in the oil filter housing. It has a very high blow off value of around 97-100 psi. I would post an oil flow schematic, but don't have one of those picture accounts. I don't know why you just cant' upload a picture. I will post when I find out.
Here is what information Jay sent to me on the first go around I have since asked more questions.
Fram Racing Filters (not HP10 specific)
The racing filter is around 85-90% efficiency at 20 microns
We have recently updated the racing filter design. The flow rate is over 15gpm. It now has metal end caps and a 500 psi burst strength.
So it flows well, and filters OK. I asked for media type but have not heard back.
Fram Racing Filters (not HP10 specific)
The racing filter is around 85-90% efficiency at 20 microns
We have recently updated the racing filter design. The flow rate is over 15gpm. It now has metal end caps and a 500 psi burst strength.
So it flows well, and filters OK. I asked for media type but have not heard back.
Jim:
As you can see, adding a differential pressure sender should be fairly easy on my car.
By the way, oil pressure is fairly high on these cars, typically around 5 bar on startup (~72.5 psi)it will settle down to around 3.5 (50.7 psi) after warm up and at idle. Any hard pull will put it around 4.5-5.0 again.
As you can see, adding a differential pressure sender should be fairly easy on my car.
By the way, oil pressure is fairly high on these cars, typically around 5 bar on startup (~72.5 psi)it will settle down to around 3.5 (50.7 psi) after warm up and at idle. Any hard pull will put it around 4.5-5.0 again.
Originally Posted By: URG8RB8
Here is what information Jay sent to me on the first go around I have since asked more questions.
Fram Racing Filters (not HP10 specific)
The racing filter is around 85-90% efficiency at 20 microns
We have recently updated the racing filter design. The flow rate is over 15gpm. It now has metal end caps and a 500 psi burst strength.
So it flows well, and filters OK. I asked for media type but have not heard back.
About the rated flow rate from Jay ... at what specific condition(s)? When the delta-P is a certain value? When the bypass opens up, when the media self destructs, when the moon is full? .... gotta have some qualifier on that flow spec.
Here is what information Jay sent to me on the first go around I have since asked more questions.
Fram Racing Filters (not HP10 specific)
The racing filter is around 85-90% efficiency at 20 microns
We have recently updated the racing filter design. The flow rate is over 15gpm. It now has metal end caps and a 500 psi burst strength.
So it flows well, and filters OK. I asked for media type but have not heard back.
About the rated flow rate from Jay ... at what specific condition(s)? When the delta-P is a certain value? When the bypass opens up, when the media self destructs, when the moon is full? .... gotta have some qualifier on that flow spec.
Originally Posted By: URG8RB8
I am trying to find out that exact information right now. I have made posts in a couple forums. I have read the FSM and WSM cover to cover. No mention on max flow rate. I do know our oil pumps do not have a built in OPRV, they have a seperate independent OPRV in the oil filter housing. It has a very high blow off value of around 97-100 psi.
That might give a slight indication that the oiling system flows pretty good ... BUT, it still all depends on the total resistance of the engine's oiling system. The engine designers might have designed the oil pump to put out 100 psi so they could force enough oil down the engine's oiling system.
What you really need is the oil pump's positive displacement per rev, or the pump's volumetric output vs. engine RPM to know for sure what kind of flow the filter & engine is going to see.
I am trying to find out that exact information right now. I have made posts in a couple forums. I have read the FSM and WSM cover to cover. No mention on max flow rate. I do know our oil pumps do not have a built in OPRV, they have a seperate independent OPRV in the oil filter housing. It has a very high blow off value of around 97-100 psi.
That might give a slight indication that the oiling system flows pretty good ... BUT, it still all depends on the total resistance of the engine's oiling system. The engine designers might have designed the oil pump to put out 100 psi so they could force enough oil down the engine's oiling system.
What you really need is the oil pump's positive displacement per rev, or the pump's volumetric output vs. engine RPM to know for sure what kind of flow the filter & engine is going to see.
Z06:
Added some information to the other thread. I incorrectly posted the relief pressure, it is supposed to be 5 bar (72.5 psi) The oil pump has too much output actually, sorry for double posting.
I have an idea for the oil-pump, just not enough time currently to pursue it...
The issue is flow rate. The 944/951 oil pump has too much flow. This might seem counter-intuitive, but let me explain:
The oil pump gerotor design is a positive-displacement pump. Doubling the RPM, ideally, doubles the amount of flow. In the 944/951, we have abnormally high oil-pressure at low RPMs, most vehicles will run 10-15psi per 1000rpm; yet, we have nearly double that pressure. Below the relief pressure, all the oil is getting pumped into the engine. However, once the maximum pressure is reached, excess oil is bypassed back into the oil pan. In our cars, after 2-3k RPM, maximum pressure is reached, and any extra pressure (flow) is diverted to the pan. So if the pressure is being diverted at 3k rpm, then doubling the RPM to 6k essentially doubles the flow. But for the most part the engine cannot use the extra flow, so all this extra oil flow is simply being diverted to the pan... At some point, the inlet flow requirements to the pump become greater than the passageways can flow (without aid), and the pump cavitates.
So the solution? Reduce how much the oil pump flows per revolution. What we don't want to do is restrict flow - reduce is not synonymous with restrict... The ideal solution would be to change the gerotor gear to one that simply flows less. In this case, at idle instead of having ~2bar oil pressure, we might only have 1bar. But, the oil pump will not have to bypass oil until a higher RPM, meaning it requires less inlet oil flow, and therefore not cavitating until a higher RPM than the stock pump.
Added some information to the other thread. I incorrectly posted the relief pressure, it is supposed to be 5 bar (72.5 psi) The oil pump has too much output actually, sorry for double posting.
I have an idea for the oil-pump, just not enough time currently to pursue it...
The issue is flow rate. The 944/951 oil pump has too much flow. This might seem counter-intuitive, but let me explain:
The oil pump gerotor design is a positive-displacement pump. Doubling the RPM, ideally, doubles the amount of flow. In the 944/951, we have abnormally high oil-pressure at low RPMs, most vehicles will run 10-15psi per 1000rpm; yet, we have nearly double that pressure. Below the relief pressure, all the oil is getting pumped into the engine. However, once the maximum pressure is reached, excess oil is bypassed back into the oil pan. In our cars, after 2-3k RPM, maximum pressure is reached, and any extra pressure (flow) is diverted to the pan. So if the pressure is being diverted at 3k rpm, then doubling the RPM to 6k essentially doubles the flow. But for the most part the engine cannot use the extra flow, so all this extra oil flow is simply being diverted to the pan... At some point, the inlet flow requirements to the pump become greater than the passageways can flow (without aid), and the pump cavitates.
So the solution? Reduce how much the oil pump flows per revolution. What we don't want to do is restrict flow - reduce is not synonymous with restrict... The ideal solution would be to change the gerotor gear to one that simply flows less. In this case, at idle instead of having ~2bar oil pressure, we might only have 1bar. But, the oil pump will not have to bypass oil until a higher RPM, meaning it requires less inlet oil flow, and therefore not cavitating until a higher RPM than the stock pump.
Yes, his response was quick, but lacking in many details. I replied back within five minutes asking further details and suppling him further information, but failed to get any response. I don't think they want to disclose any details about their product which is frustrating!
I wanted to add to this post, that I spoke directly with Jay and received the majority of the information I required. There are no specific details, but the FU appears to be the best choice for now anyway. I am never one to leave anything alone. If I find something better, I will use that instead. I am finding out more and more about my little engine. I has quite the unique oiling system. I had never paid close enough attention previously. This is a great learning tool!
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