Bought a 223

[Falken]

Overkill, I am RELIEVED that the gun shoots accurately.

The sticker shock floored me, that is all.

Savage and Mossberg probably aren't any different than Remington at this point, machining being what it is today.

A fair deal for both parties is ideal in the end.

Enjoy your rifle!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Falken
Overkill, I am RELIEVED that the gun shoots accurately.

The sticker shock floored me, that is all.

Savage and Mossberg probably aren't any different than Remington at this point, machining being what it is today.

A fair deal for both parties is ideal in the end.

Enjoy your rifle!


I'm relieved but not surprised. My buddy Jon has been dealing with these guys (as has his dad) since he was just a little kid. They've bought a LOT of guns off of them and so I didn't expect to be screwed in any way, shape or form by them on this purchase. Perhaps omitting that bit of background information helped in forming the initial opinion you had of the purchase?

The gun works as expected, it quite obviously had very few rounds through it based on the condition and I imagine the reason it was sold was likely because who ever owned it lost their job and needed some cash. I have no proof of that but I don't see the logic in trading in something so well equipped and well cared for. Just my opinion on it of course

Yeah, it was a fair chunk of change and as I initially stated, more than I had planned on spending. But the scope is absolutely beautiful, and the rifle, aside from being quite heavy, feels wonderful. I put 60 rounds through it today and I was only out about 45 bucks. In contrast, the .270 would have been $90.00 to cycle the same amount of ammo through it.

I'm certainly enjoying it and look forward to taking it out again, maybe next weekend

 

[Falken]

Yes, I wasn't aware that you knew the sellers so well.

Again, I base the value of .223 only on how tight it groups.

I was very surprised when I shot .223. I was expecting much less ferocity.

.223 is quite the round. It sounds like the World is coming apart, when in the movies it is a pop pop pop!

 

[OVERKILL]

Yeah, it is loud for a small round. Not as loud as the .270 though

I imagine a .50 BMG sounds like [censored] just opened up beneath you, LOL!

The movies seem to be notorious for inaccurate firearm sounds so the fact they screw that one up doesn't surprise me

 

[Robenstein]

A short barreled 223 is really loud. My 20inch AR15 doesn't seem loud to me. But my first rifle as an adult was an M38 Mosin Nagant carbine. That thing really barked.

 

[dwcopple]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I put 60 rounds through it today and I was only out about 45 bucks.
If you shot steel cased ammo, you'd have only been out $20 or less.

 

[Falken]

When I bought my Mini-Thirty years ago I bought 2 x 1000 round cases of steel cased ammo.

I loaded that into the back of my car with the new gun from a small gun shop in Montreal and it felt like I was driving a motorboat home.

I don't remember the price, but it was insanely cheap. I am pretty sure it was under 100$ each case.

I never really tracked down who made that ammo, but it was fairly accurate and smelled funny when you shoot it.

It didn't smell sweet like the first few rounds of 12 gauge ammo, it smelled like burned plastic or something.

I still have a lot left, but Pie Plate MOA on the Thirty relegates it to the back of the gun cabinet.

Plinking and banging around in a sand pit is extremely frowned upon in Quebec at the moment, so I tend to just small game hunt when I get the time.

Lately I've liked just hiking with a gun slung over a small day pack to just enjoy the walk.

Having the gun along is just a nice feeling when you are out in the sticks, and you might happen along a rabbit you can skin up and roast in the woods for fun.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: dwcopple
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I put 60 rounds through it today and I was only out about 45 bucks.
If you shot steel cased ammo, you'd have only been out $20 or less.


IF you have a tack driver of a rifle, steel cased ammo usually will not be as accurate. Ruskie made ammo is not exactly made for precision shooting. That is like putting regular fuel in a high compression racing engine and wondering why it does not perform as well as when you put high octane premium in it. Every component of a rifle platform lends itself towards its accuracy. And to truly find out how accurate your weapon is, you need to use good ammo.

Now for plinking...I use steel case often, but if I am trying to chew out one small hole at the range with my custom built varmint rifle...then I am going to use brass ammo the gun likes.

 

[Astro14]

I've seen "Pie Plate MOA" in a couple of posts, now...and sorry to go OT, but what on Earth is meant/intended by Pie Plate MOA?

In my understanding, MOA = Minute of Angle. It is a measurement of angular displacement. A pretty fine measure equal to 1/60th of a degree, which corresponds to about 1" at 100 Yds.

So, a one MOA rifle shoots within one inch at 100 yds. Pie Plate MOA? That's oxymoronic...that's like saying "yep, shoots pie plate inch groups"...well, which is it? Pie plate sized groups? Or inch groups?

What are you trying to say? Accurate? Or inaccurate?

 

[Robenstein]

Its just slang for an inaccurate rifles. Some of the older and more sloppy Mini 14 Rugers have been called "Minute of Milkjug" rifles due to their tendency to have the point of impact vary wildly,especially as the barrel heats up

 

[Astro14]

On to steel cased ammo - I wouldn't shoot it in my guns if the guns got warm....in fact, I don't shoot it at all. I would recommend reloading .223. Bolt guns are easy on cases (autos tend to ding them up, at least from what I've seen), so reloading makes sense with a bolt gun like you've got.

The steel cases are coated with a varnish to prevent rust. Get the chamber hot, and the varnish softens and sticks, causing problems like fouling, extraction failures (more common in autos) and feed problems (again, worse in autos).

If steel case ammo were that great, and it's that much cheaper, then our troops would be shooting it...but they're not, because in a firefight, in an M-4 or M-16, it would jam the gun when the gun got hot.

 

[Robenstein]

Lots of military forces use or used steel case ammo, and not all of them have been ComBloc nations. But yes, the AR platform has marginal extraction strength. In a more robust design it is usually less of an issue.

As for the varnish, some have varnish others have a poly coating which does not stick. The varnish is very easily removed if you clean your gun well after you shoot it. But its not high performance ammo for sure.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
On to steel cased ammo - I wouldn't shoot it in my guns if the guns got warm....in fact, I don't shoot it at all. I would recommend reloading .223. Bolt guns are easy on cases (autos tend to ding them up, at least from what I've seen), so reloading makes sense with a bolt gun like you've got.

The steel cases are coated with a varnish to prevent rust. Get the chamber hot, and the varnish softens and sticks, causing problems like fouling, extraction failures (more common in autos) and feed problems (again, worse in autos).

If steel case ammo were that great, and it's that much cheaper, then our troops would be shooting it...but they're not, because in a firefight, in an M-4 or M-16, it would jam the gun when the gun got hot.


I'm looking at maybe reloading, but have to buy the gear first. It certainly makes sense for the .270 given the price of the rounds. So to extend that to the .223 just makes sense IMHO.

 

[Astro14]

Yeah, extra dies are relatively inexpensive once you've got the press. Reloading is in my future, frankly, in our modest house, there is no room for a bench, but I've looked at it extensively because cost is an issue...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Yeah, extra dies are relatively inexpensive once you've got the press. Reloading is in my future, frankly, in our modest house, there is no room for a bench, but I've looked at it extensively because cost is an issue...


My basement is "my domain", though it is an absolute IT disaster at the moment with probably 50 computers down there in various stages of disassembly and a host of networking gear. Oh, and car parts. A few of those. Though nowhere near as bad as when I was doing the 5.0L thing, hahaha

I could certainly clear up an area to setup the press and stuff. And I'm sure my wife would be overjoyed if I did anything down there to make it less messy

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
In my understanding, MOA = Minute of Angle. It is a measurement of angular displacement. A pretty fine measure equal to 1/60th of a degree, which corresponds to about 1" at 100 Yds.

So, a one MOA rifle shoots within one inch at 100 yds. Pie Plate MOA?


Then a "pie plate MOA" is shooting within a pie plate diameter group at 100 yards. Not so good ...

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Astro14
In my understanding, MOA = Minute of Angle. It is a measurement of angular displacement. A pretty fine measure equal to 1/60th of a degree, which corresponds to about 1" at 100 Yds.

So, a one MOA rifle shoots within one inch at 100 yds. Pie Plate MOA?


Then a "pie plate MOA" is shooting within a pie plate diameter group at 100 yards. Not so good ...

I understand what you all are saying now...but the point is: "Pie Plate MOA" is tortured English.

A Minute of Angle (MOA) is a very small amount. It's a discreet mathematical value (1/60th of a degree) that represents very tight performance in a rifle. Modifying it with "Pie Plate" is putting two antitheses together to make, well, an oxymoron...so, like saying "he's a giant midget"...it just doesn't make sense...is he big? small? in between?

At 1,000 yards, an MOA (an is the singular, meaning 1) rifle will be shooting a pie plate...so, is that bad? is that good? 1 MOA is tight...and at that distance, pie plate is good...

So, if you said "Pie Plate accuracy" at 100 yds, then sure, I understand exactly...that's a 10 MOA rifle... but when you put the two together, you get an inherently self-contradictory description...

 

[strat81]

Originally Posted By: Falken
Savage and Mossberg probably aren't any different than Remington at this point, machining being what it is today.


A big selling point of the Savage 10/110 over Remington 700s is the ability for the average guy to rebarrel the rifle. On a rifle chambered in a cartridge known for chewing up barrels (.22-250, .243, .300 Win Mag, etc.), that's a nice feature.


Originally Posted By: Astro14
The steel cases are coated with a varnish to prevent rust. Get the chamber hot, and the varnish softens and sticks, causing problems like fouling, extraction failures (more common in autos) and feed problems (again, worse in autos).


This is a myth and is easily tested at home with a spent case and a propane torch.

Some steel case ammo comes with sealant around the case mouth. Sometimes, this sealant can get sticky in a hot chamber and come off into the chamber itself.

The bigger culprit is the steel itself. Steel does not obturate in the chamber as well as brass does, often resulting in "blow by" that can foul the chamber. Compounded by the generally dirty powders comblc steel cased ammo uses, this can lead to a very fouled bore and sticky extraction.

But the case coating, either the poly or the lacquer, will not melt.

FWIW, Hornady Steel Match ammo is very good stuff, clean and accurate. It is far beyond the imported junk.

 

[Astro14]

Thanks Strat - didn't know that!

 

[strat81]

PS - The case mouth sealant can be found on some western milsurp ammo too, not just the commie stuff. If you've ever seen or bought pulled .30 cal bullets with black gunk on them, that's sealant. I've seen people refer to it as asphalt sealant, but I have no idea what it's made from.

Also, some primers have sealant on them too. Sellier & Belloit factory ammo has it (or they did on the last case I had from them) and the Hornady Critical Duty rounds I got in the autumn 2013 also had sealant. It helps prevent primer contamination. I've seen it come off on breechfaces, but some solvent removed it easily and it otherwise never caused a problem for me.