Birds and Bats killed by Wind Energy Systems

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Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I don't see how anyone can argue with clean power that doesn't have fuel costs.

There are always capital costs.


The capital costs aren't that bad on solar and wind and will only get better. I've been thinking about solar panels on the roof. Its not competitive with bulk power prices but when you include the distribution charge it looks a lot better. I feel the utility skews their costs to distribution since that is the monopoly part.
 
There are some people going that route in the province here with solar panels, some wind, and even some geothermal. A small scale might be the best way. But, these big wind farms can be maintenance hogs, I gather.
 
I don't know what to think of all this mess, but IMO it make sense to "change the law" to make the grid more robust, and build a dedicated line from the unstable, renewable to a big consumer instead of having the whole thing connected as one.

Say you have a dedicated line for an industrial park to run an aluminum plant, or smart power controller that runs large air conditioners, industrial gas plant, electric car charger, refrigerated process food plants, etc, they can afford to skip a beat or two or gradually shift the phase slightly to adapt to unstable power source, or even follow loads based on the energy supply to balance loads. Heck, they can probably run high voltage DC too.

I just don't see why we "have to" runs everything at exactly 50/60Hz despite a lot of them have to be converted to high voltage DC or can throttle their output anyways.
 
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Wind generation is a good complement to hydroelectric generation - the ponded water on the reservoir side of a dam can be retained when wind power is being added to the system. Thus, the water not spilt is held in reserve, with the dam acting like a battery.

The problem we have here is that the wind turbines can only operate down to c. -26 C. Below that they have to be shut down, and draw from the grid for heat.

Because our peak loads tend to occur in excess of -30 C, the wind turbines add to our peak load.

I realize this would not be an issue in milder climates, and hope that wind turbine technology will continue to improve making it more viable in extreme climates.
 
Maybe we should also go solar in our short prairie days in the winter, right?
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I've always had problems with nuclear power due to disposal issues with depleted fuel.

Just burying it somewhere doesn't cut it to me.

I'd much rather have coal power and its related pollution that can be ameliorated in a relatively short period of time.
 
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
I've always had problems with nuclear power due to disposal issues with depleted fuel.

Just burying it somewhere doesn't cut it to me.

I'd much rather have coal power and its related pollution that can be ameliorated in a relatively short period of time.


Nuclear fuel can be recycled. What are your thoughts on the mercury emissions from the coal plants?
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
I've always had problems with nuclear power due to disposal issues with depleted fuel.

Just burying it somewhere doesn't cut it to me.

I'd much rather have coal power and its related pollution that can be ameliorated in a relatively short period of time.


Nuclear fuel can be recycled. What are your thoughts on the mercury emissions from the coal plants?


Actually, the better answer is nuclear waste can be used as fuel in the right kind of nuclear plant. Recycling is not as bad but you don't burn all the isotopes that could have been used in fast reactors.

China is doing the right thing pushing for the best and latest nuclear plants. They have to if they don't want to be dragged into wars in the future for energy. I really hope they can do the right thing and use up as much long half life waste the rest of the world generates.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
I've always had problems with nuclear power due to disposal issues with depleted fuel.

Just burying it somewhere doesn't cut it to me.

I'd much rather have coal power and its related pollution that can be ameliorated in a relatively short period of time.


Nuclear fuel can be recycled. What are your thoughts on the mercury emissions from the coal plants?


Actually, the better answer is nuclear waste can be used as fuel in the right kind of nuclear plant. Recycling is not as bad but you don't burn all the isotopes that could have been used in fast reactors.

China is doing the right thing pushing for the best and latest nuclear plants. They have to if they don't want to be dragged into wars in the future for energy. I really hope they can do the right thing and use up as much long half life waste the rest of the world generates.


Perhaps I should have been more verbose in my use of the term recycled as I was thinking of not only the reprocessing of the fuel rods but also the re-purposing of them in the fast breed reactors along with other things currently being developed that greatly reduce the "waste" from a nuclear plant and what IS left is nothing like what comes out of a current plant.

I read a great article on it here a few weeks ago:
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Nuclear-Fuel-Cycle/Fuel-Recycling/Processing-of-Used-Nuclear-Fuel/

Quote:
Used nuclear fuel has long been reprocessed to extract fissile materials for recycling and to reduce the volume of high-level wastes.
Recycling today is largely based on the conversion of fertile U-238 to fissile plutonium.
New reprocessing technologies are being developed to be deployed in conjunction with fast neutron reactors which will burn all long-lived actinides, including all uranium and plutonium.
A significant amount of plutonium recovered from used fuel is currently recycled into MOX fuel; a small amount of recovered uranium is recycled so far.
A key, nearly unique, characteristic of nuclear energy is that used fuel may be reprocessed to recover fissile and fertile materials in order to provide fresh fuel for existing and future nuclear power plants. Several European countries, Russia and Japan have had a policy to reprocess used nuclear fuel, although government policies in many other countries have not yet come round to seeing used fuel as a resource rather than a waste.
Over the last 50 years the principal reason for reprocessing used fuel has been to recover unused plutonium, along with less immediately useful unused uranium, in the used fuel elements and thereby close the fuel cycle, gaining some 25% to 30% more energy from the original uranium in the process. This contributes to national energy security. A secondary reason is to reduce the volume of material to be disposed of as high-level waste to about one-fifth. In addition, the level of radioactivity in the waste from reprocessing is much smaller and after about 100 years falls much more rapidly than in used fuel itself.
These are all considerations based on current power reactors, but moving to fourth-generation fast neutron reactors in the late 2020s changes the outlook dramatically, and means that not only used fuel from today’s reactors but also the large stockpiles of depleted uranium (from enrichment plants, about 1.5 million tonnes in 2015) become a fuel source. Uranium mining will become much less significant.

*snip*
 
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
I'd much rather have coal power and its related pollution that can be ameliorated in a relatively short period of time.


Originally Posted By: PandaBear
China is doing the right thing pushing for the best and latest nuclear plants. They have to if they don't want to be dragged into wars in the future for energy. I really hope they can do the right thing and use up as much long half life waste the rest of the world generates.


I don't know what China is doing with nuclear plants, but so far coal power is not slowing down, and the environmental effects are very striking.

I think in North America people take the environment somewhat for granted and then complain about environmental laws. If you have to live in dangerous smog like in Beijing you might have a different opinion of coal power or strict emission testing for cars.
 
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They just announced Pilgrim nuclear will shut down. The whiny executive said it can't compete with state subsidized solar and wind. The guys a dunce.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
They just announced Pilgrim nuclear will shut down. The whiny executive said it can't compete with state subsidized solar and wind. The guys a dunce.



That sucks
frown.gif


Apparently that plant produces 14% of the power for MA according to the Wiki on it. I couldn't get over how small it is though, it has only a single 690MW reactor
shocked.gif
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
They just announced Pilgrim nuclear will shut down. The whiny executive said it can't compete with state subsidized solar and wind. The guys a dunce.



That sucks
frown.gif


Apparently that plant produces 14% of the power for MA according to the Wiki on it. I couldn't get over how small it is though, it has only a single 690MW reactor
shocked.gif


They're cheap bastages running a nuke plant. Not a good combination.

They only paid 100mil when Boston Edison auctioned it.
 
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
I don't know what China is doing with nuclear plants, but so far coal power is not slowing down, and the environmental effects are very striking.

I think in North America people take the environment somewhat for granted and then complain about environmental laws. If you have to live in dangerous smog like in Beijing you might have a different opinion of coal power or strict emission testing for cars.


I think they were building half of all the new plants in the world going online. Yes, they still have a massive amount of dirty coal plants because of their dedicated pursue of GDP, and at least up to a few years ago their factory towns had rolling blackout because of the lack of power.
 
China ARE retiring buckets of old dirty plants built in the '50s and '60s with their new plants (equipped with scrubbers), of higher thermal efficiency than anything recently build in the US (or Oz).
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
China ARE retiring buckets of old dirty plants built in the '50s and '60s with their new plants (equipped with scrubbers), of higher thermal efficiency than anything recently build in the US (or Oz).
They great returns on the lobby money aren't spending trillions of dollars being the policeman of the middle east as well as giving the defense contractors
 
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
And DDT killed how many eagles?

Do you know saving thousands Bald Eagles by banning production/sale/use of DDT worldwide, this ban causes millions African died of malaria disease ?

It is okay to completely ban DDT in America, we can use other methods(expensive) to control mosquito, but for poor countries in Africa DDT was the best they can afford to reducing deaths by malaria causes by mosquito.

If you do some research about DDT, you will find that we pressured UN Health Organization to ban DDT back in the '70, even someone did warn that the effect of the ban will cause millions to die of malaria in Africa. We ignored it because we think that saving 1 bald eagle is worth more than the life of thousands poor African.

Every time I saw someone mention about DDT I felt so sad. Exchanging 1 bald eagle for thousands life is not what a human being should do.

It's not nice to bring up such an inconvenient truth. Now we have been told that the so called "silent spring" tests were rigged by depriving birds in the test of the calcium they needed for strong egg shells so the blame could rest on "DDT".
I remember the tests on the birds. Sad the majority of people are so uninformed. Worked well for global warming as well.
 
All companies should be held to the same standards. If oil companies get fined huge amounts for killing birds, so should solar and wind companies. nuff said.
 
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Around me there are few birds out where the windfarms are seeing as they are in the middle of corn fields. And most that are are non native pest.
 
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