Birds and Bats killed by Wind Energy Systems

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


You can see how the 'nukes respond to the turbines dumping power on the grid.


No I don't think that's what's happening there.

You need to find the article connected to that graph and explain what the graph means. The replaced generation doesn't even match. Nukes don't run up and down all day like that.


Fair enough, I'll link the article.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Both you guys are dangerous. Just stick to bearings and installing windows and networks.

Engineering deserves respect. Linking to garbage articles and filling out formulas on engineering tool box isn't engineering.

Its really insulting to us that do this for a living.


....and there you go being "yourself" again. Not satisfied with a fun and civil exchange you need to turn into the biggest **** on the planet... Again. Does it ever tire you being this miserable? Because I know it tires me trying to pretend you aren't just a giant [censored] and instead are capable of civil discussion

 

[OVERKILL]

http://nuclear-economics.com/12-nuclear-flexibility/

The graph:

Quote:
The Bruce CANDU nuclear units have the capability to lower electrical output while maintaining full reactor power. This is done by bypassing steam turbines and dumping steam to the condenser to lower the electrical output of the steam turbine generators. Each of the eight Bruce units has a rated capacity of about 760 MW and each unit can provide 300 MW of flexible nuclear operation.

Bruce Power’s 2,400 MW of flexible nuclear output is used by the Ontario market operator to balance the Ontario system when there is low demand and high wind generation. The figure above shows flexible nuclear operation during 4 to 10 September 2013. The Bruce flexible nuclear generation was used to balance Ontario system with a nuclear output reduction of about 2,000 MW in the early morning of Sunday 8 Sep 2013.

The ramp rate (i.e., how fast can electrical output be increased or decreased) of a CANDU unit using steam bypass is up to 10% of full power per minute. This is greater than the ramp rate of CCGT units (i.e., about 5% of full power per minute) and better than the design ramp rate for the EPR and AP1000 advanced nuclear units (i.e., about 5% of full power per minute).

In the NEI brainstorm session, nuclear industry participants noted that U.S. light water reactors have the technical capacity for steam bypass, but do not currently use this equipment for operating flexibility.

If this steam bypass operating flexibility were used at U.S. nuclear plants, these plants might be able to reduce or eliminate payments to the market operator to remain at full operation during negative price periods. The benefit of flexible operation might be enough to keep a unit in operation that would have been retired early.



And from earlier in the text to explain WHY this is done:

Quote:
Short-term nuclear operating flexibility may allow a nuclear power plant to operate more profitably in response to short-term negative market prices.

A negative spot market price is an economic signal that generators should reduce output.

Some generators may have short-run marginal costs (and bids into the electricity market) that are negative. For example, a wind generator may receive tax or renewable credits that are linked to actual project output. A rational market bidding strategy for this wind generator is a negative bid equal to the total tax and renewable credits. This wind generator will operate profitably if the electricity spot market price is greater than the project’s negative bid.

Other generators, including hydroelectric generators and nuclear power plants, may have a short-run marginal cost of zero. These generators want to operate at all times and usually bid into the market as “price takers.” This bidding approach requires the market to take all power produced by the generator and pay the generator the prevailing spot market price for that power.
The price-taker bidding approach is a way to ensure base load operation for a nuclear power plant in the new electricity market environment. So long as electricity market prices are greater than zero, a nuclear power plant bidding into the market as a price taker earns some net revenue in each trading period that can be applied to cover fixed costs.


And I think the simple explanation as to why the numbers pulled from the 'nukes are higher than the output of the wind turbines is that Bruce isn't the only nuke plant in the province (as I already noted, we have three big ones) and that there is also HydroElectric to factor in. Bruce is "fast response" and so it drops 2K MW off the grid whilst Darlington and Pickering make up the difference between the wind turbine output and the needs of the grid.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
You need to find the article connected to that graph and explain what the graph means. The replaced generation doesn't even match. Nukes don't run up and down all day like that.


Little bit of critical though turtle...demand is not a straight line over that week (you did grasp that it's a week, not a day, I hope), so the peaks don't have to match and be inverse of each other.

Throw in the wind blowing on a weekend, and what do you get ?

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Its really insulting to us that do this for a living.


Do what ?

make stuff up to suit whatever you are on about on any given day ?

 

[turtlevette]

That must be an experiment since it lasts for about a week. What a waste, dumping 300mw of steam. Stupid.

But its the only way to do it. You can't ramp a reactor or coal boiler like that, so you stay at full power and dump excess steam.

Thanks for the rest of the article.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
But its the only way to do it. You can't ramp a reactor or coal boiler like that, so you stay at full power and dump excess steam.


turtle,
that's not the case in any way shape or form for a coal boiler.

30% to 105% CMR is a typical operating range...some are specced for 20%.

Without running at full power and dumping the excess to condenser...again., stop with the made up nonsense.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
That must be an experiment since it lasts for about a week. What a waste, dumping 300mw of steam. Stupid.

But its the only way to do it. You can't ramp a reactor or coal boiler like that, so you stay at full power and dump excess steam.

Thanks for the rest of the article.



And that's all you needed to do, ask for the article. No personal attacks necessary.

Shannow and I are just as intelligent as you are. Insults don't get us anywhere on a topic that is quite frankly pretty darn fun to discuss! Now of course we all have our areas of expertise and mine certainly isn't power generation and I'm quite upfront about that, but I am quite fond of Nuclear power and so when an opportunity to display what we Canucks are doing that might be a bit different from you guys I expect to be able to present that information and not be lambasted as an idiot who should stick with what he does for a living because I didn't include a citation.

I am more than capable of understanding the concepts being discussed and if something isn't clear or it isn't something that I'm familiar with I will either simply ask or go and research it. Perhaps both. I'm certainly not afraid to ask questions to garner a better understanding of a particular subject, lack of knowledge isn't lack of intelligence. I expect you can agree with that.

I'm not dismissive of your posts and I don't personally attack you. I would kindly request the same in return.

Now, regarding your post above, the graph shows a week but there is nothing in the article to indicate that this was an experiment, the description is that this is regular practice with this particular plant due to the capability described and makes economic sense in the context of the wind turbines dumping power on the grid. I believe the economic aspect is sufficiently explained in the second part of my quote from the article, though it is gone over more completely if you read the entire piece.

I agree that "dumping steam" when looked at as just that seems silly, but it is a way of dealing with the power dumped on the grid from the highly subsidized generators like wind and solar which make a "profit" due to those subsidies as long as their bid is lower than the market price.

This is why the province of Ontario has no bloody money, because we've subsidized wind and solar out the wazoo and with all the incentives going on, and the necessity to keep all the base loads operational on TOP of that, we've created a massive "green debt" that does absolutely friggin' NOTHING! As you can see from the graph, not dumping, Bruce has a wider fast/reactive ramp range than the wind turbines have total output.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
But its the only way to do it. You can't ramp a reactor or coal boiler like that, so you stay at full power and dump excess steam.


turtle,
that's not the case in any way shape or form for a coal boiler.

30% to 105% CMR is a typical operating range...some are specced for 20%.

Without running at full power and dumping the excess to condenser...again., stop with the made up nonsense.


Ive always understood ramping a boiler like that causes thermal stress, cracks creeping and other problems. No wonder theyre retiring that coal plant. Its a smoking pile of junk.

If your systems were big enough the wind inputs wouldn't matter that much. I doubt we see any any frequency change when a 500mw unit comes up.

Wind is minute to minute. I can't believe the Canadians have nukes chasing that.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette


Wind is minute to minute. I can't believe the Canadians have nukes chasing that.




Technically we have one nuke chasing that, and this is Ontario. Other provinces may be using Hydro Electric or other means. As I mentioned earlier, Ontario has 14,000MW of installed Nuclear capacity, it is the staple of power generation in the province so I'm not surprised that it was the avenue that was chased here.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


I'm not dismissive of your posts and I don't personally attack you. I would kindly request the same in return.


I'm dismissive because the both of you have a history of political motivations in you're discussions. You post stuff I don't think you even believe to support some right wing philosophy.

I don't see how anyone can argue with clean power that doesn't have fuel costs. But somehow you guys find a way. I don't have the patience. And I'm OK if you think I'm a ****. I don't care what you guys think of me. This is not a support group.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette

I'm dismissive because the both of you have a history of political motivations in you're discussions. You post stuff I don't think you even believe to support some right wing philosophy.


It is all political, all sides. There's nothing that isn't. You have your own motivations, [censored] the green energy movement itself is political! It's a huge money sink up here!

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I don't see how anyone can argue with clean power that doesn't have fuel costs.


And who would be doing that? I'm a HUGE advocate of hydro electric, something we have tons of up here. Quebec is probably the best example of exploiting this to their benefit.

What I have issue with is the green energy AGENDA, not the idea of clean power. We've had clean power forever with water and in places that flowing water is plentiful and is already dammed upgrading those dams makes FAR more sense than destroying farm land for a solar field of putting up some 2MW wind turbines that make power every once and a while. But that's exactly what happens, not because it is logical, but because it is inline with the "green agenda" which is a hugely political topic.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
But somehow you guys find a way.


That's simply misconstruing our positions because your leanings are the other direction.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I don't have the patience.


Oh, I've noticed. You don't have the patience for much. It makes you very hard to talk to.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
And I'm OK if you think I'm a ****. I don't care what you guys think of me. This is not a support group.


You are right, it isn't. However, it IS a DISCUSSION forum, and the rules of discussion and debate generally revolve around adhering to the subject matter and debating it and the positions surrounding it rather than resorting to personal attacks which generally indicate that a person has run out of intelligent things to say and would rather attack somebody for who they are rather than tackle the more difficult subject of what they've said.

Now, I know you are a smart person so I chalk up your personal attacks to laziness and being an [censored] rather than the inability tackle the subject matter. However, you continue to engage us in these topics and so regardless of how you feel about our "leanings" and the fact that our positions may be in some respects contrary to your own, you seem to want to discuss them regardless. So that being the case then the rules of discourse apply. So no, this isn't a support group and I don't expect you to slap me on the rear and say "good job Timmy" but at the same time I expect you to refrain from targeting me or Shannow personally when you are frustrated. I don't know what this requires you doing on your end but it would certainly be advantageous for you in terms of your participation here if you could take a breather, drink or whatever and relax before responding to some of these things. It would allow you to formulate something coherent and worthy of discussion rather than just work to get people's backs up which doesn't get us anywhere.

 

[turtlevette]

Its the internet expert in everything that irritates me. People now think experience, certifications and degrees are outdated when you can simply google something and be an internet expert in minutes. Its an insult to guys who have sat thru classes for hours done homework problems, worked in a field for years, written papers and journals and such.

But yea, the new additude is that everyone is special and all deserve a throphy, recognition and respect. And I'm anti social if I don't buy into that.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Its the internet expert in everything that irritates me. People now think experience, certifications and degrees are outdated when you can simply google something and be an internet expert in minutes. Its an insult to guys who have sat thru classes for hours done homework problems, worked in a field for years, written papers and journals and such.


No argument from me there. However I think the things that you and I disagree on aren't the technical points (where the exchanges when you aren't tossing knives have been decent) but rather the philosophical aspect with respect to politics and how that plays into how these things pan out.

It is easy to just take my position as one that opposes clean power and dismiss it but as I've tried to articulate numerous times that's not representative my position at all. I'm not opposed to some of this stuff when it is self-sufficient and can stand on its own. If you've got an arid valley with wind blowing through it 24/7 and not a river in sight, then sure, put up some wind turbines! However, if you've got 5 hydro electric dams that are 100 years old and power most of the city, spending 40 million dollars on a 10MW 200 acre solar field is retarded. Upgrade the bloody dams!

That's where the political/social aspect comes into play. It isn't the decision that necessarily makes sense, it is the decision that gives you the right "image" and that's wrong. That's not what this should be about.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
But yea, the new additude is that everyone is special and all deserve a throphy, recognition and respect. And I'm anti social if I don't buy into that.


Again, agreed. I'm generally regarded as being pretty antisocial myself and nobody losing creates a society of entitlement where everybody "gets the prize" regardless of how badly they stink. However, I don't believe that's relevant to the issues with interactions we are having here, which are rooted more in the frustration of differing viewpoints and political leanings than any shortcomings in being able to tow the line.

I don't expect you to be nice. I just want you to curb the insults.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I just want you to curb the insults.


I could very quickly pull up posts by both of you that have a tone of arrogance and smugness. Lots of them. Work on yourself. I'll work on me.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I just want you to curb the insults.


I could very quickly pull up posts by both of you that have a tone of arrogance and smugness. Lots of them. Work on yourself. I'll work on me.



I definitely come off at times as arrogant. I also definitely come off at times as smug. I'm quite fond of myself and I'm not going to curb that anytime soon. However I do make it a point to TRY and not directly insult people and that's exactly what you do. You skip arrogant and smug and jump directly to condescending [censored]

See, the thing is that I DO try. I KNOW how I come across on occasion and I've worked to reel that in over the years. You saying "I'll work on me" doesn't fill me with confidence that you actually will. You seem to enjoy being a curmudgeon and while I'm sure there are people that find that endearing, I've yet to meet one.

You and I have discussed this before and I HAVE seen you put an effort into it for a few good stints. But you seem to have, for whatever reason, chosen to be miserable again for the last little bit. I don't know if it is just general frustration, frustration with people on BITOG or something external and it is quite frankly none of my [censored] business, I know that, but whatever it is, it definitely has affected how you post

 

[Shannow]

Make sure that you check the posts leading up to them first, as to why I've responded such...usually to being baited, called a liar, or unqualified...

Anyway, while we are there, talking of my "stupid" links.

I make an engineering statement, based on quals and quarter centrury of stuff, and get told I'm wrong, usually based on "feeling", with nothing to counter it, no proof.

I pull something up to demonstrate the principal or fact, then get labelled as always posting other's work, or an internet expert.

There is honestly no way to demonstrate any point...my quals don't count, and neither do the links.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


. But you seem to have, for whatever reason, chosen to be miserable again for the last little bit. I don't know if it is just general frustration, frustration with people on BITOG or something external and it is quite frankly none of my [censored] business, I know that, but whatever it is, it definitely has affected how you post

I would guess its weather related. I'd have to chart rainy, windy cloudy days vs complaints. I haven't seen the sun since the middle of last week.

Very happy since I've not licked anyone's boots in 2 years. Self employed inventor.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette

Very happy since I've not licked anyone's boots in 2 years. Self employed inventor.


That's cool to be self sufficient like that.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Other provinces may be using Hydro Electric or other means.

We have more than enough fossil fuels to keep us going in Saskatchewan for a long time.

There is hydroelectric, too, but this isn't Ontario. There was work on one wind farm, and it's already got a lot of NIMBYism happening, anyhow. Whether it's a nuclear power plant, wind or solar farms, natural gas, or more coal, there's always someone to scream and start a court case.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I don't see how anyone can argue with clean power that doesn't have fuel costs.

There are always capital costs. Nuclear power would be great in this province, given that we have more than enough uranium. The fuel matter in power doesn't help, but capital costs can be crippling enough, aside from fuel.

 

[turtlevette]

I've been thinking about the Canadians dumping energy for the sake of frequency and or meeting interchange schedules. The only reason historically we've been so tight on 60 hz was because of motorized clocks. I could envision a new operating philosophy to just dump whatever is made by wind and solar into the system. Power is going to be exponential as frequency rises, so I don't envision huge excursions. Going nuts to balance the thing seems counter productive and inefficient.

Working on protective relays at a wind farm in Maine, i'd look up and see 60 MW. A few minutes later I'd see 0. We have to figure out a way to efficiently harness that. But again, on a system this big I doubt there is any special attempt to balance that. Its just too small to affect the system.