Anyone add an oil filter to a predator 459cc

[oil pan 4]

I have a predator 459cc powered DR wood chipper. I predator swapped it after I throughly destroyed the original engine by shattering the crank shaft. I fixed that annoying crank shaft shattering issue by converting it to belt drive.
The engine lives in a high dust application and seems this would be an ideal application for an oil filter.
Also it appears these engines don't have roller bearings, the crank just rides on the aluminum casing.
It would just be a bypass filter, bleeding a tiny bit of the oil off the pressure circuit and returning it to the crank case. Nothing fancy.

 

[bmod305]

How about improving the air filter system to eliminate the dust from getting into the engine in the first place. Donaldson makes a ton of them.

 

[Lubener]

You are expecting too much from a cheap, low cost engine. If you change the oil regularly, you are doing the best at adding to its longevity. A bypass filter will not add much and you need to add a pump to circulate the oil in and out of the filter.

 

[oil pan 4]

You are expecting too much from a cheap, low cost engine. If you change the oil regularly, you are doing the best at adding to its longevity. A bypass filter will not add much and you need to add a pump to circulate the oil in and out of the filter.

It has a pressured oil system like many modern small engines. I wouldn't be trying to add an oil filter if the oil just sat there and relied on being splashed around. It makes 50psi of oil pressure.

 

[oil pan 4]

How about improving the air filter system to eliminate the dust from getting into the engine in the first place. Donaldson makes a ton of them.

When they make a filter for it I'll probably buy it.

 

[dnewton3]

Interesting concept; adding a BP to a non-filtered OPE engine.

The question is this ... how will you know if it helps or not? There's a difference between knowing and guessing, after all.

- first establish a baseline; get several UOAs perhaps every 5 hours apart so that you'll know the current condition. (30 samples are required for reliable data to know the variation and any trending)
- then install the BP filter, and start taking UOAs again; 30 more about 5 hours apart
- you can then compare/contrast the results; then you'll know for sure if this plan is of benefit or not.

The reason you must do so many samples is because there's no history of the engine series we'd know of to understand the macro-data conditions. So you have to establish the micro-data conditions unique to your piece of equipment.

 

[BigCahuna]

If I was going to try something with your setup, here's what I would do. Being it's operated in a high dust environment, I would related the air filter. Possibly with a piece of plastic pipe a few feet away from the heavy dust. And add a air filter at least twice the size it has now. There's no real way for the dust to enter the engine, besides getting sucked in the air filter. A washable filter would be a good thing, so every once in a while knocking the dust out and giving it a hosing, will keep her going. Just another idea.,,,

 

[oil pan 4]

Interesting concept; adding a BP to a non-filtered OPE engine.

The question is this ... how will you know if it helps or not? There's a difference between knowing and guessing, after all.

- first establish a baseline; get several UOAs perhaps every 5 hours apart so that you'll know the current condition. (30 samples are required for reliable data to know the variation and any trending)
- then install the BP filter, and start taking UOAs again; 30 more about 5 hours apart
- you can then compare/contrast the results; then you'll know for sure if this plan is of benefit or not.

The reason you must do so many samples is because there's no history of the engine series we'd know of to understand the macro-data conditions. So you have to establish the micro-data conditions unique to your piece of equipment.

I send UOA to blackstone labs for my wife's car as their's virtual no data on how GDI hybrids beat up their oil so I'm familiar with the process.
For this 459cc engine I could fill the engine oil real good, run it a bit, pull an sample before the filter goes on as its only got about 2 hours on the break in oil. Install the filter try not to add a bunch of fresh oil between filling the oil filter and taking the sample then run it for another 2 or 3 hours and send them both in. If there's not enough different to make a difference then I know it will be a waste of time.
But i have noticed unfiltered small engines typically recommend 25 to 50hr oil changes and filtered small engines go 100, 125, to as much as 200hrs. And the filtered engines always last longer if the oil gets occasionally changed. I found that for harsh home use, say mowing several acres to 10 acres, a filtered engine typically always out lasts the mower where an unfiltered small engine the engine going bad is why the mower gets junked.

 

[oil pan 4]

If I was going to try something with your setup, here's what I would do. Being it's operated in a high dust environment, I would related the air filter. Possibly with a piece of plastic pipe a few feet away from the heavy dust. And add a air filter at least twice the size it has now. There's no real way for the dust to enter the engine, besides getting sucked in the air filter. A washable filter would be a good thing, so every once in a while knocking the dust out and giving it a hosing, will keep her going. Just another idea.,,,

I still might do that, but not right now. I have a sheet metal filter housing off my 720cc Kubota tractor that takes Donaldson filters.

 

[dnewton3]

I send UOA to blackstone labs for my wife's car as their's virtual no data on how GDI hybrids beat up their oil so I'm familiar with the process.
For this 459cc engine I could fill the engine oil real good, run it a bit, pull an sample before the filter goes on as its only got about 2 hours on the break in oil. Install the filter try not to add a bunch of fresh oil between filling the oil filter and taking the sample then run it for another 2 or 3 hours and send them both in. If there's not enough different to make a difference then I know it will be a waste of time.
But i have noticed unfiltered small engines typically recommend 25 to 50hr oil changes and filtered small engines go 100, 125, to as much as 200hrs. And the filtered engines always last longer if the oil gets occasionally changed. I found that for harsh home use, say mowing several acres to 10 acres, a filtered engine typically always out lasts the mower where an unfiltered small engine the engine going bad is why the mower gets junked.

Honestly, I don't think the venture is worth the effort, because the costs of doing the "experiment" proof (UOAs) would eat up any potential savings. But I suggested it because it's important to "know" (not guess) if the experiment worked.

Another option would be to do the before/after trials and get some PC (particle count) data. That would imply a sense of benefit if the data showed reasonable improvement.

But even the BP system itself wouldn't be cheap. I'm sure you're aware of this, but let's enumerate it for anyone not familiar with the process:
- find a port to tap into the pressure circuit
- get a port-tap device (threaded hose barb or hard-line)
- buy and find a place to install a filter mount; one that would include a restriction orifice to slow the flow rate
- buy a decent quality BP filter (these are not cheap no matter what the brand)
- find or create a port to return the oil flow
- buy hoses and fittings to complete the oil circuit
- then start into the UOA and/or PC process (more expense).
Honestly, shorter OCIs would just be cheaper and easier, than doing all the above. Unless you're just into the joy of tinkering; that's got some intangible merit for many folks.

A better quality air filter (as others suggest) would probably pay off a better ROI and be easier to do.


*********

My general point is that doing the experiment could be fun, but if you want it to have true meaning and credibility on BITOG, you have to be able to prove it's merit, not just brag about something with some pictures, which validates nothing.

DATA is king; the rest is just bench-racing.

 

[oil pan 4]

I have multiple predator 459cc engines in different applications.
Ones a stump grinder, one is a wood chipper and I'll probably make a 459cc air compressor.
An oil filter will also act as a bit of an oil cooler I know the oil gets really hot. A cooler wouldn't hurt.

A bypass system would be cheap for me. I already have the engine set up and running an oil pressure gauge. I know I have a remote dual oil filter setup in my junk collection for PH8 style filters somewhere. I'm not going to actually put a real 2 or 3 micron bypass filter on, juat a normal off the shelf wix oil filter or something like that. The most expensive part would be a 12x1.5mm to 4an adaptor nipple which I already bought. Main expense would be oil test.

 

[Rand]

I would probably just make some sort of air filter pre filter.
If I was worried about junk in the oil, I'd change the oil more often... maybe once a year instead of every 3 years.

adding complexity adds failure points.. also have to have the right size orifice to not reduce the oil flow the the engine significantly.. which might be different than expected if your oil is 280F on a summer day.

 

[oil pan 4]

I have multiple predator 459cc engines in different applications.
Ones a stump grinder, one is a wood chipper and I'll probably make a 459cc air compressor.
An oil filter will also act as a bit of an oil cooler I know the oil gets really hot. A cooler wouldn't hurt.

A bypass system would be cheap for me. I already have the engine set up and running an oil pressure gauge. I know I have a remote dual oil filter setup in my junk collection for PH8 style filters somewhere. I'm not going to actually put a real 2 or 3 micron bypass filter on, juat a normal off the shelf wix oil filter or something like that. The most expensive part would be a 12x1.5mm to 4an adaptor nipple which I already bought. Main expense would be oil test.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Interesting concept; adding a BP to a non-filtered OPE engine.

The question is this ... how will you know if it helps or not? There's a difference between knowing and guessing, after all.

- first establish a baseline; get several UOAs perhaps every 5 hours apart so that you'll know the current condition. (30 samples are required for reliable data to know the variation and any trending)
- then install the BP filter, and start taking UOAs again; 30 more about 5 hours apart
- you can then compare/contrast the results; then you'll know for sure if this plan is of benefit or not.

The reason you must do so many samples is because there's no history of the engine series we'd know of to understand the macro-data conditions. So you have to establish the micro-data conditions unique to your piece of equipment.

Yes, the magical 30 samples. So many who do not understand meaningful statistics don’t comprehend the weight of veracity this gives to the data. You’re no longer guessing.

 

[oil pan 4]

I would probably just make some sort of air filter pre filter.
If I was worried about junk in the oil, I'd change the oil more often... maybe once a year instead of every 3 years.

adding complexity adds failure points.. also have to have the right size orifice to not reduce the oil flow the the engine significantly.. which might be different than expected if your oil is 280F on a summer day.

I have a needle valve in my plumbing collection I don't want to use for this project but I can. I'll try my smallest drill bit which I believe is a 0.025'' and see if that makes a noticeable oil pressure drop hot at idle. At full speed it will make 50psi no problem as longas I'm not running wide open 4an plumbing.

 

[thastinger]

Wouldn't be difficult to do. I'm not familiar with these engines but if you know it makes 50PSI then there must be a pressure port you can access, so use that as supply and put the return to the drain connection. If I was gonna do all that, I would add an external cooler as well.

 

[oil pan 4]

Wouldn't be difficult to do. I'm not familiar with these engines but if you know it makes 50PSI then there must be a pressure port you can access, so use that as supply and put the return to the drain connection. If I was gonna do all that, I would add an external cooler as well.

They do it's got a 1/8npt low oil pressure switch and I already added a tee to install an oil pressure gauge.

 

[thastinger]

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Since you're doing a custom fit, you'll have to adapt things anyways. The remote filter mounts cost almost what a new engine would for that application (bit of a joke but not much).

 

[meep]

If you’ve already got it tapped for a pressure gauge, I’d probably be “game on” IF weight isn’t an issue AND long run intervals are important.

 

[oil pan 4]

If you’ve already got it tapped for a pressure gauge, I’d probably be “game on” IF weight isn’t an issue AND long run intervals are important.

Oh it already weights like 400lb, weight isn't a problem. I can't move it with out wheels on it.