Aluminum 2015 F-250??

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
Aluminum is the right material for modern vehicles. Period,

Your comparing a Ford pick up to a modern tens of million dollar jet? Not realistic.
What grade of aluminum does the plane use? it is riveted and its shell has only 3 shapes cylindrical and flat or slightly curved.
How many times are aircraft inspected and corroded panels are found? A lot more than you would like us to believe. They corrode and corrode plenty!

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies...083-30_Ch06.pdf

The rivets are exposed and other than take off and landing in an area that use chemicals are not subjected to any sort of road salt.
They do use anti corrosion compounds in aircraft and the paint is Imron or other specialty paint. I buy Corban 22 for rustproofing, it is approved for aircraft wheel housings.
Imron was tried decades ago for car refinishing and found not only too costly but hazardous to health. look up Isocyanate.

The use of aluminum is a direct result of mandated fuel economy nothing more or less. Aluminum parts and removable panels is one thing but not the main structure of the car.
For a mass produced vehicle this is probably the worst material.




Airliners have been produced from 3003 aluminum. It's cheap, corrosion resistant, easy to form into compound curves and retains it's shape quite well. Sure, after 40 years, it corrodes. I'm sure the alloy chosen for automotive use will have similar properties.

As for aircraft not having compound curves, your kidding right? My Cessna Cardinal does not have a flat panel anywhere. Each fuselage panel contains a compound curve. And, many aircraft were produced with ZERO corrosion protection what-so-ever. They do operate in harsh conditions. You may forget that it's cold at altitude. Upon descent, that cold metal, in contact with warm, moist air, forms surface moisture over the entire surface. And, this happens on each flight. After 30 or 40 years of this, sure some corrosion forms.

Not to mention, many aircraft spend time flying the shoreline. Salt literally drips off aircraft located here in West Palm Beach, Florida. You are absolutely incorrect about the road salt being more severe.

 

[Trav]

Argue with the FAA not me.
No offense but I don't buy it for a second that an aircraft sees even remotely the kinds of corrosion from salt and chemicals a car in the salt belt sees.
What you are saying sounds good but from what i see daily doesn't inspire much confidence that this vehicle will be less corrosion resistant that its steel counterpart.
We see aluminum parts all day on vehicles that have been damaged with salt.
Brake calipers, radiators, thermostat housings, alternator cases, pump housings, etc.

I just replaced my Yukon Denali suspension air compressor that GM located right behind the drivers rear wheel; It is all aluminum casting and was eaten away all the way down to the motor.
Thats not to say steel would fair any better but certainly not any worse.

You are making aluminum out to be something it isn't, it is light but far from corrosion resistant. It can be strong depending on the alloy but how much is Ford going to spend on each truck?
As for the Cessna i just looked at a picture of one where are the compound curves? Nothing more than curved from what i can see on the riveted exterior panels.
I don't see any hard body lines.
BTW all the rivets for the exterior panels are accessible from the outside of the panels correct?

The point i was making is not whether aluminum can be shaped or not of course it can but how will the compound curves and deep body lines effect the repair cost?
Can the same hammer and dolly and plastic filler still be used and adhere properly?

If aircraft are so corrosion resistant why do they sell special FAA approved anti corrosion compounds? Every case i buy of of 22 comes with FAA certs.

http://www.zipchem.com/products/index.aspx?id=MTAwMQ==

I agree its great and easy if you want the truck to have visibly riveted body panels holding it together. Wait didn't we have that already with the original Land Rover.
I say wait and see. When a company like Audi is backing away from this material for vehicle construction after such a long time you know something isn't right.
Its a case of repair cost or suitability or both. I have nothing against aluminum or composites but they are far from the be all and end all as GM found out years ago.
Anyone remember how the plastic panels on the dust buster vans and Saturns were going to revolutionize the auto industry?

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies...083-30_Ch06.pdf

http://www.forbes.com/sites/baldwin/2014/01/13/dont-put-aluminum-in-my-f-150/

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
You are absolutely incorrect about the road salt being more severe.


I know nada about chemistry but the newest salts seem to be worse, at least going by antedotal reports. Calcium chloride; isn't there a magnesium chloride also?

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
The important thing to note is steel has a 'memory', and wants to go back to the original shape.

Aluminum does not.

Body shops are having to spend hundreds of thousands to get special tools. You cannot use the same tools on an aluminum vehicle due to corrosion issues. Fasteners, etc., just imagine the confusion.

Hack jobs will be everywhere for sure...

The Germans and Honda/Toyota have been using Al for cars for the last decade or so - I recall in a collision repair class I took for a elective that BMW, Audi and Mercedes wants NO welding whatsoever on Al parts or chassis, they call for rivets or structural adhesive. Honda has a section in the Insight/NSX body repair manual with all sorts of special procedures for repair.

And I think a bike is a better comparison to the F-150 than a plane. Bikes see a rough life, and Al isn't the best material for ride quality or longevity in that application.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
100% aluminum. No paint problems, no corrosion problems, 10 years old and expected to be airworthy for another 30 years. That's a lifespan of 40 years. And, yet there are people who don't like aluminum....

12+ years old. No problems

Oh, and here is a local vehicle, made of aluminum, that is quite old, and still safe enough to fly!

Aluminum is the right material for modern vehicles. Period, end of story. It's tough, stiff, corrosion resistant, not difficult to repair, lasts a very long time and enables massive weight savings. In fact, aluminum structures can often be lighter than composites for certain applications.


Their is a bit of a difference between an $18k carpenters pickup and an $18M jet.

Its fine with a high end car, as is carbon fiber. Could Ford build a truck body out of carbotanium? Sure but who would spend $200k for an F150?

The difference is if I hit the side of my bed with a 2x4 a PDR place or a body shop can fix the dent cheaply, will that be the case with aluminum?

I don't really get the concept of a luxury truck, I judge a pickup on the numbers, cost per mile really. Brand doesn't matter.

If I wanted a luxury all aluminum vehicle I'd buy an Audi A8.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: nthach
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
The important thing to note is steel has a 'memory', and wants to go back to the original shape.

Aluminum does not.

Body shops are having to spend hundreds of thousands to get special tools. You cannot use the same tools on an aluminum vehicle due to corrosion issues. Fasteners, etc., just imagine the confusion.

Hack jobs will be everywhere for sure...

The Germans and Honda/Toyota have been using Al for cars for the last decade or so - I recall in a collision repair class I took for a elective that BMW, Audi and Mercedes wants NO welding whatsoever on Al parts or chassis, they call for rivets or structural adhesive. Honda has a section in the Insight/NSX body repair manual with all sorts of special procedures for repair.

And I think a bike is a better comparison to the F-150 than a plane. Bikes see a rough life, and Al isn't the best material for ride quality or longevity in that application.


Thats the point. The don't want you to weld it. So far we have been talking about superficial body panels, what happens in a big hit where it gets past the rockers and into the floor a little?
Can you use normal pulling equipment or cut it across the floor then weld it in or do you swap the entire cab?

hattaresguy makes a great point. This is a 18K (probably a good bit more depending on equipment) truck. Its not a 50+ million G550, 230 million dollar airbus or a 100K Audi.
How much is Ford going to realistically put into the rolling Coke can?

Put too much into it and its not competitive anymore in the biggest market. If the thing looses market share it wont take long for nervous share holders to go down the rope.

I might be over pessimistic and Ford would certainly say i am, what else could they say. They have more or less bet the company on this like Boeing did with the 747.
I predict sales will be great for a few years but once these things hit the used car market and insurance companies are not paying the tab for body work that this may become the least desirable used truck ever made.

JMHO. That and $2 gets me a med coffee.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Just exactly who needed to be woken up here?

I think Ford needs to step up their warranty now. With all the 100k mile warranties 60k is starting to sound a bit lame...


GM is lame losing over 16% of pick truck market share.

 

[tig1]

Ford has been using alum in some body parts for years. My 96 Merc GM had alum trunk and hood. Alum has also been used by the Navy in deck houses(above the main deck) on warships for decades. I welded miles of that stuff in the 70s and early 80s.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy


Their is a bit of a difference between an $18k carpenters pickup and an $18M jet.



I think you mean a $50 million dollar jet......

 

[Cujet]

I just could not help myself. I had to post this image of an old aluminum vehicle. No corrosion, but not a straight line anywhere...

Of course, Ford is not going to go for expensive alloys. This is a very good thing. As more highly alloyed aluminum corrodes faster. Pure aluminum is nearly 100% corrosion proof. In fact, highly alloyed aluminum sheet is often "clad" in a thin layer of pure aluminum. It's called, strangely enough "Alclad". As the pure aluminum layer prevents corrosion.

 

[DuckRyder]

Aluminum is PDRed and otherwise repaired every day in this country, it is not magic.

Even steel panels are bonded vs welded everyday as well.

Repairability is no more of an issue than some of the new UHSS and Boron Steels that have prompted GM and Chrysler to develop certified repairer programs.

I realize these are Ford produced videos, but they do address some of the questions raised...

 

[morris]

yep even chrysler used Aluminum in the early 60s. on the Max Wedge race cars, with Aluminum hood and front fenders. OH and dont the forget the slant 6 in Aluminum block. short lived as it was. in the late 60s at the NHRA world points finals in Tulsa. an Aluminum max wedge car lost his hood in the traps. but NHRA would NOT let him use a steel hood. even Pontiac used Aluminum on race cars.

 

[Trav]

Ford fluff pieces. What else are they going to say? Lets revisit this thread in 5 years.
Its going to be interesting.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Ford fluff pieces. What else are they going to say? Lets revisit this thread in 5 years.
Its going to be interesting.


Agreed, as Ford has really turned on the marketing lately. You Tube has become quite a venue for them.

For decades we have all been the 'beta testers' for the car mfgrs. Nothing has changed much, we'll just need a year or two to see what happens...

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Ford fluff pieces. What else are they going to say? Lets revisit this thread in 5 years.
Its going to be interesting.



Maybe I am reading this wrong.

But are you are using 50 year old examples on why it is a bad idea for Ford to use aluminum?

 

[Trav]

Yes your reading that all wrong.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Ford fluff pieces. What else are they going to say? Lets revisit this thread in 5 years.
Its going to be interesting.


Pretty much, its all speculation until the new trucks have some age on them.

 

[DuckRyder]

So when you say fluff pieces is the allegation that they did not do the durability testing or is it that they are lying about the results?

Note they claim to have delivered aluminum trucks into the field as early as 2009.

 

[tom slick]

2009 was also supposed to bring in a diesel F-150.

 

[JHZR2]

Haven't Grumman truck bodies been aluminum since forever? Aren't they used for heavy work? I'm sure they have been able to be repaired after accidents, not just scrapped.

The way I see this is that even though 1/2 ton trucks are more capable than ever, since they have effectively killed mini pickups in the NA market, and since v6 full size trucks are at least as efficient and economical as the mini trucks ever were, with more utility, this is a way to align the half tons to consumers and push the "pros" who actually use their trucks for work vs occasional hauling, into the more expensive and perhaps more profitable 3/4 ton segment, which also will have more mpg exemptions... Making the fleet fuel economy look better too.