2014 Lincoln Navigator 5.4 V8 ~150kmi, 5000mi UOA AMSOIL 5w-20, TBN depletion?

[Cujet]

I use M1 10W-30 or 10W-40 HM in mine. The local dealer had a rash of chain and phaser issues until they switched to 10-40. Then as if by magic, those problems disappeared. 5000 mile OCI's. Pushing 200K, no issues at all.

 

[The Critic]

I use M1 10W-30 or 10W-40 HM in mine. The local dealer had a rash of chain and phaser issues until they switched to 10-40. Then as if by magic, those problems disappeared. 5000 mile OCI's. Pushing 200K, no issues at all.

I am very skeptical that a franchised Ford dealer would deviate from the OEM viscosity, but even on vehicles outside of warranty.

 

[Panda87]

Yeah, we have a toy hauler that is about 7K when loaded and tanks are full, a boat that is 5500 with the trailer and I sometimes race the truck (it has a Whipple 2.9 supercharger on it). I always run either the M1 E0-40 or Royal Purple HPS 5-30 in it, whichever I have on hand.

Your tranny temps are higher than I would want. I believe you transmission has an internal 170 degree thermostat so it'll try to stay around that temp, do you have an aftermarket tranny cooler or a tranny cooler at all?

The 6R80 has an internal thermostat that begins opening to the cooler circuit at 190 and is fully open at 204. It’s designed to operate at 204 for full efficiency. Yeah, it sounds high as all heck when you first see the number, but it’s the target design temp of it Edit: The towing package on this Navigator has the “Saudi Arabia” HD 9 row transmission cooler on it in tandem with the pass through the radiator which has a 190 degree stat.

Cool to hear about your towing and supercharger! I’m def eyeing a 0w-40 once I run through the HPL 5w-20 I have on hand.

 

[Panda87]

I had one of these motors in a 2010 F150 which unfortunately only made it to 106K. But then you have examples like Crushers which is great! My brother gifted his '07 to his daughter which is at 200K+ and doing fine. I agree with 5w30/0w40 and frequent changes, especially while cleaning it up a bit. Hopefully the HPL EC will help a bit to.

I’m hoping the HPL does some good work in there! I’m running PP 5w-20 with a quart of HPL EC 30 in it now. Hopefully will help prep for the cleaning HPL will do. It looks like it has some pretty decent deposit formation inside from my view of the oil fill hole.

Eventually, I’ll switch once I run through my stock of HPL 5w-20 and establish a baseline of UOAs on it.

 

[Panda87]

A lot of recent formulations are using additive packages with lower SA levels and as a result, TBN's will start lower and stay lower during the duration of a drain. There is also increasing agreement that TBN levels should not be the focal point (as they once were) since they carry less relevance in the modern era of lower Sulphur fuels.

https://www.chevronlubricants.com/content/dam/external/industrial/en_us/sales-material/sales-sheet/ENGINE%20OIL%20ANALYSIS%20UNDERSTANDING%20TAN%20AND%20TBN%2001-28-2019.pdf

Great data! Thank you

 

[Panda87]

Once upon a time these were spec'd for at least 5w-30 but then Ford says 5w-20 fine...Yeah uh ha. 10w-30 or 10w-40 or 5w-40 would be what I'd run since your towing & minimize oil burn off.

Agreed! I’m leaning toward the HPL PPCMO 0w-40 after this for towing for sure.

 

[The Critic]

Agreed! I’m leaning toward the HPL PPCMO 0w-40 after this for towing for sure.

I don’t think viscosity or boutique oil will move the needle much. If you own a 5.4L from that era, you will have to replace that engine at some point.

 

[Panda87]

I don’t think viscosity or boutique oil will move the needle much. If you own a 5.4L from that era, you will have to replace that engine at some point.

Couldn’t that be said of any engine though? Their Achilles heel is the cam phasers and VVT solenoids. Changing the water pump and upgrading to the Melling high volume oil pump while performing a timing service on it solves those for another 150-200k miles. Crusher has one older than mine pushing well over twice the mileage mine has.

 

[The Critic]

Couldn’t that be said of any engine though? Their Achilles heel is the cam phasers and VVT solenoids. Changing the water pump and upgrading to the Melling high volume oil pump while performing a timing service on it solves those for another 150-200k miles. Crusher has one older than mine pushing well over twice the mileage mine has.

Not exactly. A lot of engines do not have terminal issues like the 5.4.

Doing a timing service and oil pump upgrade is only viable if the engine has good oil pressure. My understanding is that many 5.4’s are not good candidates for this work.

 

[Panda87]

Not exactly. A lot of engines do not have terminal issues like the 5.4.

Doing a timing service and oil pump upgrade is only viable if the engine has good oil pressure. My understanding is that many 5.4’s are not good candidates for this work.

It’s not so much predicated on having an already good oil pressure as it is ensuring damage hasn’t already been done to the cam journals via oil starvation. If it has, replacing the heads breathes new life back into the bottom end. The bottom ends of these are their shining points. They’re hard to kill even when running insane amounts of boost.

 

[Crusher]

Those UOAs with the Dual Bypass system are impressive! Are you still running 5w-20 as evidenced in your UOAs or did you switch over to 5w-30? When looking at your UOAs, it would appear that the iron levels were highest at the beginning and trailed off as time went on. Wonder why that is? Really cool data!

Panda87
Thanks for the kind words
I'll try to keep it short, and to the point
I bought the Expedition new in March of 2011
I ran Mobil 1 5w-20 for the 1st 100k miles, changing every 5k-7.5k miles.
After the warranty expired, I installed the Dual Bypass System in Jan 2016 (Sump increased from 7 quarts to 9 quarts) that's a 28.57% increase
I ran Amsoil SS 5w-20 from 100k-250k miles
In Feb 2020 @250k miles I switched to Amsoil SS 5w-30
I'm currently @365k miles
I did my 1st of 15 UOA's in 2016, last one in 2022
It didn't take long to figure out how long the Oil would stay viable.
I typically replaced the full flow filter every 25k miles, and the bypass filter every 75k miles(to make the math work)
Whenever I replaced the filter(s) and got a UOA the TBN would jump to a higher value with the fresh Oil/Additive Package.
Pay Attention, Here's the Money Shot!
A few yrs ago after a dozen plus UOA'S I decided to start draining (thru a PETCOCK)1 Gallon of half spent Oil in between 25k mile Filter Changes, (so at 12.k miles) AND at 25k mile Filter Changes to keep the Add Pack Boosted. When changing both filters and dumping 1 Gallon of half spent Oil at 75k miles the result is approx 6 fresh quarts of Oil in a 9 quart sump.
The Test results from my last 3 UOA'S showed that all the wear metal #s, etc were good, and the last 3 TBN #s were 4.81, 4.62, and 4.49. The Iron was 21, 15, and 13. Range of 10-23 over the vehicle life.
I hope this Helps you!

 

[Brons2]

I would switch immediately to Xw30 at least on this rig. I've never run anything w20 in mine. Mine has never gone down more than halfway down the mark between oil changes, but I don't tow heavy either.

7800 is a lot of weight for these with the relatively limited payload, it's only 1400 lbs payload on mine. Are you sure you're not overloaded? I have the HD tow which specs 9000 lbs max but I don't think I would ever do more than half that. I towed a load of bricks behind me one time and it was horrible. I prefer a 3/4 ton for towing anything bigger than jetskis.

 

[nicholas]

Hey all,
Longtime lurker, first post. For background, this is a 2014 Lincoln Navigator L 4x4 with a 5.4l V8 that I purchased a year ago from a dealership in Indiana, I live in North Alabama. It was purchased with 139k miles on the clock. Runs great and we use it to pull our camper which scales at 7300lbs loaded.

I’ve gone over the vehicle with a fine toothed comb and switched all fluids to Amsoil that could be. Both diffs, transfer case, transmission got a new filter and a 3x drain and fill, power steering, engine oil, brake fluid. Also performed a full suspension and brake system refresh along with new plugs, coils, air intake, coolant flush, new tires, etc.

I assumed the engine had gotten whatever bulk dealership/quick lube oil at OLM intervals for its entire life and wanted to start fresh. Used Amsoil Engine and Transmission Flush for 15 minutes and drained the old oil and replaced with Amsoil 5w-20 as spec’d at 145k miles and performed the UOA at 150k just to see where I was at. Ford manual recommends 5k OCI when towing also.

Towed from Huntsville to Tampa and back this past summer, so that is part of the 5k mileage on this UOA. My concern is the iron level of the UOA and the rapid depletion of the TBN in 5k miles. I’m not sure if remnants of the flush, the towing in 100 degree FL weather, or a combination of factors led to this. Only during towing did it suck down some oil, it hasn’t lost a drop except during that trip. It consumed 1 quart down to Tampa and 1 quart back up. PCV system doesn’t use a valve and has two hoses that connect from each valve cover to each side of the intake.

I took a pic of the inside of the oil fill port (the neck is long, sorry for the poor picture) and it looks like there is some significant deposit formation inside.

Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks!!!

Panda

View attachment 192552View attachment 192553

Looks like a 20 weight is not up to the job you are asking it to do.
Tow with a 30 or 40 next time......
That's high iron for 5k.....and you put 2 quarts into the mix

 

[GON]

A little different perspective. My (recently sold) purchased new 2007 F350 w/ 5.4 3valve. Went 200k miles without any timing chain issues. This truck was used for towing, often at max GVWR cross country, up and down steep grades. Definetly pushed the limits of the 5.4v in a One Ton truck.

Can't tell you why I never had timing chain or related issues. But I can tell you I changed the oil (and filter) every 2,500-3,000 miles with name brand synthetic 5w30 oils. I speculated, with zero proof, that keeping super fresh oil prevented wear of the timing chain and related systems..... but simply a guess......

 

[Panda87]

I would switch immediately to Xw30 at least on this rig. I've never run anything w20 in mine. Mine has never gone down more than halfway down the mark between oil changes, but I don't tow heavy either.

7800 is a lot of weight for these with the relatively limited payload, it's only 1400 lbs payload on mine. Are you sure you're not overloaded? I have the HD tow which specs 9000 lbs max but I don't think I would ever do more than half that. I towed a load of bricks behind me one time and it was horrible. I prefer a 3/4 ton for towing anything bigger than jetskis.

Yeah, I definitely plan to switch to a heavier weight. I currently have a case of HPL 5w-20 I’d like to run through first, then switch out to some of the HPL Premium PCMO 0w-40 and compare samples results.

As for the weight, Yes, I’m sure. It requires a tongue scale to get the tongue weight around 800-825 after load balancing and then I hit the cat scales to make sure I’m not overloaded on either axle or the trailer itself. It tows like a dream with my Equalizer 14k WDH. The 10k Equalizer I had was not up to the task of distribution with the IRS in the rear of the Gator.

 

[Panda87]

A little different perspective. My (recently sold) purchased new 2007 F350 w/ 5.4 3valve. Went 200k miles without any timing chain issues. This truck was used for towing, often at max GVWR cross country, up and down steep grades. Definetly pushed the limits of the 5.4v in a One Ton truck.

Can't tell you why I never had timing chain or related issues. But I can tell you I changed the oil (and filter) every 2,500-3,000 miles with name brand synthetic 5w30 oils. I speculated, with zero proof, that keeping super fresh oil prevented wear of the timing chain and related systems..... but simply a guess......

Changing at 2500-3k has been on my mind as of late. Or at the very least sampling every 2500 to get a picture of engine health and oil loading/tbn depletion. The engine has nearly 160k on it now and pulls strong as an ox while being smoother than cat fur. It’s just these wear numbers giving me a nagging feeling in the back of my mind, lol.