Amsoil SS 5W-20 6251 miles 05 Honda Civic 1.7

[Avery4]

Hello all, this is my first time doing a UOA and I decided to start with my part time daily driver 2005 Honda Civic with the 1.7L VTEC engine and 5 speed manual transmission. I'm not sure of the mileage on the engine since it is a replacement from Japan, but the Amsoil Signature Series 5W-20 and OEM Honda filter has been in use for about 12 months and 6251 miles at the time I took the sample. Most of those miles were cruising on rural roads and interstates on 10-25+ mile trips, it just took me roughly a year to put those miles on it because I have several other cars that I also drive.

I think the high high silicon was likely caused by the Hondabond I used to re seal the oil pump, pan, and valve cover gasket when I changed the timing belt and oil pump O ring in late 2022, so I'm not overly concerned about that for now. The copper and aluminum I'm not sure about, but I don't think it's too concerning?

The oil seems to have held up well judging by the viscosity and it doesn't appear that there's any coolant, moisture, or fuel dilution to speak of. The 450 degree flash point seems quite a bit higher than average, possibly because I rarely idle or take short trips and don't usually shut the engine off before the oil temp is 175+ degrees.

Anyways, just thought I'd share the results of my first ever UOA. I'm really looking forward to hearing your thoughts and feedback as always!

 

[fantastic]

Elevated bushings/bearing and piston wear but that isn't necessarily out of line with the high mileage on this Civic. You might try a 5w-40 to see if that might help w/wear.

 

[Avery4]

Elevated bushings/bearing and piston wear but that isn't necessarily out of line with the high mileage on this Civic. You might try a 5w-40 to see if that might help w/wear.

Good idea, I may try that. Xw-40 oils are approved for that engine in other markets, so it certainly won't hurt to try it.

As I said, I don't know the mileage on this engine since I bought it used from a JDM engine importer back in 2018, but it's likely quite a bit lower than the car.

 

[fantastic]

Good idea, I may try that. Xw-40 oils are approved for that engine in other markets, so it certainly won't hurt to try it.

As I said, I don't know the mileage on this engine since I bought it used from a JDM engine importer back in 2018, but it's likely quite a bit lower than the car.

Ah, understood now about the engine swap. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Avery4]

A couple things I forgot to mention:

1. That engine has a large stainless steel oil to coolant heat exchanger, which I believe is brazed together with copper. I installed it about 4 years ago and thoroughly flushed it before installation, but is it possible that it's still shedding copper ions? I think the only other copper in the engine is the bearings and I don't see them contributing to copper unless the top babbitt/aluminium layer is worn through? The lack of lead and tin makes me question excessive bearing wear.

2. I do have a heavy foot after the oil is hot, which may or may not have contributed to the higher aluminium. Either way, I wouldn't think 8 PPM at that interval is overly concerning and it doesn't sound like Blackstone does either since they suggested checking back after a similar interval rather than a shorter interval.

 

[fantastic]

A couple things I forgot to mention:

1. That engine has a large stainless steel oil to coolant heat exchanger, which I believe is brazed together with copper. I installed it about 4 years ago and thoroughly flushed it before installation, but is it possible that it's still shedding copper ions? I think the only other copper in the engine is the bearings and I don't see them contributing to copper unless the top babbitt/aluminium layer is worn through? The lack of lead and tin makes me question excessive bearing wear.

2. I do have a heavy foot after the oil is hot, which may or may not have contributed to the higher aluminium. Either way, I wouldn't think 8 PPM at that interval is overly concerning and it doesn't sound like Blackstone does either since they suggested checking back after a similar interval rather than a shorter interval.

Good details... could be the copper from this exchanger but we're seeing other higher wear at the same time which leads me to believe it's more than that going on. Blackstone is not comfortable telling you to extend it on your Amsoil but they only recommend 1-2k increases at a time anyways. I doubt it's the cooler & more of the bearings. Yes you have the right idea that it would need to be starting to wear the initial layer to get the softer metal. That's what's wearing here the softer metal. I'm not a fan of those JDM engines due to their type of use. The heavy foot & unknown previous wear on this engine along with these results I'd start with 5w-40 & keep motoring on.

 

[cptbarkey]

Do another UOA at 3k. Silicon is explainable. Perhaps it’s shedding break in materials because it was a never used engine, although unlikely. Most JDM engines I have seen or bought were around 40-60k miles.

 

[Avery4]

Good details... could be the copper from this exchanger but we're seeing other higher wear at the same time which leads me to believe it's more than that going on. Blackstone is not comfortable telling you to extend it on your Amsoil but they only recommend 1-2k increases at a time anyways. I doubt it's the cooler & more of the bearings. Yes you have the right idea that it would need to be starting to wear the initial layer to get the softer metal. That's what's wearing here the softer metal. I'm not a fan of those JDM engines due to their type of use. The heavy foot & unknown previous wear on this engine along with these results I'd start with 5w-40 & keep motoring on.

Thanks for sharing! Before I installed this engine, I pulled the oil pan and checked a couple of the rod bearings and they looked very good-almost new. Also changed the head gasket and valve stem seals and gave everything a good cleaning. As of about a year ago, the compression in all 4 cylinders is about 215 PSI, which is very good. Oil consumption has been pretty consistent at about 1 quart per 6K miles since I've had this engine.

One slightly odd thing is this engine always seemed to have somewhat low oil pressure at hot idle. With the recommended 5W-20 oil at ~185 degrees, it only has around 12 PSI of oil pressure at idle according to my Glowshift electronic gauge. The minimum spec in the service manual is 10 PSI at idle with an oil temp of 176 degrees so it's within spec, it just seems a little low to me although I don't have another D17 to compare it to, so it might be totally normal for these. Oil pressure is good at any RPM above idle (~45 PSI at 2K, ~65 PSI at 3K, and a max of around 82 PSI at redline).

Ignoring the copper for now, is 8 PPM of aluminum and 10 PPM of iron really that high? Like I said, it doesn't seem scary high to me without having any other results to compare it to, but being new to UOA, I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about it as many of the experienced people on this forum are. If that aluminium was coming from the bearings, wouldn't tin and lead also likely be present?

 

[Avery4]

Do another UOA at 3k. Silicon is explainable. Perhaps it’s shedding break in materials because it was a never used engine, although unlikely. Most JDM engines I have seen or bought were around 40-60k miles.

The engine is definitely not still in break in, it's been in use since I got it in 2018. It has been apart near the end of 2022 when I changed the timing belt and some oil seals, which could explain the silicon.

 

[fantastic]

Thanks for sharing! Before I installed this engine, I pulled the oil pan and checked a couple of the rod bearings and they looked very good-almost new. Also changed the head gasket and valve stem seals and gave everything a good cleaning. As of about a year ago, the compression in all 4 cylinders is about 215 PSI, which is very good. Oil consumption has been pretty consistent at about 1 quart per 6K miles since I've had this engine.

One slightly odd thing is this engine always seemed to have somewhat low oil pressure at hot idle. With the recommended 5W-20 oil at ~185 degrees, it only has around 12 PSI of oil pressure at idle according to my Glowshift electronic gauge. The minimum spec in the service manual is 10 PSI at idle with an oil temp of 176 degrees so it's within spec, it just seems a little low to me although I don't have another D17 to compare it to, so it might be totally normal for these. Oil pressure is good at any RPM above idle (~45 PSI at 2K, ~65 PSI at 3K, and a max of around 82 PSI at redline).

Ignoring the copper for now, is 8 PPM of aluminum and 10 PPM of iron really that high? Like I said, it doesn't seem scary high to me without having any other results to compare it to, but being new to UOA, I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about it as many of the experienced people on this forum are. If that aluminium was coming from the bearings, wouldn't tin and lead also likely be present?

The Al is most likely coming from the Aluminum Pistons. Do you know the mileage on this engine? That really may not help us though since Japanese, if that's where it came from, tend to have low mileage but that's because it's all city driving. That's why I don't care for them. Not trying to disparage anything that you've done & you've chosen your best options you see fit. Your lead footed on an old engine with unknown mileage on a 20 grade. I was under the assumption that Honda spec'd a 30 for those once upon a time but I could be wrong on that. A thicker oil would give you more piece of mind & potentially minimize the wear over time. The oil is toast in my opinion due to the silicon level. The Al & Copper are at reasonable levels for the oil contamination. If this is from silicon from gasket maker etc as you mentioned then I'd still want to change it to get that out at this level of 26 ppm. It sounds like your Civic is fairly healthy with those compression readings & the consumption rate is very good. I'd not worry about this thing dying anytime soon since these are know to last a long time. 10 PPM Fe (Iron) is in great condition & potentially why your still getting great compression readings. Thicker oil may increase idle PSI.

 

[Avery4]

The Al is most likely coming from the Aluminum Pistons. Do you know the mileage on this engine? That really may not help us though since Japanese, if that's where it came from, tend to have low mileage but that's because it's all city driving. That's why I don't care for them. Not trying to disparage anything that you've done & you've chosen your best options you see fit. Your lead footed on an old engine with unknown mileage on a 20 grade. I was under the assumption that Honda spec'd a 30 for those once upon a time but I could be wrong on that. A thicker oil would give you more piece of mind & potentially minimize the wear over time. The oil is toast in my opinion due to the silicon level. The Al & Copper are at reasonable levels for the oil contamination. If this is from silicon from gasket maker etc as you mentioned then I'd still want to change it to get that out at this level of 26 ppm. It sounds like your Civic is fairly healthy with those compression readings & the consumption rate is very good. I'd not worry about this thing dying anytime soon since these are know to last a long time. 10 PPM Fe (Iron) is in great condition & potentially why your still getting great compression readings. Thicker oil may increase idle PSI.

That seems like as good of a guess as any considering the lack of other bearing metals on the oil sample. I have no way to know the total mileage on the engine, likely somewhere around 100K assuming I got it with 50K miles since I put about another 50K on it. JDM engines are definitely hit or miss, but I think I got pretty lucky with this one.

The 1.7 always called for 5W-20 in America and anywhere between 0W-20 and 15W-40 globally. The older 1.6 it's based on initially called for 5W-30 here, but was later back spec'd to use 5W-20. My thought was since both the 1.6 and 1.7 have proven to be reliable on 5W-20 and I never see oil temps over 190 with the heat exchanger, it would be the best of both worlds for me- much thinner than a 30 when cold, but still thicker than a 30 at 210-220+ degrees on a stock engine with no oil cooler. Maybe mine just wants even thicker though.

Good to know. As I said, it doesn't seem like Blackstone thought anything terrible was going on either since they didn't suggest shortening the interval. I'm hoping to change the oil this weekend with something thicker like 5W-40, check the air filter, and see how it does next time. I'm not concerned, especially considering the significant possibility of much of that copper coming from the oil cooler, but getting the aluminum and silicon down would be good. I'll ask Blackstone about the likeliness of the oil cooler still shedding copper and report back with what they say.

 

[himemsys]

I'm hoping to change the oil this weekend with something thicker like 5W-40

On my 03 Civic EX, I'm going to switch to Castrol Euro 5W40 next oil change. It is now rated API SP despite being an A3/B4 oil, so my hope is I can use it on all 3 of my vehicles (one of which being API SP would really matter) and eliminate all the leftover partial jugs of different brands and grades that I can't use for a long time.

 

[Avery4]

On my 03 Civic EX, I'm going to switch to Castrol Euro 5W40 next oil change. It is now rated API SP despite being an A3/B4 oil, so my hope is I can use it on all 3 of my vehicles (one of which being API SP would really matter) and eliminate all the leftover partial jugs of different brands and grades that I can't use for a long time.

Not to start yet another thick vs thin thread, but that should work fine. According to owners manuals for Japan and Europe, 5W-40 is suitable for use in all temperature ranges. That said, it obviously wouldn't be ideal for frequent shorter trips where the oil is going to be below operating temp for most of the time the engine is running, especially in cold weather.

Here's the Japanese oil recommendations for the Honda D17. I can't find the European chart at the moment, but it's very similar except it includes 0W-30 and 0W-40 as acceptable year round, 10W-40 with the 10W-30 as acceptable down to -20 degrees C, and 15W-40 as acceptable down to I beleive 0 degrees C if I remember correctly.

 

[himemsys]

Not to start yet another thick vs thin thread, but that should work fine. According to owners manuals for Japan and Europe, 5W-40 is suitable for use in all temperature ranges. That said, it obviously wouldn't be ideal for frequent shorter trips where the oil is going to be below operating temp for most of the time the engine is running, especially in cold weather.

Here's the Japanese oil recommendations for the Honda D17. I can't find the European chart at the moment, but it's very similar except it includes 0W-30 and 0W-40 as acceptable year round, 10W-40 with the 10W-30 as acceptable down to -20 degrees C, and 15W-40 as acceptable down to I beleive 0 degrees C if I remember correctly.
View attachment 200015

Yeah, I was aware of that, though I'd never seen screenshots of the Japanese manual, which is pretty cool. Also, Honda Europe lists 5W40 as a viable option in our 2018 CRV. This was the vehicle I was referring to when I mentioned about the API SP rating that Castrol Euro 5W40 now has.