10k OCI filters

[Triple_Se7en]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
I suppose a thicker can is better if you're using the filter to stop a bullet but it's annoying trying to get a thick open to inspect it.


It's also annoying when I wrap the mounted filter with my wrench tool and the entire filter-center collapses... most recently my mounted Pure Ones.

Some vehicles are designed where I cannot encircle the used filter at it's strongest location. Sometimes I must unscrew the filter at it's weakest location and I need a filter that will not crush.

 

[goodtimes]

As a Fram Empire follower, not a leader yet, I have to go against my bosses and say Fram is lying about their efficiency claims. Because no particle is a perfect sphere therefore no particle is exactly 20 microns. They cannot say 20. The lack of clarity means they are hiding something. They are cooking the books on efficiency, and probably everything else too. I also just drank a bottle of water from Texas that glows in the dark.

 

[Dallas69]

Is trying to find a better filter than a Fram Ultra your goal in life?
K 636,get a grip dude.
Your defense of Purolators is well documented and now you are bringing RP into the fight.
Come on,it's only an oil filter.How do you respond to really important things,like which bottled water is the best?
Use what you want,it's your money,but you will not convince anyone that the Ultra is not a very good filter and the BEST at its price range.
And comparing can thickness to armored vests is silly.It's a filter.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Next week he's going to be backing EAO's over FU. Then it will be M1 over FU. It just doesn't stop with this guy.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
As a Fram Empire follower, not a leader yet, I have to go against my bosses and say Fram is lying about their efficiency claims. Because no particle is a perfect sphere therefore no particle is exactly 20 microns. They cannot say 20. The lack of clarity means they are hiding something. They are cooking the books on efficiency, and probably everything else too. I also just drank a bottle of water from Texas that glows in the dark.


Joking or not, the size ranges tested is pretty common in the filter manufacturing community when testing per ISO 4548-12. There are some pretty sophisticated test machines that automatically count particle sized in real time during the test. One bench testing machine to do just the ISO 4548-12 efficiency testing cost about $225,000.

Thread with Info [Link]

Fram's efficiency claim is no doubt accurate. As someone else mentioned, if it wasn't there would be lawyers from other filter companies sending nasty letters threatening a lawsuit over it. All these big filter manufacturers keep an eye on their competition.

 

[webfors]

Lots of filters can last 10k miles. See my post of a inexpensive cartridge that went 10k miles:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3728673/1/Puro_Classic_L36135_-_pics

 

[901Memphis]

Originally Posted By: Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
I suppose a thicker can is better if you're using the filter to stop a bullet but it's annoying trying to get a thick open to inspect it.


It's also annoying when I wrap the mounted filter with my wrench tool and the entire filter-center collapses... most recently my mounted Pure Ones.

Some vehicles are designed where I cannot encircle the used filter at it's strongest location. Sometimes I must unscrew the filter at it's weakest location and I need a filter that will not crush.


I've never had that problem since I don't over tighten but I imagine you wouldn't be able to easily crush the Fram Ultra can with a strap wrench. Fram Ultra cans are 0.457mm thick and Royal Purple is 0.533mm thick.

 

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
As a Fram Empire follower, not a leader yet, I have to go against my bosses and say Fram is lying about their efficiency claims. Because no particle is a perfect sphere therefore no particle is exactly 20 microns. They cannot say 20. The lack of clarity means they are hiding something. They are cooking the books on efficiency, and probably everything else too. I also just drank a bottle of water from Texas that glows in the dark.


Joking or not, the size ranges tested is pretty common in the filter manufacturing community when testing per ISO 4548-12. There are some pretty sophisticated test machines that automatically count particle sized in real time during the test. One bench testing machine to do just the ISO 4548-12 efficiency testing cost about $225,000.

Thread with Info [Link]

Fram's efficiency claim is no doubt accurate. As someone else mentioned, if it wasn't there would be lawyers from other filter companies sending nasty letters threatening a lawsuit over it. All these big filter manufacturers keep an eye on their competition.

I agree, but the particles are probably jagged or funny shaped, so dwelling on 20 vs 20.1 doesn't matter. I know it was to make the point greater than 20 doesn't mean 60, but can mean 20.0000001.
Everyone here but me has probably read this but I thought it was pretty good:

http://www.fram.com/support/faqs.aspx#tested

I didn't know filters can have anti siphon valves.

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ I hear ya, and apparently the testing machines are sophisticated enough to be able to determine the size of particles in the micron range ... round, jagged or whatever shape they are.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Everyone here but me has probably read this but I thought it was pretty good:

http://www.fram.com/support/faqs.aspx#tested


#3 is the ISO 4548-12 muti-pass efficiency test method.

Multipass Efficiency. This procedure is the most recently developed of the three and is carried as a recommended procedure by both international and US standards organizations. It involves a newer test technology in that automatic particle counters are used for analysis instead of simply weighing the dirt. The advantage of this is that the particle removal performance of the filter can be found for different size particles throughout the filter’s life. The efficiency determined in this test method is an “instantaneous” efficiency, because the number of particles before and after the filter are counted at the same instant. These numbers are then compared to generate an efficiency measurement.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
As a Fram Empire follower, not a leader yet, I have to go against my bosses and say Fram is lying about their efficiency claims. Because no particle is a perfect sphere therefore no particle is exactly 20 microns. They cannot say 20. The lack of clarity means they are hiding something.

No. Further to what ZeeOSix mentioned, that's why they use a testing standard. And, that's why it isn't claiming 100% of particles at any reasonably small size, since that would be ridiculous from a statistical analysis standpoint. And no one ever claims 20 microns exactly (even if using an equals sign). There is always an error bar of some sort.

 

[GMFan]

I've run Purolator Pure Ones to close to 10k miles and will be running my current Fram Tough Guard to similar mileage.

My brother has gone on 10k OCIs on bulk Valvoline oil and Valvoline oil filter (rebadged Purolator classic) for 180k miles now without issue on his 08' Accord 2.4L.

 

[jk_636]

Look I'm not sure why there is all this Haterade being drank around here.

Zeeosix It is this simple. Which rock is larger. One that is 20 feet around or one that is greater than 20 feet around?

When Fram says 99% at >20 microns, that is nothing but underhanded marketing
to swindle those of weak disposition. Yet another reason why I don't use their paper ended products. But I digress...

Example: I make >$20k dollars a year. How much do I make?
Answer: Who knows? There are a lot of numbers GREATER thank 20k.

The same principle stands here with Fram Ultra. It could filter 99% of all particles 60 microns in size and their marketing would still be accurate but not efficient.

It's not about loyalty. It's about quality products that work as advertised. Yes I like Royal Purple filters. Yes I like Purolator. But that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Is Royal Purple the best oil filter option for the OP? If you judge a filter by its build quality, efficiency and life expectancy than the answer is overwhelmingly yes. OP don't take anyone's word for it. Use one Fram, one Puro synthetic and one Royal Purple, then cut them open and see for yourself. You may be surprised at what you find!

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
As a Fram Empire follower, not a leader yet, I have to go against my bosses and say Fram is lying about their efficiency claims. Because no particle is a perfect sphere therefore no particle is exactly 20 microns. They cannot say 20. The lack of clarity means they are hiding something.


Once you start thinking on your own you will leave the Frampire nation rather quickly.

They are absolutely lying about their efficiency claims. Just becuase a Fram representative tells you otherwise doesn't mean much. I have some ocean front property in Arizona. Just ask me about it.

People are so eager to prove the benefits and superiority of the Fram ultra that they make unsubstantiated claims that have led it to become the snake oil of the filter world.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: jk_636
Zeeosix It is this simple. Which rock is larger. One that is 20 feet around or one that is greater than 20 feet around?

When Fram says 99% at >20 microns, that is nothing but underhanded marketing
to swindle those of weak disposition. Yet another reason why I don't use their paper ended products. But I digress...

Example: I make >$20k dollars a year. How much do I make?
Answer: Who knows? There are a lot of numbers GREATER thank 20k.


jk_636 .... dude, just put down the pipe. LoL

Originally Posted By: jk_636
The same principle stands here with Fram Ultra. It could filter 99% of all particles 60 microns in size and their marketing would still be accurate but not efficient.


No, it wouldn't still be accurate because if they say it filters out 99% of all particles greater than 20 microns, then even particles that are very close to 20 microns (ie, call it 20.01 microns) would need to be filtered out within that 99% for the statement to be true.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: jk_636

When Fram says 99% at >20 microns, that is nothing but underhanded marketing to swindle those of weak disposition. Yet another reason why I don't use their paper ended products. But I digress...

Example: I make >$20k dollars a year. How much do I make?
Answer: Who knows? There are a lot of numbers GREATER thank 20k.

The same principle stands here with Fram Ultra. It could filter 99% of all particles 60 microns in size and their marketing would still be accurate but not efficient.

But that's simply false. That's not how physicists, mathematicians, or engineers express themselves. In a mathematical expression, ">" refers to all numbers greater than the number listed, from that number plus an infinitesimal to all the way up the number line.

With your income example, if $20,000 is the line between tax brackets, the government isn't going to care if you make $20,000.01 or one cent less than the next bracket. You're in it, and that's the end of the story.

And, there's nothing to do with Haterade or liking Fram or hating Purolator. I've used many Purolator made filters. I've never used a Fram oil filter. Don't confuse getting called out on the carpet over fiddling with mathematics with hate. If one comes up with mathematical nonsense here, I will call them on it, and that's not something I just started recently.

As for the three filters you mention, I don't care about taking anyone's word for anything. To support one of my suppliers, I'd use a Royal Purple first. A Fram Ultra is a fantastic choice, and my one supplier can get them, but I'm not supporting Walmart and Canadian Tire more than necessary. I'd use a Purolator Synthetic without question, either, but one has to find them, first, and they're essentially history up here.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Garak

And, there's nothing to do with Haterade or liking Fram or hating Purolator.


Exactly ... it's about common sense and logic, and documented facts and evidence.

Usually, when a fanboy sees negative press about his favorite product, he goes a bit wacky.

Those that are not blinded by fanboy-ism see the facts and logic, and go find a product that will replace the one he use to love and find one that will do just as good or a better job than the one that let him down. This is how humans in the world of consumerism usually operate.

 

[jk_636]

I really don't care if this fallacy of filtration is perpetuated or how many people Fram and its BITOG henchmen force the Fram Ultra on.

Basic logic is not hard to understand. If you don't get it by now, it is by choice alone.

Go ahead and use your Fram rock catchers. My engine will be protected by all damaging particles that are above 20 microns!! Go pureone!!!

Had to throw that last part in there to satisfy those who always look for fanboy-isms to blame and extort.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: jk_636
Basic logic is not hard to understand. If you don't get it by now, it is by choice alone.

Apparently, it is. Someone needs to take a calculus class, or at least speak to an engineer, if you don't want to believe mathematicians. They should use beta ratios, at least to give people an excuse to be flummoxed.

I use neither Fram rock catchers nor Fram top of the line stuff. I only use their air filters. I'd love to be using Bosch Premiums once again, but a big tear in the media means the filter can't even catch rocks, let alone 20 micron particles.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: jk_636
Go ahead and use your Fram rock catchers. My engine will be protected by all damaging particles that are above 20 microns!! Go pureone!!!