Toyota 4runner 1GRFE 1350 miles oem fill

[ZO6_Vette]

Pulled a oil sample from my 13 4runner cSt seems a little low.
Anyway here are the results.



Code:


Comments:We don't know exactly what oil they’re using at the factory these days, but it has

a lot of sodium and titanium in it. Maybe it's one of Mobil's products. In any case this

oil is working nicely in your new 4Runner. We expect to see a lot of things reading high in

a factory sample like this, but in your case only copper and silicon are elevated. Copper

is from brass/bronze parts wearing in, and silicon is from sealers.

Both will improve with time. No moisture, fuel, or signs of coolant found. The oil

filter is working well at keeping solids low. This will be a great engine for you!





MI/HR on Oil 1,350

MI/HR on Unit 1,350

Sample Date 03/28/13

Make Up Oil Added 0 qts





ALUMINUM 6

CHROMIUM 0

IRON 17

COPPER 258

LEAD 2

TIN 0

MOLYBDENUM 158

NICKEL 1

MANGANESE 2

SILVER 0

TITANIUM 51

POTASSIUM 0

BORON 8

SILICON 223

SODIUM 441

CALCIUM 1735

MAGNESIUM 6

PHOSPHORUS 736

ZINC 844

BARIUM 13







SUS Viscosity @ 210°F 49.7

cSt Viscosity @ 100°C 7.17

Flashpoint in °F 405

Fuel %
Antifreeze % 0.0

Water % 0.0

Insolubles % 0.2

 

[147_Grain]

Shows that your engine is still breaking in.

The high silicone and sodium are likely leftover sealants / lube from when your engine was assembled.

Moly is typically added in factory fill oils to ease the breakin process of a new engine.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Sorry, but the UOA tech has it wrong. This engine has no copper parts, but copper is part of assembly lube.

 

[spasm3]

I was under the impression that cam bearings had copper. But some rtv sealants have copper in them.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: spasm3
I was under the impression that cam bearings had copper.


Tri Metal cam bearings can contain copper, but together with lead or tin. If lead or tin are low, copper is not from bearings.

 

[ZO6_Vette]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Sorry, but the UOA tech has it wrong. This engine has no copper parts, but copper is part of assembly lube.


According to an engineer in another forum, Toyota test runs this engine then flushes out the test oil and fills the engine with new oil. My question being if that were true would there be traces of assembly lube in the oil?

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: ZO6_Vette

According to an engineer in another forum, Toyota test runs this engine then flushes out the test oil and fills the engine with new oil. My question being if that were true would there be traces of assembly lube in the oil?


I also heard the same story about changing the real break-in oil in the factory. As for completeness of the change, about 10% is left behind.

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: spasm3
I was under the impression that cam bearings had copper.


Tri Metal cam bearings can contain copper, but together with lead or tin. If lead or tin are low, copper is not from bearings.


First - Welcome to the site Z06_Vette!




And to FJ, all add this ... Your statement needs to be more clearly described.

Cu could be from bearings, or from other things like heat exchangers. Or it is used at times as an additive. Etc.

There are plain metal bearings, bi-metal bearings and tri-metal bearings.

I have no idea whatsoever which bearings this engine has. And don't forget that we're talking about ALL the bearing that would be lubed by the oil; cam, con-rod, mains, etc.

Tri-metal bearings will often (but not always) have the Cu as the top layer, then the Pb or Tn over steel, etc. That is why it is proper to be concerned about Cu showing up, before Pb. This would apply to engines that are already broken-in. When folks say "there is no Pb so you can ignore the Cu", that is foolish. That is way too broad a blanket to throw over this topic. Depending upon the exact bearing construction, and the type of bearing degredation, you might see Cu show up before Pb, or concurrent with Pb.

I offer these to back up my statements:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/646/copper-diesel-engine-oil
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28757/slight-changes-can-mean-big-problems-
I realize this UOA thread is not a diesel engine, but the concepts apply the same. And I have been a big proponent of making folks aware of how Cu spikes can mask other wear issues. Futher, you really have to know the UAs (universal average and unit average) to be able to make decent conclusions about Cu and Pb and Tn. We are to be looking for very small shifts in Cu and Pb and Tn. Yet the standard deviation variance MUST be known to understand how much is "normal" or not. (Read my normalcy article). There are other Noria articles; read them when you get a chance.

The Si is almost assuredly from various sealers. Unless there is a MASSIVE air leak (like the filter is just plain missing inside the box ... or coolant disappearing by the quart)
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28673/silicon-sources-in-oil

This UOA simply has noise from break-in and norming to chemistry. There is nothing to glean from a UOA in an engine this new. Only if one suspected a massive internal leak would this be useful.

Why people do a UOA on such a new engine is beyond me. Unless a gross malfunction is suspected, these are meaningless noise and there is nothing useful here.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3

Depending upon the exact bearing construction, and the type of bearing degredation, you might see Cu show up before Pb, or concurrent with Pb.

I offer these to back up my statements:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/646/copper-diesel-engine-oil
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28757/slight-changes-can-mean-big-problems-
I realize this UOA thread is not a diesel engine, but the concepts apply the same.


OK, i checked your sources and the second one stated:
Quote:
Copper alloy component wear is generally accompanied by lock-step increases in alloy metals such as lead, tin, aluminum and zinc.


The first one also showed the same thing in the table and also showed copper as antiseize and antiwear agent.

How is it different from what I said?

Do you have better sources to support your
Quote:
When folks say "there is no Pb so you can ignore the Cu", that is foolish.
?

 

[INDYMAC]

Thanks for posting your FF UOA. I kinda wish that I had done a UOA on the FF on my 12 4Runner when I changed it at 600 miles. I eventually got around to it at 10K miles with TGMO.

Just remember, if a UOA doesn't tell you anything, that's a good thing!

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

Depending upon the exact bearing construction, and the type of bearing degredation, you might see Cu show up before Pb, or concurrent with Pb.

I offer these to back up my statements:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/646/copper-diesel-engine-oil
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28757/slight-changes-can-mean-big-problems-
I realize this UOA thread is not a diesel engine, but the concepts apply the same.


OK, i checked your sources and the second one stated:
Quote:
Copper alloy component wear is generally accompanied by lock-step increases in alloy metals such as lead, tin, aluminum and zinc.


The first one also showed the same thing in the table and also showed copper as antiseize and antiwear agent.

How is it different from what I said?

Do you have better sources to support your
Quote:
When folks say "there is no Pb so you can ignore the Cu", that is foolish.
?



The point to understand here is that one singular UOA (espcially on break-in FF) is totally meaningless.

Please read my "normalcy" UOA article. You cannot look at singular UOAs and simply ingore the concept of data variation.

Shift in Cu numbers are meaningful even when reasonably low in magnitude. Shifts in Pb can be meaningful when in VERY low magnitudes. And yet normal variance in UOAs consumes a fair amount of head-space here.

What might look like "noise" may or may not be wear indicators to the onset of problems. When metal counts are really high, they can mask small events that predicate bigger problems.

When Cu escalates, and Pb is only moved one, two or perhaps even zero ppm, that does NOT mean a problem isn't present. It only means the UOA didn't pick it up. That is why continued data collection and analysis are important; trending data is MUCH more important than snap-shot data.

Now, this UOA is "noise" because it's very likely break-in. I seriously doubt there is anything wrong with this engine. But after break-in subsides, high Cu with little or no shift in Pb is not something to ignore. It is the precurser to Pb showing up later. Much of this is due not only to the metals present but the specific failure mode of a bearing, as well as it's contstruction. Galling is differnt from spalling which is different from corrosion which is different from errosion, etc etc. Therefore, if and when Pb would show up after Cu, and in what % shift, it due to not only damage, but the TYPE of damage being seen at the bearing.

Which is why Fitch stated that we cannot ignore high Cu counts from cooler leaching because it can mask other events. And those events often start out small; so small that Pb may not shift immediately or if it does, may only shift in a shift amount. And that shift may be confused with the normal variance of normalcy. By the time Cu and Pb would be really high enough to be noticed by a novice, it's already too late and the damage is on the cusp of being severe.

In short, when Cu is high, it might be a coincidence (cooler leaching) or it might be bearing damage. The lack of Pb does not mean the bearing damage isn't occuring; it only means it hasn't got down the the Pb layer yet ... much of that is simply dependent upon bearing construction and type of failure mode.
What you know for sure is that if both Cu and Pb are present in high levels above sigma variation, you are nearly assured of bearing damage.
But when only Cu is elevated, it could be a precursor to the appearance of Pb, and it's very difficult to distinguish the normal sigma variance from true escalation in the infancy of the problem.

You cannot presume that you can simply ignore high Cu, just beause Pb isn't currently present, or shifted within normal variation. That is why I made the former statement about foolishness. UOAs are really a tool that the common man cannot just dabble in and think they know everything there is to know. One needs training, a very good working knowledge of statistical methodology, and a large amount of data for comparison/contrast, and a lot of experience to be successful. And on top of all that, folks will often mistake correlation for causation; topics that are paramount to understaning root cause analysis. That's a whole other thread topic on it's own. I would admit that some of the lube chemisty interaction is where I struggle at times, but the mathmatical modeling is my strong suit; I do statistical process quality control for a living.

Hope that makes it clearer.

 

[spasm3]

what would be a reasonable milege to get a uoa or start getting uoas, on a newer engine. after 10k?

 

[dnewton3]

I would think between 10-15k miles for most new engines.

What one can do to hasten to it a bit is do a few quick flushes to get out machining and casting remnants. That won't really change break-in itself, but it will flush out stuff sooner.

 

[147_Grain]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
What one can do to hasten to it a bit is do a few quick flushes to get out machining and casting remnants. That won't really change break-in itself, but it will flush out stuff sooner.


Totally agree with this wise suggestion!