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Old Surge Protector Still Good?

Posted By: LoneRanger

Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/28/19 12:27 PM

I've had a Monster HTS 400 surge protector in service since 2006. I know that if it ever has taken a surge that it has the sacrificial type of protection and the protection is expended. What I don't know is when these devices age do they start to actually make the power worse, or "dirtier", than simply plugging your electronics directly into the wall outlet?

Monster HTS400:


[Linked Image]
Posted By: MasterSolenoid

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/28/19 01:12 PM

I'm not an Electrician, maybe one will comment.

I've had Surge Protectors for at least 10 years and just go by the green/red LED to tell me if their still good.
I did quite alot of reading when buying my Whole House & Individual Surge Protectors.
I never read they go bad with age / unlike Smoke & CO Detectors.

The very least, buy from a reputable manufacturer, get a high joule rating and occasionally inspect the LED (indicator) lights.
Posted By: HangFire

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/28/19 01:54 PM

Most surge protectors of that era are MOV (semiconductor) type. Over time they may go out of spec a bit, but should still work in terms of gross overloads.

Older ones than yours may have a spring loaded disconnector. These can fail in either direction, but the better ones become oversensitive over time. It becomes pretty obvious because you have to keep resetting the spring loaded switch manually. I have one of these still in service.

Lightning arrestors come in various forms, some have glass discharge tubes filled with a special mix of gasses design to conduct (short the circuit) at high voltage. As long as they keep their seal, they will work indefinitely. Sometimes you can tell just by looking at it (corossion, cracks) that it is compromised, otherwise problem is, it's hard to tell if they work without testing.

I live along a ridge in hill country. I have a bunch of surge protectors/arrestors of various ages. I continue to use them, but I use them in deference to their size and age. Meaning, I rely on newer ones for expensive equipment and older ones for older, less valuable equipment. I've had to toss a few, and a few UPS's hooked directly to the mains, over the years. Since the MOV's are always blown with this happen, I am confident that they caught a lightning strike to the power lines.

There is an internet personality w tom that trolls forums and claims all surge protectors are a scam except for one favorite type of his. His end argument is always the direct lightning strike, and ignores any other scenario. Well yes, if lightning hits your electronics directly, it will do what it wants and what it is plugged into won't matter.

I have multiple direct strike experiences and can tell you lightning can be weird, taking out parts of systems and leaving others, seemingly more vulnerable, alone. When I related these stories I was called a liar, and part of the scam conspiracy by the roving internet personality.

If you want "the best" I have used Brick Walls through multiple types of power events and never lost equipment protected by them:

https://www.brickwall.com/
Posted By: 46Harry

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/28/19 02:04 PM

I've heard that 5 years is a good rule of thumb to replace surge protectors as the Metal Oxide Varistors used in them do lose their effectiveness over a period of time due to taking minor power surges over the years. Better protectors have a monitor on them that shows when they are no longer functioning properly, but many protectors have no indicator on them to indicate a failure so replacing them is the only way to be sure that expensive equipment has surge protection.
Posted By: Triple_Se7en

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/28/19 02:13 PM

I keep a spare new one out in the garage on a shelf, should the one behind my entertainment center karap-out, or others plugged in behind my desktop / surveillance camera computer station, where (2) exist.

Also, it's not a good habit to use every outlet available. Don't overload them and they will last a much longer time.
Posted By: EdwardC

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/28/19 03:16 PM

I don't think an older suppressor would add any noise or make the electricity any dirtier, especially the MOV type. They're typically placed in parallel with the incoming power (and shunts surges). If/when they fail, they should pop open, so it's essentially just a bare wire straight through.
Posted By: Dan55

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/28/19 04:13 PM

Here is the one I have. https://www.tripplite.com/isobar-4-outlet-surge-protector-6-ft-cord-3330-joules-space-saving-plug~IBAR4 when it stops working I give them a call and they send me a new one. Sadly they are no longer made here, very rugged construction.
Posted By: maxdustington

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/28/19 05:25 PM

I'd keep using something that old, there's a good chance it has decent quality components. Anything comparable would today would probably be HT grade/$$$$$.

That looks like it was made before Monster really took off and became consumer grade Best Buy junk.
Posted By: Delta

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/28/19 07:02 PM

I had a couple that we're getting up in years (7+) and a couple weeks ago we had a major surge (tree cutting company dropped a tree on the line) and they worked exactly like they were supposed to, kinda. The surge was so big that it literally fried them; I couldn't even reset the breaker on one as it was literally melted. The other one actually made a loud audible buzz and pop switching on the breaker, thus going up in smoke (literally). The switches on both were literally melted as the first outlet on the strip. Don't think this went as they intended, but saved my equipment. I just spent $56 on 4 new ones at Home Depot and that little amount pars in comparison to the equipment it was hooked to. This is the first time I ever "needed" them, but glad I had them. I would use the older ones, but on caution. The ones I bought ranged from $9 to $15, so if it makes you sleep better at night, buy some new ones.
Posted By: HangFire

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/28/19 10:40 PM

Anything is better than nothing, but $38-$55 for Tripplite Isobar's is a good deal for a lot of protection.
Posted By: Triple_Se7en

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/28/19 11:32 PM

That Monster HTS400 pictured above is too pretty to use. It belongs in front of the Entertainment Center, not behind it.
Posted By: Papa Bear

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/29/19 12:12 AM

MOVs often failed in the shorted mode. They saved the equipment but had to be replaced along with the fuse
Posted By: LoneRanger

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/29/19 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by maxdustington
I'd keep using something that old, there's a good chance it has decent quality components. Anything comparable would today would probably be HT grade/$$$$$.

That looks like it was made before Monster really took off and became consumer grade Best Buy junk.


Yeah the actual manufacture date I think is 2005.
Posted By: WhizkidTN

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/29/19 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by 46Harry
I've heard that 5 years is a good rule of thumb to replace surge protectors as the Metal Oxide Varistors used in them do lose their effectiveness over a period of time due to taking minor power surges over the years. Better protectors have a monitor on them that shows when they are no longer functioning properly, but many protectors have no indicator on them to indicate a failure so replacing them is the only way to be sure that expensive equipment has surge protection.


The MOV's do age due to getting minor hits over time and become ineffective. The filtering aspect of the surge suppressor may not be affected.
With newer standards over recent years, I tossed all of mine and bought new ones from well know company (APC) that does actual testing/certifications (and a warranty on the protected equipment). The way this one is designed, if it gets a big enough hit, it will fail open requiring you to replace it as it sacrificed itself to protect you.
Posted By: westom

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/29/19 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by LoneRanger
I've had a Monster HTS 400 surge protector in service since 2006. I know that if it ever has taken a surge that it has the sacrificial type of protection and the protection is expended.


It is called electricity. That means if an electric current is incoming to a Monster, then at the exact same time, that same current is also outgoing into attached appliances. Much later, that protector parts fail (sacrifices) ... after damage has happened to things in that electrical path. Where is this sacrificial protection? It is the urban myth promoted to so many who even forget that basic electrical concept taught in elementary school science..

Even fuses have a voltage number. If a transient electrical current exceeds that voltage number, then a blown fuse continues to conduct current. A second reason why sacrificial protectors do not exist. It conducts that surge into attached appliances until that surge current finally stops. Only then does the disconnection exist.

MOVs must degrade. Degradation is the only failure mode that is acceptable. Catastrophic (sacrificial) failure is clearly stated as a violation of manufacturers specifications. But if that protector is grossly undersized, then a manufacture can promote outright lies (sacrificial protection) to the most naive consumers.

Why would they do that? View specification numbers. It has the same tiny protection also found in $10 protectors sold in Walmart. A $3 power strip, with five cent protector parts, is hyped by lies, advertising, myths, and hearsay into a $30 or $90 sale.

Monster has a long history of doing this. They sold speaker wire marked with the amp and speaker ends. Monster said connecting a speaker end wire to the amp would subvert sound. Many did just that and claimed they could hear a difference. It is called a scam. And it works because so many automatically believe what they are ordered to believe rather than think for themself.

So Monster sold that $7 speaker wire for $70. Monster's long history is to identify scams. And then sell an equivalent product for much higher profit. That Monster protector even sold in Radio Shack for $120.

Any honest person reads specification numbers. How many joules does it claim to absorb? Hundreds? Thousand? A surge that tiny is routinely converted to rock stable, low DC voltages by power supplies. That surge is converted to power safe to power semiconductors because that surgte is so tiny. A tiny surge destroys a sacrificial protector - to promote more sales.

More numbers. How often does a surge exist? Maybe once every seven or eleven years. Why would anyone say a protector must be replaced every two or five years? Those are profit centers. Marketing lies to naive consumers is that profitable.

Your concern is a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules. No plug-i protector claims to protect from typically destructive surges. Meanwhile, the solution routinely used over 100 years ago does protect from those surge. And does not fail after many such surges over many decades. But that means learning well proven science and over 100 years of proven experience everywhere in the world. Most don't learn from facts and numbers. Most are routinely manipulated by soundbytes, advertising, hearsay, spin, lies, and emotion.

That failure light can only report a catastrophic type failure - a completely unacceptable one. It can never report degradation - the acceptable type of failure.

To avert house fire, a one amp thermal fuse would disconnect protector parts as fast as possible from the surge. And leave all appliances connected to the surge. No problem. The numbers were posted above. Electronics will routinely convert that surge into low DC voltages to safely power semiconductors. Protect itself. Meanwhile a naive consumer, using wild speculation, will claim, "My protector sacrificed itself to save my electronics." Total bull invented by wild speculation. And completely dismissed once one actually learns specification numbers. Or learns what all MOV manufacture state with numbers often on page one of the datasheet. Catastrophic failures happen when the protector is grossly undersized. That light will only report when a ;protector is grossly undersized - should not have existed - was a potential fire. Also called a scam.

Effective protection even from direct lightning strikes costs about $1 per protected appliance. It is the solution routinely used over 100 years ago in facilities that cannot have damage. It comes from other companies known by any guy for integrity. Monster clearly never was on the integrity list.

Effective protection always (as in always) answers this question. Where are hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly 'absorbed'. The informed have asked and answered that question even 100 years ago. An effective solution costs that little - about $1 per protected appliance. If any one appliance needs protection, then every appliance must be protected.

It was always this simple. But first so many lies, hype, speculation, and scams must be exposed - above. Monster products will never answer that 'hundreds of thousands of joules' question. That would harm profits. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Obviously wall receptacle safety ground is not earth ground. Then hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly outside. Best protection has always means no surge anywhere inside. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


Did I mention that a plug-in protector can even compromise (bypass) what is superior protection inside appliances? We engineers even demonstrated that in design reviews ... by literally tracing the surge path by actually replacing each damaged semiconductor. How many foolishly assumed price defines quality? How many ignored every specification number? Most apparently.
Posted By: westom

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/29/19 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by WhizkidTN
With newer standards over recent years, I tossed all of mine and bought new ones from well know company (APC) that does actual testing/certifications (and a warranty on the protected equipment).
Do they? Or did wild speculation invent a myth. And then hearsay promoted it?

APC recently admitted some 15 million protectors must be removed immediately due to so many hundreds of house fires created by their protectors. This one is not even on their recall list: https://imgur.com/hwCWHMW

At least APC is honest enough to admit to the worst of those dangerous devices. Others cannot bother: https://i.redd.it/e34962ah06q11.jpg

A NC fire marshall discovered this problem when multiple protectors in their fire house failed catastrophically - spit smoke and sparks. But anyone can read specification numbers. How many joules does that APC claim to absorb? How do those near zero joules absorb a surge that can be hundreds of thousands of joules? What is at greater risk than household appliances? Those plug-in protectors also must be protected by a properly earthed 'whole house' solution. Otherwise this can happen:
"House fire caused by faulty surge protector not on recall list, Kingwood chief says" :
Quote
A pre-dawn fire at a home here yesterday was caused by a surge protector/power strip that overheated and caught fire, the township fire company chief reported today.

Chief Jason Narbonne said today that the surge protector wasn't overloaded; none of the electronics attached to it were in use and the protector appeared to be a newer model.

"It wasn't one of the surge protectors that was recalled," the chief said. "It was faulty." ...

The chief said that three items were plugged into the surge protector, including a TV and a game console. "There was nothing that would have overloaded it at all."

It was faulty because it was not protected by one properly earthed 'whole house' solution - that costs about $1 per protected appliance. Plug-in protectors should only be used if that 'whole house' solution exists. Plenty more numbers to discuss that. But enough for now.
Posted By: y_p_w

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/30/19 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by HangFire
There is an internet personality w tom that trolls forums and claims all surge protectors are a scam except for one favorite type of his. His end argument is always the direct lightning strike, and ignores any other scenario. Well yes, if lightning hits your electronics directly, it will do what it wants and what it is plugged into won't matter.

You were saying?
Posted By: westom

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/30/19 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by HangFire
His end argument is always the direct lightning strike, and ignores any other scenario. Well yes, if lightning hits your electronics directly, it will do what it wants and what it is plugged into won't matter.

Effective protectors protect from all surges including those created by stray cars, tree rodents, linemen errors, wind, utility switching ... and lightning. Lightning does damage when a homeowner is so foolish as to waste money on plug-in protectors. Facilities that cannot suffer damage from any surge (including lightning) do not waste money on magic box, plug-in protectors.

So many make effective devices including Intermatic, Square D, Ditek, Siemens, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Leviton, ABB, Delta, Erico, and Cutler-Hammer (Eaton). All companies known for integrity. Plug-in protectors, with tiny joules, come from other companies known for obscene profit margins and advertising that successfully manipulates the naive. Plug-in protectors do not claim to protect from any typically destructive surges. Even create house fires. And are successfully marketed to the emotional and most naive. Only the emotional would spend tens of times more money for a tiny joule APC. And would ignore the fire threat created by tiny joule (plug-in) protectors.
Posted By: Papa Bear

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 01/30/19 06:19 PM

I'm a retired TV tech and this is my experience.
In the 80s-90s a lot of the (better) TVs had MOVs in them. The line cord came into the TV with a fuse on the hot side then into a choke before going on to the rectifiers and power supply.
In the line, after the fuse and before the choke, there was a MOV across the AC line.
I serviced many lightning damage/surge damage service calls over the decades where that MOV was destroyed and the fuse was open - with no other damage. Replace MOV & fuse and the TV ran good.

A direct lightning hit is another story - there is no "protection" from that .... and no rules. I have seen hits where the chassis had holes in it and plastic chunks out of the cabinet while the TV upstairs still ran after the power was restored to the house.

A MOV with a fast acting fuse will save a lot of equipment. ... but not all if there is lightning in the vicinity.
Posted By: westom

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/01/19 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by Papa Bear
I serviced many lightning damage/surge damage service calls over the decades where that MOV was destroyed and the fuse was open - with no other damage. Replace MOV & fuse and the TV ran good

First, any MOV that fails catastrophically is a violation of the MOV manufacturer's specifications.

Second, what really happened. A surge incoming to that MOV, at the exact same time, was also outgoing into TV electronics. That surge, too tinyl to overwhelm robust protection inside appliances, also destroyed that tiny joule MOV.

A surge going through that MOV, at the exact same time, is also going through that TV. Where is protection? Long after a surge is done, then AC current finds that failed and shorted MOV. A fuse must blow to protect humans from a fire created by that grossly undersized MOV.

Then one, who fails to first consult numbers, uses speculation to conclude, "That MOV sacrificed itself to save that TV." Total nonsense. The same microsecond current in that MOV was also inside TV electronics - at the exact same time. MOV did no protection.

Third, MOV does protection when it does not fail catastrophically. Read MOV manufacturer datasheets. For example, this MOV manufacturer says how to test MOVs for its acceptable failure mode - degradation.
Quote
The change of Vb shall be measured after the impulse listed below is applied 10,000 times continuously with the interval of ten seconds at room temperature.
MOV must withstand even thousand of surges without catastrophic failure. Then eventually it suffers degradation - the acceptable failure mode. Its voltage (Vb) changes by 10% - the acceptable failure mode. That only happens when protection is properly sized.

Four, surges are typically once every seven years. Clearly no MOV should fail catastrophically as observed. That failure is directly traceable to a homeowner who failed to implement the only proven ('whole house) solution.

Five, many only speculate that fuse did protection. Fuse takes tens of milliseconds or seconds to trip. One surge (that destroys a grossly undersized protector part) is done in microseconds. Fuse clearly did nothing to protect TV parts - once we include numbers/.. Fuse purpose: to protect human life from a fire. In this case, protect from a fire created by a grossly undersized protector part.

Six, we engineers traced surge damage to learn what human mistake made that damage possible or likely. Effective protection always connects a surge to earth BEFORE it enters a structure. Only then is best protection, already inside every appliance (even without MOVs), not overwhelmed.

MOV, that failed catastrophically, did nothing to protect electronics. Failed MOV is why a fuse had to trip - to protect humans.
Posted By: bobdoo

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/01/19 05:43 AM

I've been buying the Belkin 12-Outlet Pivot-Plug Power Strip Surge Protector with 8-Foot Power Cord, 4320 Joules for 5 years or so. The attempt at research that I did seemed to point to it as the 'best'.

I have been replacing my units about every 10 years, but am now marking them for replacement in 5 years. We have seemingly very clean power, with underground lines, with the one exception in 28 years of a clear-sky surge that literally blackened the wall around a wall outlet. It also toasted the surge protector plugged in there, but not the tv, directv, dvd, etc.

We had a lightning strike to the neighbors 30' tall pine tree, 30 feet from the corner of my house. The lot line had a small river of water rushing down it from a torrential downpour. The security appliance in that corner room took a hit, the modem chip on the mobo took a hit, the tv on the other end of the house blew a video card, and the phone *line* (underground) was blown up in the back yard somewhere. I replaced all the protectors in the house. The insurance co. gave me grief until I took pics of the damaged dircuits.

Surge prots are cheap insurance. I would love to put a lightning shunt on the main line into the building...
Posted By: westom

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/01/19 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by bobdoo
I've been buying the Belkin 12-Outlet Pivot-Plug Power Strip Surge Protector with 8-Foot Power Cord, 4320 Joules for 5 years or so. .

Research clearly did not cite any relevant numbers. Most 'research' unfortunately is only subjective sales propaganda. If the research was based in science, then it always answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmloessly dissipate.

We know this from over 100 years of well proven science and experience all over the world. Effective protection means direct lightning strikes without damage to anything inside. Protection only exists when a surge connects to earth without being anywhere inside. Once inside, then nothing - as in nothing - does effective protection. Your research should have made that obvious.

Did you learn why each device failed? What was the incoming and outgoing surge path? Best evidence always comes from the dead body. That is what we did. Literally replace each damaged semiconductor to restore every appliance. And to trace that surge path - incoming from the cloud and outgoing to earthborne charges many miles away.

Your would be incoming to everything. Why was everything not damaged? In order to promote scams, they first need one to assume a surge is only incoming; an outgoing path does not exist. That even violates what was taught in elementary school science. Yyes, they do get most to forget obvious science to promote myths. That surge was incoming to everything. But it (apparently) only found a best outgoing paths via a security appliance, the entire computer, and video card.

You spent massively on protectors that were ineffective. Effective protection from any direct lightning strike costs about $1 per appliance. If any appliance is damaged, then effective protection never existed.

Any protector that must be replaced every five years (when surges might happen only once every seven or eleven years) is more urban myths to increase profits. That effective ($1 per protected appliance) solution remains functional for many decades after many direct lightning strikes. That effective solution is the only solution always found in every facility that cannot have damage - even over 100 years ago. Did your research discuss that? It did if based in science and most paragraphs had numbers. If not bases in sales propaganda. Most only learn and recite sales myths.

Again, what research discussed where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? What research discussed critical parameter such as impedance? Did it mention that no protectors do protection - not one?

Ineffective protectors must somehow 'block' or 'absorb' a surge. How do 2 cm protector parts in those protectors 'block' what three miles of sky cannot? Did research ask that [censored] question - with numbers?

Hundreds or thousand joules in an effective protector must somehow 'absorb' hundreds of thousands of joules. Did research not discuss that [censored] number?

Something completely different - called a surge protector - never 'blocks' or 'absorbs' a surge. It is even installed for free on the phone line - as required by codes that existed long before you or I existed. From your damage, you should have learned about that existing protector. And the only item that makes any protector effective - a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to single point earth ground.

Again, no protector does protection. The effective protector (that costs about $! per appliance and that remains functional for many decades after many direct lightning strikes) is only a connecting device to the other item that does protection. Not just any ground. And definitely not safety ground in a wall receptacle. A protector is only as effective as its low impedance (ie hardwire has no sharp bends or splices) connection to and quality of earth ground.

Research from responsible science (not sales brochures) would have discussed all that ... with numbers. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - as was well understood in science over 100 years ago. All this is only the executive summary.
Posted By: StevieC

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/01/19 03:40 PM

Would the surge protectors that go on the fuse panel have to be replaced at 5 years as well? I ask because mine is 6 years old and being on overhead power I would want this working as the primary line of defense before it gets to the other surge protectors I have down line from this.
Posted By: HangFire

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/02/19 12:57 AM

I see Papa Bear's direct experience is just as meaningless to w tom as mine. Never mind years of the same evidence over, and over, and over again, of MOV's saving equipment. Can't happen according to w tom.
Posted By: Subdued

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/02/19 05:30 AM

I have a whole home protector connected to a ground spike so I only buy power strips with no protection built in
Posted By: bobdoo

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/02/19 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by westom
...


What in the he77 are you going on about?
Posted By: StevieC

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/02/19 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Subdued
I have a whole home protector connected to a ground spike so I only buy power strips with no protection built in

Have you had an incident where it saved your equipment?
Posted By: Ed_T

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/03/19 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by HangFire
Most surge protectors of that era are MOV (semiconductor) type. Over time they may go out of spec a bit, but should still work in terms of gross overloads.

Older ones than yours may have a spring loaded disconnector. These can fail in either direction, but the better ones become oversensitive over time. It becomes pretty obvious because you have to keep resetting the spring loaded switch manually. I have one of these still in service.

Lightning arrestors come in various forms, some have glass discharge tubes filled with a special mix of gasses design to conduct (short the circuit) at high voltage. As long as they keep their seal, they will work indefinitely. Sometimes you can tell just by looking at it (corossion, cracks) that it is compromised, otherwise problem is, it's hard to tell if they work without testing.

I live along a ridge in hill country. I have a bunch of surge protectors/arrestors of various ages. I continue to use them, but I use them in deference to their size and age. Meaning, I rely on newer ones for expensive equipment and older ones for older, less valuable equipment. I've had to toss a few, and a few UPS's hooked directly to the mains, over the years. Since the MOV's are always blown with this happen, I am confident that they caught a lightning strike to the power lines.

There is an internet personality w tom that trolls forums and claims all surge protectors are a scam except for one favorite type of his. His end argument is always the direct lightning strike, and ignores any other scenario. Well yes, if lightning hits your electronics directly, it will do what it wants and what it is plugged into won't matter.

I have multiple direct strike experiences and can tell you lightning can be weird, taking out parts of systems and leaving others, seemingly more vulnerable, alone. When I related these stories I was called a liar, and part of the scam conspiracy by the roving internet personality.

If you want "the best" I have used Brick Walls through multiple types of power events and never lost equipment protected by them:

https://www.brickwall.com/


I've got a couple of these running at home. One for the A/V setup, the other for computer. One caveat is that they can't be used alongside the cheapo-type surge protectors simultaneously, IIRC. Don't remember the reason.
Posted By: westom

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/03/19 06:39 PM

First off, appreciate Hangfire's insufficient knowledge. Ineffective protectors (adjacent to appliances) that can even make appliance damage easier, are MOVs. And 'whole house' protector that do effective protection are MOVs. He should have known all this before posting.

'Whole house' protectors are connecting devices. Less energy it 'absorbs' means better protection. So 'whole house' protectors remain effective for many decades after many direct lighting strikes.

Tiny joules in a plug-in protector will typically fail on the first surge (that occurs maybe once every seven years). That increases sales and profits. A surge too tiny to overwhelm better protection inside appliances can also destroy a near zero joule protector. Then consumers (such as Hangfire) use wild speculation to conclude "My protector sacrificed itself to do protection". A naive consumer never learns the reason for no appliance damage was superior protection already inside every appliance.

That plug-in protector is a profit center. Meanwhile other companies, well known for integrity, properly construct a 'whole house' protector (using MOVs). So that nobody even knows a surge existed. Since no appliances and no protectors fail even after many direct lightning strikes.

Ironically, he is making recommendations while not even knowing what a 'whole house' protector is - or what it contains.

This is a most critical point: no protector does protection. Protectors, with a low impedance connection to earth ground, are effective protection. Plug-in protectors have no earth ground; do not even claim to protect from typically destructive surges. Worse, that no earth ground connection is why plug-in protectors can also compromise otherwise superior protection inside appliances.

Silly are some who know better but do not even know what a 'whole house' protector is, do not know what makes a protector effective, and do not know robust protection is already inside appliances. A surge too tiny to damage an appliance may also destroy those tiny joule plug-in protector. Then the naive may use wild speculation to recommend that inferior product. Informed consumers properly earth one 'whole house' protector that must remains effective for many decades after many direct lightning strikes.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. So most attention focuses mostly on that most critical item that defines protection.
Posted By: westom

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/03/19 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by StevieC
Have you had an incident where it saved your equipment?
Your telco's local CO suffers about 100 surges with each storm. How often is your town without phone service for four days after every storm? Never. Exactly. Because a 'whole house' solution is routinely implemented in all such facilities - even over 100 years ago.

Every wire inside every incoming cable makes a low impedance connection to earth ground either directly or via a protector.

To increase protection, telcos also want protectors up to 50 meters distant from electronics. Increased separation between protetor and electronics increases protection.

These proven solutions are routinely found in every town. And since damage must never happen, it is required even on cell phone towers and in munitions dumps, In fact, one of the best 'whole house' solutions uses Ufer grounds. An example: http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm

Better is to ask what is implemented in all facilities that suffer frequent surges (ie direct lightning strikes) without damage. Orange County FL fixed their reasons for damage:
http://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/pq/casestudy/florida911.html
Posted By: Subdued

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/05/19 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by Subdued
I have a whole home protector connected to a ground spike so I only buy power strips with no protection built in

Have you had an incident where it saved your equipment?

I wouldn't know, the entire point of it is to see no effect from a power spike whatsoever. I do know in the 8 years I've owned my house and 5-6 storms a year I've never lost a piece of equipment.
Posted By: alarmguy

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/06/19 12:01 PM

No surge suppressor deserves to be in use over 10 years. :o)
MOVs wear out over time instead of the electronics plugged into it and the purpose of the surge suppressor. The older it gets greatly reduces the capacity to handle a large surge.

5 years is a good time to change it out and what I try to do. I mark the dates on mine. Also, forget bells and whistles and marketing and try to stick to the manufacturer and the facts.
On most stuff I actually use two suppressors. Any type of basic direct plug into the wall followed by one of these -

Belkin Commerical Surge - Click

On my mid to higher range Home Entertainment system, I plug the above Belkin into one of these -
ISOBAR - CLICK

Posted By: westom

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/06/19 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Subdued
I do know in the 8 years I've owned my house and 5-6 storms a year I've never lost a piece of equipment.

Best protection adjacent to an appliance is already inside every appliance. Concern is only for a transient that might overwhelm that protection. A potentially destructive surge is maybe one every seven or eleven years. Better is to obtain neighborhood history for the past 10 or 30 years to better appreciate the risk.
Posted By: westom

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/06/19 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by alarmguy
No surge suppressor deserves to be in use over 10 years.
MOVs wear out over time instead of the electronics plugged into it and the purpose of the surge suppressor. The older it gets greatly reduces the capacity to handle a large surge.
5 years is a good time to change it out and what I try to do.

Replace a protector every 5 years to protect from something that happens maybe once every seven years? You are using a near zero joule Belkin. So waste money to protect their profits. Those recommendations clearly are not based in well proven science nor any numbers that define reality.

Does your local telco switching station replace maybe 80,000 protectors every five years? Of course not. Many probably recently finished replacing protectors that were installed 50 years ago. And only because attached equipment was obsolete. Protectors still work just fine.

Tiny joule protectors in a Belkin can fail catastrophically. Such failures explains so many thousands of house fires. This one completely unacceptable failure fortunately did not create a fire: https://imgur.com/gallery/LPSxO3X But could have due to obviously missing features necessary to avert fire. Why would anyone waste so much money on something so dangerous?

Protectors must never fail catastrophically. Protector parts must only degrade - a threshold voltage (Vb) that changes by 10%. One MOV manufacturer describes numbers for testing for an acceptable failure:
Quote
The change of Vb shall be measured after the impulse listed below is applied 10,000 times continuously with the interval of ten seconds at room temperature.
10,000 times? And for a protector that may only do something once every seven years. Why would anyone constantly replace protectors? Because they are buying ineffective (near zero joule) devices with massive profit margins. And not something that claims to protect from that potentially destructive transient - once every seven years.

The effective protector always answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? No Belkin even answered that question. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Belkin has no earth ground. But wants their customers to keep buying a new one every five years? Total profit. Ineffective protection.

Amazing how sales propaganda (subjective claims - no numbers) is believed. Science and specifications ignored. Replace protectors every five years for something that may only happen once every seven? Boy do they know how to increase profits.
Posted By: alarmguy

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/07/19 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by westom
Originally Posted by alarmguy
No surge suppressor deserves to be in use over 10 years.
MOVs wear out over time instead of the electronics plugged into it and the purpose of the surge suppressor. The older it gets greatly reduces the capacity to handle a large surge.
5 years is a good time to change it out and what I try to do.

Replace a protector every 5 years to protect from something that happens maybe once every seven years? You are using a near zero joule Belkin. So waste money to protect their profits. Those recommendations clearly are not based in well proven science nor any numbers that define reality.

Does your local telco switching station replace maybe 80,000 protectors every five years? Of course not. Many probably recently finished replacing protectors that were installed 50 years ago. And only because attached equipment was obsolete. Protectors still work just fine.

Tiny joule protectors in a Belkin can fail catastrophically. Such failures explains so many thousands of house fires. This one completely unacceptable failure fortunately did not create a fire: https://imgur.com/gallery/LPSxO3X But could have due to obviously missing features necessary to avert fire. Why would anyone waste so much money on something so dangerous?

Protectors must never fail catastrophically. Protector parts must only degrade - a threshold voltage (Vb) that changes by 10%. One MOV manufacturer describes numbers for testing for an acceptable failure:
Quote
The change of Vb shall be measured after the impulse listed below is applied 10,000 times continuously with the interval of ten seconds at room temperature.
10,000 times? And for a protector that may only do something once every seven years. Why would anyone constantly replace protectors? Because they are buying ineffective (near zero joule) devices with massive profit margins. And not something that claims to protect from that potentially destructive transient - once every seven years.

The effective protector always answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? No Belkin even answered that question. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Belkin has no earth ground. But wants their customers to keep buying a new one every five years? Total profit. Ineffective protection.

Amazing how sales propaganda (subjective claims - no numbers) is believed. Science and specifications ignored. Replace protectors every five years for something that may only happen once every seven? Boy do they know how to increase profits.


Weston, I skimmed over your response to my post. Where you came up with all this stuff (above) is beyond me and needless for me to reply. Fine if you do not want to spend $14.00 on a surge suppressor but why not talk about what you do, rather then someone who uses a suppressor.
You go on in another post to ask people in the area about how reliable the power is, huh? Are you kidding me, its like asking the weather man, will there be a hurricane every 7 years or every 3.
Who cares? Spend $14 and you dont have to ask.

For the benefit of others -
The surge suppressor that I posted in my post a few up in this thread is a deal and can be bought (or I did buy) for less then $14.00. Called Belkin Commerical, high joule rating, no fancy needless lights bells and whistles.

We have surge suppressors on almost any electronic in our house including our refrigerator and washer, most simply cheaper plug in direct model.
But all (5) computers and home entertainment have a $14 Belkin plugged into another on wall suppressor. We change out these suppressors normally when we get a new computer or TV which would be 5 to 10 years. I would never keep the same suppressor for more then 10 years.

I do date them now and stated I change them every 5, maybe I should have expanded on that and say, depending on how important the device, 5 to a MAX of 10 years. Im not to concerned because these devices actually have 2 suppressors on them.
1 Direct plug in the wall model and a Belkin with a cord type. I am not brand loyal and buy what I can get a best price on, though I do like Trip Light brand if I feel like spending a little extra such as having the cheap Belkin plugged into the ISOBAR direct plug in stated in my posts above this one.

Suppressors are purely optional extra protection and why I do not spend a lot of money on them. On a daily basis they help filter out fluctuation in the power supply which comes from everyday stuff taking place in your home, heating and a/c clicking on and off, that 12 amp vacuum clicking on and off, the car a couple blocks away knocking down an electric pole, small surges due to power interruptions and distant lightening strikes.
The power supply in your electronic device can filter out most of these surges all the time, until the time they no longer can/get worn out, a surge suppressor helps and also helps during a major surge (however rare) that your electronic can not handle.

One other thing not mentioned by Weston is they also help filter out noise in the line which is a help for Internet modems and routers, computers and phone systems.

Anyway, not sure of Westons point but my point is, you can buy some effective surge suppressors a really good prices if you want a little more protection. I service and install security systems 5 days a week commercial and residential and farms. When summertime comes at least a call a week, sometimes more, is replacing blown out equipment. A suppressor will not stop direct lightening but will stop surges in power lines of a little more distant lightening. Many times the customer has some blown out TVs or equipment and others have survived, even on the same line, its cases like this if there was a suppressor, that equipment would have survived.

Do what you wish, my last post in this thread :o)

Maybe ... ha ha ..

Posted By: westom

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/08/19 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by alarmguy
Weston, I skimmed over your response to my post. Where you came up with all this stuff (above) is beyond me and needless for me to reply. Fine if you do not want to spend $14.00 on a surge suppressor but why not talk about what you do, rather then someone who uses a suppressor.

No reason to read farther than that. Your knowledge is only from skimming - also called soundbytes or lies. You did not bother to read or even ask what has done effective surge protection for over 100 years in facilities that cannot have damage. It was introduced. But since scammers have you worshipping a magic $14 box, then you could not see what is obvious.

We, who work where power can be nasty, do not want electronics damage. Plug-in protectors can even make surge damage easier. As we (who learn before knowing) demonstrated even in design reviews after tracing damage. In one example, plug-in protectors did exactly what they were supposed to do. They earthed a surge destructively through the entire network of powered off computers. No reason to waste time explaining why to someone who only hears soundbytes.

Best protection comes with numbers to protect even from direct lightning strikes (and the so many other destructive surge sources). Effective protection means nobody ever knew a surge existed. Even a protector does not fail for many decades and after many direct lightning strikes. Again, I would post numbers that say it exists and why. But clearly you are entrenched in lies, subjective speculation, and myths. Somehow you foolishly believe hundreds of joules in that magic $14 protector will 'absorb' a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules. Clearly you know more because your power is so clean - and still have damage at customer sites. How many GFCIs, clocks, dimmer switches, furnace controller, and smoke detectors did you replace today or this month? Or do you power them from invisible $14 protectors?

Better protection is already inside those and all other appliances.

If five cent protector parts inside that $14 protector were so effective, then why are protetor parts not already inside every appliance? Oh. Another [censored] question that brainwashed consumers never ask.

If any customer had damage, then he should be looking at the inferior and ten times more expensive solutions that you have installed. His damage is directly traceable to your mistakes and do to knowledge from skimming.

Facilities that cannot have damage - ever - properly earth something completely different. Every home and business can have same for about $1 per protected appliance. Using the solution that has been routinely implemented even over 100 years ago. And is unknown to experts who forgot to first learn basic concepts such as equipotential, single point earth ground, impedance, and ... Every effective solution answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? The many who installed effective protection routinely answer that question. You clearly cannot. A $14 protector says urban myths have you both scammed and brainwashed. You did not even read its near zero spec numbers? How many joules does That magic $14 box claim to absorb?

To learn, then answer that question. How many joules? What does it do for destructive surges - hundreds of thousands of joules? If you continue to mock, then you will not ask to learn.

Had you bothered to read what was posted, then you know what is so necessary to protect that ineffective $14 protector - that can also create house fires. Oh. Did they forget to mention what fire marshals have been saying for so long? What happens when hundreds of joules tries to 'block' or 'absorb' a surge: hundreds of thousands of joules? Fire is on the list of possibilities. Maybe you want to learn rather then deny?

We know your solution is a scam. Spec numbers make that obvious. You have customers with damage after thunderstorms? Direct lightning strikes without damage is routine had you read (not skimmed) the previous post. To learn rather than deny.
Posted By: bmwpowere36m3

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/08/19 01:56 AM

We used to have surge protectors in every room with electronics... in our new house I put in a surge protector in the breaker panel. $50 and protects the whole house.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Whole-Home-Surge-Protection-Unit-Panel-Mount-THQLSURGE/100143165
Posted By: alarmguy

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/09/19 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by westom
Originally Posted by alarmguy
Weston, I skimmed over your response to my post. Where you came up with all this stuff (above) is beyond me and needless for me to reply. Fine if you do not want to spend $14.00 on a surge suppressor but why not talk about what you do, rather then someone who uses a suppressor.

No reason to read farther than that. Your knowledge is only from skimming - also called soundbytes or lies. You did not bother to read or even ask what has done effective surge protection for over 100 years in facilities that cannot have damage. It was introduced. But since scammers have you worshipping a magic $14 box, then you could not see what is obvious.

We, who work where power can be nasty, do not want electronics damage. Plug-in protectors can even make surge damage easier. As we (who learn before knowing) demonstrated even in design reviews after tracing damage. In one example, plug-in protectors did exactly what they were supposed to do. They earthed a surge destructively through the entire network of powered off computers. No reason to waste time explaining why to someone who only hears soundbytes.

Best protection comes with numbers to protect even from direct lightning strikes (and the so many other destructive surge sources). Effective protection means nobody ever knew a surge existed. Even a protector does not fail for many decades and after many direct lightning strikes. Again, I would post numbers that say it exists and why. But clearly you are entrenched in lies, subjective speculation, and myths. Somehow you foolishly believe hundreds of joules in that magic $14 protector will 'absorb' a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules. Clearly you know more because your power is so clean - and still have damage at customer sites. How many GFCIs, clocks, dimmer switches, furnace controller, and smoke detectors did you replace today or this month? Or do you power them from invisible $14 protectors?

Better protection is already inside those and all other appliances.

If five cent protector parts inside that $14 protector were so effective, then why are protetor parts not already inside every appliance? Oh. Another [censored] question that brainwashed consumers never ask.

If any customer had damage, then he should be looking at the inferior and ten times more expensive solutions that you have installed. His damage is directly traceable to your mistakes and do to knowledge from skimming.

Facilities that cannot have damage - ever - properly earth something completely different. Every home and business can have same for about $1 per protected appliance. Using the solution that has been routinely implemented even over 100 years ago. And is unknown to experts who forgot to first learn basic concepts such as equipotential, single point earth ground, impedance, and ... Every effective solution answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? The many who installed effective protection routinely answer that question. You clearly cannot. A $14 protector says urban myths have you both scammed and brainwashed. You did not even read its near zero spec numbers? How many joules does That magic $14 box claim to absorb?

To learn, then answer that question. How many joules? What does it do for destructive surges - hundreds of thousands of joules? If you continue to mock, then you will not ask to learn.

Had you bothered to read what was posted, then you know what is so necessary to protect that ineffective $14 protector - that can also create house fires. Oh. Did they forget to mention what fire marshals have been saying for so long? What happens when hundreds of joules tries to 'block' or 'absorb' a surge: hundreds of thousands of joules? Fire is on the list of possibilities. Maybe you want to learn rather then deny?

We know your solution is a scam. Spec numbers make that obvious. You have customers with damage after thunderstorms? Direct lightning strikes without damage is routine had you read (not skimmed) the previous post. To learn rather than deny.


Lots of words and nothing but words.
Posted By: alarmguy

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/09/19 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by bmwpowere36m3
We used to have surge protectors in every room with electronics... in our new house I put in a surge protector in the breaker panel. $50 and protects the whole house.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Whole-Home-Surge-Protection-Unit-Panel-Mount-THQLSURGE/100143165


Agree, it will help with surges coming into the house and nothing at all wrong with that. I looked at a number of them and I would have one if it wasnt such as hassle. I have a large breaker box and 200 AMP service but so spare room.
Which then of course the simple solution would be to install an external one (Leviton makes some nice external ones if I remember correctly) which I might some day but even that is a project as I would have to cut out the drywall ... and well, procrastination has got to me on that. Maybe I will make it a project to get done this year before the thunder storms start.

Even with the breaker panel surge, the plug in type will help with internal surges, minor blips, turning on that 12 amp vacuum or other heavy appliances in the home, either way, whole house (if I had one) I would still have something like the $14 2000+ joule power strips on the electronics if no other reason then some cleaner power as they reduce line noise and if one pays attention you could get a lower let through voltage on some strips. Either way, for the few dollars, I dont cringe when lights start flashing on and off. I have been "damaged" though, since I work on some many lightening affected devices, yet the reality is most are not affected, hmmm ... most, some people in some areas more then others.


I also install these (link below) on all lines to electronics and every single line into and out of routers ect. to filter out interference. My internet and wifi is rock solid and we always get above the speed we pay for, also never, ever have to reset routers or modems. I also have a UPS on the router and modem.and many filters on every line feeding into the system.

Ferrite Filters
Posted By: westom

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/09/19 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by alarmguy
Even with the breaker panel surge, the plug in type will help with internal surges, minor blips, turning on that 12 amp vacuum or other heavy appliances in the home,

If anything inside is creating a surge, then a homeowner is trooping daily to a hardware store to replace clocks, dishwasher, GFCIs, furnace controller, dimmer switches, door bell, stove, LED and CFL bulbs, and smoke detectors. Why are none damaged? Mythical internal surge is promoted by plug-in protector manufacturers to naive consumers. It does not exist.

If any appliance is creating a surge, then the nearest appliance is first destroyed. Itself.

If any appliance is creating a surge, a 'whole house' protector also makes that irrelevant.

Informed consumers know a power strip protector, not used in conjunction with a 'whole house' solution (properly earthed), can even do this: https://i.redd.it/e34962ah06q11.jpg

Anyone can easily and properly earth one 'whole house' protector. In the breaker box. In a meter pan, Or even rented from the AC utility. Then one has best protection even for those near zero joule $14 or $85 power strips.

'Whole house' solutions come from companies known for integrity including Intermatic, Square D, Ditek, Siemens, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Leviton, ABB, Delta, Erico, and Cutler-Hammer (Eaton). Effective solutions can make the always required low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to single point earth ground. Then hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate outside. Specification numbers apply. But that means learning numbers such as joules. Such reasons why are only 'relevant to' and 'can be provided for' others who want to learn.

What is the topic here? Currently discussed are how some are easily played by myths that promote $14 or $85 magic boxes. Suffer damage. And still recommend ineffective profit centers.

If that 'whole house' solution does not exist, then much safer is to not use a plug-in protector - for another long list of reasons.
Posted By: bobdoo

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/09/19 06:20 AM

There's been a warehouse-sized pile of poo posted on this thread.

You should use surge protectors on expensive equipment.

You should read *all* of this review, which answers the BS posted here.

https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-surge-protector/#how-we-tested

Whole-house protectors don't 'clamp' till around 500v. SP's clamp at less than half of that.
Posted By: alarmguy

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/09/19 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by bobdoo
There's been a warehouse-sized pile of poo posted on this thread.

You should use surge protectors on expensive equipment.

You should read *all* of this review, which answers the BS posted here.

https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-surge-protector/#how-we-tested

Whole-house protectors don't 'clamp' till around 500v. SP's clamp at less than half of that.


Good point, GOOD POST, also I have read all years of The Wirecutter Tests ... and maybe Consumer Reports a very long time ago.
I just re-read your link and everyone should read all of their 3 years of reviews. However I do not buy anything based on their personal ratings because they only recommend units that shut down once their life is over and I dont need or agree with that and its marketing to charge an extra $10 or more.

Also, it is true that the "let through" voltage of whole house protectors is a lot higher (not as good) it is why even IF I had a whole house I would still use what I do, it would be just an extra, extra measure of protection. Surge Suppression is cheap and I am guessing I have 20 suppressors or more in use in my home.

One point people miss, is most good suppressors will also have basic noise filtering built in.

I do look up the "let through" specs on the surge protectors I buy. And why to me, without question, one of the best values out there is the Belkin Commerical Surge Strips.
I paid just a year or so ago by searching around, less then $14 at the time, can still be bought on Amazon at $16.

Commercial means just, plain jane looking surge strip minus all the fancy lights and decals, (No marketing) However, Belkin is a good name, with a good Clamping Voltage of 330, Total Combined 2500 joules plus of course line noise filtering, it cant be beat for the money.

APC, Trip Light, also good names. I buy price and why right now I have the plain box, plain jane Belkin Commerical and of course the Tripplite, oops, a few Cyber Power too, along with a Cyber Power UPS for the Modem and Router ... :o) and lets not forget those Ferrite Snap on Noise Filters on every wire for every electronic in the home, actually I use 2 on each line. :o)

What I dont agree with in The WireCutter story is their ratings and lets me honest, they look to make money selling these things so there has to be a rating, nothing wrong with that though. Anyway, the only top rated surge suppressors are the expensive ones (they make more money) and those are the ones that automatically shut off at the end of their life.
Me personally, I would never buy one of those for my own reasons, I dont need my hand to be held and why I will never have a surge for more then 10 years. Also I do not need to come hope on day to find my electronics dead or my aquarium dead because a surge strip reached the end of its life.

So bottom line, Belkin and all brands did great, except they only rate the ones that kill themselves at the end of its life as good.
AS I stated in other posts, I use cheap but good quality wall based surge suppressors in the outlet, then plug a Belkin Commerical Strip into that. Of course, again, it doesnt have to be Belkin, not that I am in love with the company, not at all, I buy on quality and price. Mentally I prefer Trip Light and (APC to some degree WITHOUT any type of shut down once its life it finished, to me its stupid)

On my expensive Home Theater System. I use a Belkin Commerical Power Strip Plugged into a Tripp Lite Isoblok 2-0.

The Trip Light Isoblok2 has a clamping voltage of 140 !!! So that is the first line of defense for the home theater, THEN the Belkin Commerical Power Strip/Surge is the second line of defense with 330 clamping voltage, which is also fantastic.



Posted By: WhizkidTN

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/09/19 02:14 PM

FWIW: When we built our new house in 2017, I had the excellent Square-D HOM2175SB installed in the first panel (I have two) located less than 1.5 meters (wire length) from the service entrance and master grounding rod. All other sockets with devices of interest had APC P6W devices installed (microwave, tank-less HW heater, garage door opener, standing freezer, refrigerator, washing machine, garbage disposal, etc.). Each AV center (I have three) got their own new surge strip (APC) while my computer setup had a CyberPower Regulating UPS. My garage based AV panel (cable/Ethernet/fiber optic modem/router) had the new Leviton Surge suppressor block installed. All these have EMI filtering as well. I have underground utilities at the back of a subdivision (new).

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...rizontal3_rr-_-100143165-_-100182531-_-N

I feel pretty confident I'm well protected from all but a near/direct Lightning strike and you can't really protect much against that.
Posted By: westom

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/09/19 03:55 PM


Originally Posted by bobdoo
You should use surge protectors on expensive equipment.

When it comes to poo, wirecutter.com reeks. Outright lies abound. It says nothing about protection - as that poster demonstrated by not citing one technical fact.. Somehow outside appearance and an ability to 'block' a surge determines quality.

Where does wirecutter.com discuss a number of absorbed joules? Ignored. When does it say what that proptector does to protect anything. Nothing stated. Not one specification numbers - the first indication of a scam.

A $14 protector or those many expensive wirecutter.com recommendations - all are nothing more than $3 power strips with five cent protector parts. None - not one - can (or even tries to) answer this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? A solution that costs abut $1 per appliance has done that protection routinely even over 100 years ago.

Clamping voltage says nothing useful. Surges are a current source - not a voltage source/ A protector with near zero joules will be at a voltage approaching 900 volts. A 'whole house' protector (properly sized) remains at maybe as much as 400 volts. Surge protection is always about current - not voltage. Anything that foolishly tries to block that current only increases the voltage. Current source - another fundamental concept that the electrically informed are taught in the first semester. Alarm guys never learn what is it since alarm systems do not use current sources. And do not require electrical knowledge to be installed.

Anything that foolishly tries to 'block' or 'absorb' a surge means voltage will increase as necessary to keep current flowing. A surge is a current source; not a voltage source. Surge will simply blow through a plug-in protector. No problem. A surge that destroys a protector is also too tiny to overwhelm superior protection already inside all appliances. Wirecutter.com never discusses that well understood EE concept. But then it need not discuss it. They are marketing a scam only to the most electrically naive.

Even those reviews admit that a protector must somehow 'block' or 'absorb' a surge. Any informed adult can see the problem. How does that 2 cm parts 'block' what three miles of sky cannot. It cannot. A scam is easily promoted.

How does its tiny joules 'absorb' hundreds of thousands of joules. Scammed consumers will not even discuss that [censored] question. Otherwise they have to admit to so easilly being scammed.

No protector does protection. Not one. An effective protector does not foolishly try to 'block' or 'absorb' a surge. An effective protector connect a surge (ie 20,000 amps) harmlessly to earth ground so that no voltage is inside on appliances. Essential to even protect tiny joule plug-in protectors - to avert fire.

Companies (and products) well known for integrity are not anywhere in that wirecutter.com citation.

Why did APC finally admit some 15 million protectors must be removed immediate due to many hundreds of house fires. Well APC has more credibility that others such as Tripplite, Belkin, Panamax, and Monster. But even this APC protector (and fire) is not on APC's recall list: https://imgur.com/hwCWHMW

Apparently that model has not created almost 1000 house fires.

Critical to every layer of protection is the only item that does protection - that harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Effective protectors connect low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) to earth via a 'whole house' protector. As professionals have well known for over 100 years. Facilities (even 100 years ago) that cannot have damage always use a properly earthed solution. An employee might even be fired for using ineffective and fire prone Belkin, APC, Tripplite, et al protectors. FAcilities that cannot have damage cannot have items that create fires.

Properly earthed 'whole house' protector means a surge current remains outside. And only creates a few hundreds of volts. That same current can create 900 volts in a tiny joule plug-in protector. That same current that destroyed near zero protectors is also too tiny to damage adjacent electronics. Unless (of course) that protector foolishly connects that current 8000 volts destructively through some nearby TV.

An IEEE brochure demonstrates a protector in one room earths a surge 8000 volts destructively via a TV in an adjacent room. It failed to block a surge. So it diverts that current (not voltage - current) to earth destructively via any nearby appliance.

Most transients are routinely made irrelevant by superior protection already inside appliances. Any surge (maybe one every ten years) that might overwhelm that superior protection must be earthed BEFORE entering a building. But that requires an informed consumer.

Surge protectors that cannot connect to earth ground (too far away) are rated in numbers of joules to be 'blocked' or 'absorbed'. Wirecutter.com and other propaganda will never discuss such numbers. Even clamping voltage (which is both irrelevant and incorrectly cited) is irrelevant. Effective protectors are rated in amps.

A direct lightning strike can be 20,000 amps. So a minimally sized 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Since protectors must not fail for many decades and after many direct lightning strikes. And must not fail catastrophically as tiny joule plug-in protectors do.

Effective protectors are not sacrificial devices. Profit increase when they are.

Anyone can also cite noise filtering inside a protector - with a number. Nobody does. A filter might exist - that does nothing for noise. That filter diverts more of a surge aways from protector parts - to avert fire. Then a protector is less likely to create a fire during testing - to obtain a UL 1449 listing. A passive filter must weight tens of pounds to perform noise filtering. Obviously the tiny filter in a protector does nothing for noise.

Professionals note this constantly. Protection is always about the earth ground. Only then can hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate safely outside; not be anywhere inside. Effective protectors always have a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth. Since that connection (not the protector) defines all protection. Articles that promote scams do not even discuss products from manufacturers of integrity. Profit centers are recommended by another educated only by lies in wirecutter.com

Protectors that actually do protection always - as in always - have a low impedance connection to single point earth ground. To even protect tiny joules plug-in protectors that cost many times more money. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Only honest posters know that and know why. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Only then is everything protected.
Posted By: westom

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/09/19 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by WhizkidTN
FWIW: When we built our new house in 2017, I had the excellent Square-D HOM2175SB installed in the first panel (I have two) located less than 1.5 meters (wire length) from the service entrance and master grounding rod.

Generally that protector is undersized. Effective 'whole house' protectors start at 50,000 amps. Because effective protectors never fail after many decades and many direct lightning strikes. If your neighborhood has little history of surge damage, then two may be sufficient.

And since the earth ground sounds like it was properly installed, then plug-in protectors are less likely to create fire.

An IEEE Standard defines what each protector does. That 'whole house' protector (if properly earthed) would do 99.5% to 99.9% of the protection. So it is not perfect. And then the IEEE further defines those numbers:
Quote
Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ... Protection at 99.5% is the practical choice.

Numbers define what does almost all protection. Not just a protector. Because earth ground (not the protector) defines protection.

Why do plug-in protectors do so little (maybe another 0.2% more protection)? It has no earth ground. It can only 'block' or 'absorb' a surge. That is routinely made irrelevant by robust protection already inside all electronics - even in dimmer switches, dishwasher, LED bulbs, GFCIs, and smoke detectors.

What most must be protected is a surge exists? Smoke detectors. Just another reason why that 'whole house' protector is so more essential.
Posted By: bobdoo

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/10/19 12:52 AM

westom, You either outright lied, or you weren't capable of understanding literally a couple, very simple sentences in wirecutter's review.

I can't imagine what commercial connection would prompt you to do this, so I'm guessing you don't get out much?

You should see your doctor, and discuss your posting 'issues'. Seriously. Your life doesn't have to be this miserable.
Posted By: y_p_w

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/10/19 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by bobdoo
westom, You either outright lied, or you weren't capable of understanding literally a couple, very simple sentences in wirecutter's review.

I can't imagine what commercial connection would prompt you to do this, so I'm guessing you don't get out much?

You should see your doctor, and discuss your posting 'issues'. Seriously. Your life doesn't have to be this miserable.

Sounds like you've seen his "work".
Posted By: westom

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/10/19 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by bobdoo
You should see your doctor, and discuss your posting 'issues'. Seriously. Your life doesn't have to be this miserable.

Evil must disparage others to mask a glaring fact. No knowledge. The naive will post insults when numbers make obvious what they don;t know.

An adult thinking like an adult would have posted numeric contradictions or question facts with numbers. Honest people always provide those numbers. The deceived cannot. Those most easily brainwashed by extremist rhetoric will not. Proof is, instead, in defamation. Defamation - not intellectual grasp of reality - is why lesser people post insults. Inspired by someone so intellectually challenged that he is also smarter than the generals.

Absolutely amazing how many use childish emotions to replace adult conversations.
Posted By: Y_K

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/12/19 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by bobdoo
westom, You either outright lied, or you weren't capable of understanding literally a couple, very simple sentences in wirecutter's review..


The man invokes Physics, while you refer to some marketing stream of characters. Admittedly, it requires some effort and could be painful, when shortcuts are abound. The history of mankind could be presented as History of Shortcuts.
Apparently, simple things, even Ohm's Law can be difficult at first. Start with Voltage, Current, Resistance. Then gently move on to Impedance, Capacitance and Inductance. Hysteresis is around the corner...
Posted By: LoneRanger

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/12/19 11:43 AM

Could someone please tell this layman where to get this protector that only costs $1 per television, computer, or etc? Also, for Westom. Does my Sony PlayStation 4 have built-in noise filtering or should I keep it plugged in to the Monster Clean Power HTS400? The HTS400 advertises noise protection to ensure optimal functioning of whatever is plugged in to it.
Posted By: alarmguy

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/12/19 12:22 PM

Its real simple, almost all electronics are made with the possibility of power surges and this is normally designed right into the power supply of the device.

HOWEVER, some devices will be better then others at preventing damage and some power supplies themselves may get damaged and others protection might just degrade over time.
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG with installing surge suppressors in your home, to me its smart.

On our service calls, more so summer, I have been in countless homes where a surge has taken out some electronics but not others on the SAME line. This is simply because some devices did better at protecting themselves, surge suppressors will better your chances that all will survive in those cases.
Then of course, a power surge like a very close lightening strike can take out almost everything and its possible a surge will be useless in that case no matter what kind it is.

Surge suppressors also have built in noise filtering that may also boast the noise filtering of the devices your are looking to protect.
Not sure what all the posts are about here. Nothing at all wrong with putting surge suppressors in your home and is you shop around, it can be done very cheaply with good protection as in the links I provided previously.

MANY industries and MUCH expensive equipment use additional power conditioning devices in addition to what is built in.
Posted By: y_p_w

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/12/19 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by alarmguy
Its real simple, almost all electronics are made with the possibility of power surges and this is normally designed right into the power supply of the device.

HOWEVER, some devices will be better then others at preventing damage and some power supplies themselves may get damaged and others protection might just degrade over time.
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG with installing surge suppressors in your home, to me its smart.

Of course they absorb little surges that slowly degrade the MOVs that most surge protectors use. It may make more sense to have a more easily replaceable device take more of that than something built into a device and which may not be as easily replaceable. Certainly there's nothing wrong with building that into a device power supply.
Posted By: westom

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/14/19 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by y_p_w
Of course they absorb little surges that slowly degrade the MOVs that most surge protectors use. It may make more sense to have a more easily replaceable device take more of that than something built into a device and which may not be as easily replaceable. Certainly there's nothing wrong with building that into a device power supply.

Protectors that plug-in (are adjacent to appliances) do degrade quickly. Undersizing increases profits. Those protectors can also fail catastrophically on a surge too tiny to damage any electronics.

Why put those parts inside appliances when appliances already contain protection (without protectors) that is already more robust?

Everything degrades. Only relevant is how much (how fast). One 'whole hosue' protector remains functional for many decades even after many direct lightning strikes. With specification numbers that say why. Then are properly sized.

Degradation is defined by a voltage number - Vb. One MOV manufacture even defines what a properly sized MOV can withstand before it degrades:
> The change of Vb shall be measured after the impulse listed below is applied 10,000 times continuously with the interval of ten seconds at room temperature.

All more reasons why plug-in protectors do not even claim effective protection. And why a properly earthed 'whole house' protector is effective protection from all types of surges for many decades.

Worse. that plug-in protector can connect a surge directly into a computer's motherboard. Compromising (bypassing) effective protection already inside a PSU. We even demonstrated that in a design review when all powered off computers on a network were damaged by a surge. Plug-in protectors connected that surge directly into motherboards. Then the current found paths to earth via other powered off computers using the network.

A fundamental difference exists. Protectors are being recommended subjectively by some who never did any of this. There was always good reason why facilities (that cannot have damage) always implement the 'whole house' solution. Being many times less expensive is only one so so many reasons. First reason - they cannot have any damage. Not even one power supply can be damaged. Even a protector must remains functional - never fail. In some facilities, an employee might even be fired or transfered for using that ineffective plug-in stuff. Since fire is another reason why those tiny joule 'magic boxes' must not be used.

Fire? What happens when a hundred joule protector is confronted by a hundreds of thousands of joule surge? Learn ony from those who say why with numbers.
Posted By: westom

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/14/19 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by LoneRanger
Could someone please tell this layman where to get this protector that only costs $1 per television, computer, or etc?

I am confused. A '$1 per appliance' solution, that actually does surge protection, was defined many tens (maybe almost 100) times. Do a "find" for paragraphs that contains the phrase 'whole house'.

Even posted was:
Quote
Effective protectors protect from all surges including those created by stray cars, tree rodents, linemen errors, wind, utility switching ... and lightning. Lightning does damage when a homeowner is so foolish as to waste money on plug-in protectors. Facilities that cannot suffer damage from any surge (including lightning) do not waste money on magic box, plug-in protectors.

So many make effective devices including Intermatic, Square D, Ditek, Siemens, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Leviton, ABB, Delta, Erico, and Cutler-Hammer (Eaton). All companies known for integrity.

Numbers apply. Lightning (a typical surge) can be 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps.

Go into any big box hardware store or electrical supply house. Ask for their 'whole house' protector. Then read its specification number. It must be 50,000 amps or greater. That is a best protector. How good? That depend on how well you connect it to single point earth ground. Only you are responsible for providing, inspecting, and maintaining that must critical item.

Brand name say little. Effective protection is so old as to be sold as a commodity. Do you care about a farm name that manufactured your peas? Of course not. Same applies to effective protectors. Only specifications matter. Listed were companies of integrity that provide these. Effective protectors are sold by companies making profits rather than effective products. Names such as APC, Belkin, Panamax, Tripplite, Furman, and Monster are not found on 'whole house' protectors -. with an always required and dedicated earth ground hardwire.

Maybe you still do not understand? Any protector adjacent to an appliance does not even claim to protect from typically destructive surges. Learn what your telco CO does to suffer 100 surges with each thunderstorm - and no damage. They want their 'whole house' protectors to be up to 50 meters separated from electronics. That separation increases protection. An appliance adjacent protector can even earth a surge destructively through any nearby appliance. Why is that effective protection?

Above solution costs about $1 per protected appliance. If any appliance needs protection then every appliance desperately needs that protection. Just another reason why informed consumers and every facility that cannot have damage always implements a 'whole house' solution. Most attention focuses on THE item that defines every layer of protection. Never a protector. Protection is always about how that protector connects low impedance (ie hardwire has no sharp bends or splices) to what does the protection: single point earth ground.
Posted By: Garak

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? - 02/15/19 02:03 AM

What about protection from your utility itself? I'm never going to have a lightning problem. Well, I can't say never, but you get my drift. My utility does like to unclean power, surges, and more commonly, brownouts.
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