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0W16 instead of 0w20?

Posted By: Mter00s

0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 05:36 PM

Car calls for 0w20 on cap and am eager to try 0w16. Any harm in switching?

- '12 Civic 1.8L
Posted By: OilReport99

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 05:38 PM

Let us know.
Posted By: Mr Nice

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 05:59 PM

I’d be worried to use such a thin oil in that engine, we had the same car.
Posted By: NormanBuntz

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 06:01 PM

Why chance it unless it's been approved for your model and year by Honda?

Posted By: blufeb95

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 06:04 PM

I dug up this UOA, and I see where you once made a post about wanting to try a long OCI, seems like the engine sheared 5w20 Mobil 1 EP pretty good after only 9000mi, I don't think I'd stick a 0w16 that starts out about that thin in the engine myself. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...1/m1-5w20-ep-honda-civic-r18z1-9137k-oci,
Posted By: CT8

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 06:06 PM

Why would you be eager to try the 0W-16?
Posted By: ecotourist

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 06:09 PM

Unless Toyota has back specified it for that engine, I wouldn't.

Apply a "worst regret" analysis. Not using 0W-16 means you give up a small (potential) saving in fuel, but by using 0W-16 you risk major engine repairs. So which would be regret more? I know which one I would.
Posted By: SWS

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 06:25 PM

I have had 3 Civics, most recently a 2013 with 1.8L.
Yes, 0W-20 on the cap.

My experience with 2 data points:

-> I used M1-EP 5W-20 year-round here in TN, since that’s what my Accord uses (I know this is not a good reason).
Civic 1.8L started immediately and ran peppy and no noise even in the coldest weather, sitting outside.

-> Interestingly and puzzling, this was not the case with M1-EP 5W-30 in cold weather. Slower cranking, a bit of shaking, and lacked pep for the first 2 minutes, only in cold weather.
Several OCI with this experience.

All of the above was oil I purchased & changed myself.


My suggestion for you is to at least continue 0W-20 through the summer.

If you change to 0W-16, I hope you will stay with the same brand & type, then watch for normal stuff - oil consumption, leaks, noise, change in starting, cold pep, etc.
Then be sure to share your experience here!
Posted By: sjw91

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 06:27 PM

Why would you use it in an engine not designed for it??? I can't imagine any measurable gain in mileage, and there's no price difference.
Posted By: painfx

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 06:27 PM

Just use whatever the manufacturer recommends... Done.
Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by Mter00s
Car calls for 0w20 on cap and am eager to try 0w16. Any harm in switching?

- '12 Civic 1.8L


Has Honda back-specified 0W16 for this range of engines and Model Years?

If not, Absolutely do not use it.

I would add that there would be nothing to be gained and much to loose.

0W16 is in the 20 grade range for KV100 but below range for MIN HTHS.

If you want to try a "thin 0W20" that is NEAR a 0w16 try Subaru Genuine (Idemitsu) 0W20 or

The MOTUL that I am running in my VW which is MOTUL VW 508 00/ 509 00

BTW pretty quickly, I had found the MOTULto be too thin for my use, the engine was burning it at a good clip,

so I Added Mobil 1 0W40 FS ( MB 229.5x, Porsche A40 ) to a sump that was down a 1/2 qt and the engine responded marvelously.

SO let the "thinnies" beware smile
Posted By: OilReport99

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 06:31 PM

We had a 2012 Civic 1.8L. Always used M1 AFE 0W-20 @ 10K OCI. No issues at all.
Posted By: Cujet

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 06:42 PM

I have some Vermont family members who are Subaru owners (yes, I'm sarcastically picking on them) who drive 10 under the speed limit at all times. They also believe that any perceptible acceleration is an affront to creation itself. I don't think I've ever seen the tachometer exceed 2000 RPM when riding with them.

The engines in these cars are so lightly loaded, that 0W-Water motor oil, WD-40 or Wesson vegetable oil, is just fine for their needs and they will never experience any lubricity related operational problems.

The rest of us operate in the real world and recognize that motor oil must perform a number of seemingly different tasks. From flowing very well when below ice cold, to providing adequate hydrodynamic connecting rod lubrication near redline and ring to cylinder lubrication during spirited hot summertime driving. All while keeping the pins and links on timing chains from excessive wear rates.

Test after test show that adequate viscosity is the driving factor behind lubrication. Additives can help, but it's viscosity that does the heavy lifting. Ultra low viscosity oils have but one goal, better economy. Engines must be designed for low viscosity oils. My attempt at improving high RPM HP by using 0W-20 in a Miata resulted in a 255 PPM Pb UOA and destroyed rod bearings. Yes, I was racing it, and yes I was looking for any advantage over my competitors. But the bottom line was insufficient viscosity resulted in failure.

Gas turbine engines use roller and ball bearings, that work perfectly with low viscosity synthetic ester oils. Piston engines have piston rings scraping down the cylinder walls, often have camshaft components that don't have rollers, sleeve bearings on the crankshaft and camshafts, timing chains made from pins and sheet metal links (fact, chains last longest with 30 viscosity oil) and the only thing keeping those parts "apart" is the oil's viscosity.
Posted By: Oildudeny

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 06:57 PM

What are you looking to gain .00000001 mpg? Took me years to accept 0w20 now 0w16 wow that's like lily white sewing machine oil.
Posted By: h8snow

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 06:57 PM

Yes yes use it always fun to experiment with oil viscosity. Let us know how it worked out.
Posted By: AZjeff

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by ecotourist
Unless Toyota has back specified it for that engine, I wouldn't. .


Why not? The car in question is a Honda Civic, who cares what Toyota thinks. smirk2
Posted By: Rmay635703

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by OilReport99
We had a 2012 Civic 1.8L. Always used M1 AFE 0W-20 @ 10K OCI. No issues at all.


Honda has specd their own green oil for years, it is much thinner than 0w20
Posted By: OilReport99

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Originally Posted by OilReport99
We had a 2012 Civic 1.8L. Always used M1 AFE 0W-20 @ 10K OCI. No issues at all.


Honda has specd their own green oil for years, it is much thinner than 0w20


Yet, they recommended 0W-20 and that’s what I used.
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by Mter00s
Car calls for 0w20 on cap and am eager to try 0w16. Any harm in switching?

- '12 Civic 1.8L

API/ILSAC have made the fuel-economy requirement stricter for xW-20 in API SP than in API SN/SN PLUS. The fuel-economy improvement over xW-20 will now be 0.3%/0.1% or more for new/used 0W-16 in API SP. It used to be 0.5%/0.3% or more in API SN/SN PLUS. See pages 71 and 74 in the official API document.

API 1509, Engine-Oil licensing and certification system, 18th edition, June 2019

0W-16 really pushes the viscosity limits toward the sudden-death zone. Well, it's actually the sudden-wear zone. I wouldn't run it unless the OEM allows it in a given powertrain configuration.

Posted By: StarCaller

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 07:49 PM

Quote
fact, chains last longest with 30 viscosity oil

why would that be?
the higher the viscosity, the higher the longevity ?
how about using a 0w-40?
better or worse than a 30 ?
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by StarCaller
Quote
fact, chains last longest with 30 viscosity oil
why would that be?
the higher the viscosity, the higher the longevity ?
how about using a 0w-40?
better or worse than a 30 ?

For reducing the wear in the timing chain, HTHS has no role, which governs the hydrodynamic lubrication. It is boundary lubrication in the valvetrain and timing chain, and that is related to the base-oil viscosity instead. Some 0W-20 and 5W-20 oils will do better than 5W-30 and even 0W-40 because they have a higher base-oil viscosity. See my spreadsheet.

Estimated base-oil viscosity (BO DV150) and VII content of selected oils
Posted By: PimTac

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 08:00 PM

🎹🪕🎸🎺
Posted By: CourierDriver

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 09:31 PM

Ok, now what are we trying to solve here...is this a life threating issue or an engine is going to explode..??

2 roads diverged in the woods, and I took the road less traveled.... banana
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/29/20 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Honda has specd their own green oil for years, it is much thinner than 0w20

Was the Honda Green Oil an unofficial SAE 0W-8? Was it even labeled at 0W-5? Wasn't it only only allowed for the Honda Insight and Honda Civic Hybrid? shrug

I think these experimental Honda oils caused a lot of wear and engine failures though.

https://www.insightcentral.net/threads/honda-green-oil.25375/
https://www.greenhybrid.com/forums/f50/new-oil-honda-24697/
Posted By: double vanos

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/30/20 12:24 AM

GF-6B - The attributes of GF-6B include the following:

Not backwards compatible with older engines
Better durability to mitigate LSPI
Better fuel economy, as measured by Sequence VIF
Fuel economy grade of SAE 0W-16
3-2.6 mPa.s HTHS
Posted By: bbhero

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/30/20 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by CT8
Why would you be eager to try the 0W-16?



More HP obviously LOL
Posted By: PandaBear

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/30/20 01:17 AM

Yes it will be harmful, 0w16 is used in engine with variable volume oil pump, if yours call for 0w20 you should stick to 0w20 or heavier.

0w16 is good for blending thick oil however, if you have 0w40 left over you can blend in some 0w16 to make it 0w20 or 0w30.
Posted By: OilUzer

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/30/20 01:24 AM

if you like to switch from 20 ... Less harm and/or most likely even better results moving up to 30 than down to 16.
Posted By: Rmay635703

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/30/20 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Honda has specd their own green oil for years, it is much thinner than 0w20

Was the Honda Green Oil an unofficial SAE 0W-8? Was it even labeled at 0W-5? Wasn't it only only allowed for the Honda Insight and Honda Civic Hybrid? shrug

I think these experimental Honda oils caused a lot of wear and engine failures though.

https://www.insightcentral.net/threads/honda-green-oil.25375/
https://www.greenhybrid.com/forums/f50/new-oil-honda-24697/


If you were in Japan and had an Earth Dreams engine you got Hondas own green oil, it was back specd to many Honda platforms including the Insight.
Posted By: Mter00s

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/30/20 02:02 AM

Thanks for the helpful responses guys.

I wanted to try it out because Wally didn't seem to have anymore 0w20 supertech in stock for in-store pickup(I'm a cheapie) but have some 0w16. And for only $14.88, figured why not right? Maybe I'll just wait or get the 5w20
Posted By: PimTac

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/30/20 02:05 AM

Can you order the Havoline Pro DS 0w20? That’s a great oil at a great price to boot. Order online and pickup in store or they might have it already.
Posted By: CR94

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/30/20 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by Mter00s
... Maybe I'll just wait or get the 5w20
The 5W-20 will be just fine, especially with warmer weather arriving.
Posted By: ecotourist

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/30/20 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by AZjeff
Originally Posted by ecotourist
Unless Toyota has back specified it for that engine, I wouldn't. .


Why not? The car in question is a Honda Civic, who cares what Toyota thinks. smirk2

You got me there! In my defense I think of Honda and Toyota as interchangeable, low to medium cost, well engineered, highly reliable Japanese cars. And yes I've had both - several in fact. They're interchangeable, low to medium cost, well engineered, highly reliable Japanese cars.
Posted By: 77Se7en

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/30/20 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by Mter00s
Thanks for the helpful responses guys.

I wanted to try it out because Wally didn't seem to have anymore 0w20 supertech in stock for in-store pickup(I'm a cheapie) but have some 0w16. And for only $14.88, figured why not right? Maybe I'll just wait or get the 5w20

Wait for Wally's to restock. Your vehicle will live a week or two longer without the new oil. Or, spend five dollars more on Magnatec or Quaker State.Ultimate.
Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/30/20 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Mter00s
Thanks for the helpful responses guys.

I wanted to try it out because Wally didn't seem to have anymore 0w20 supertech in stock for in-store pickup(I'm a cheapie) but have some 0w16. And for only $14.88, figured why not right? Maybe I'll just wait or get the 5w20


You can use it. Just buy a qt of M1 0W40 FS and sub that in to the sump.

But that 1 qt may cost you 8 bucks!

What would you have that 0W16?
Posted By: Shannow

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/30/20 10:54 PM

I'd personally rather a 0W16, which is nearly a monograde over an uber high VII 0W20, for reasons that I've explained previously.
Posted By: Shannow

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/30/20 10:55 PM

BRZ is going to get neither...
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/30/20 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by Shannow
I'd personally rather a 0W16, which is nearly a monograde over an uber high VII 0W20, for reasons that I've explained previously.

SAE 0W-16 oils on the market are not necessarily monograde-like. Here is some data:

Code
Oil           HTHS    base-oil viscosity at 150 °C  VII content

M1 AFE 0W-16  2.3 cP  1.8 cP  3.9%
M1 AFE 0W-20  2.7 cP  2.0 cP  4.6%
M1 EP 0W-20   2.7 cP  2.1 cP  3.8%

PP 0W-16      2.3 cP  1.8 cP  3.3%
PP 0W-20      2.7 cP  2.0 cP  4.2%

TGMO 0W-20    2.6 cP  1.6 cP  8.7%

VAS 0W-16     2.35 cP 2.2 cP  0.64%
VAS 0W-20     2.66 cP 2.3 cP  2.1%

Estimated base-oil viscosity (BO DV150) and VII content of selected oils
Posted By: jqgz

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/31/20 02:09 AM

I think you could safely run 0w-16 in this circumstance:
-Winter months where ambient temp is lower
-Only short trips (nothing longer than 30-45 min)
-Disciplined enough to keep revs under 3k

The KV100 of 0-16 is still within the 20 grade range, but as someone else has mentioned here, the HTHS is lower. That is the problem. In my perfect scenario above, you don't see the oil temps high enough to allow for bearing temps that would make HTHS viscosity relevant. If these are your driving habits to a T, give it a try next winter. Your MPG will improve, perhaps by an amount too small to notice. Personally, I usually drive for economy but don't shy away from higher revs to get the oil warm enough to burn off fuel/water. Therefore I couldn't run a 16 grade.
Posted By: aquariuscsm

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/31/20 02:16 AM

You'll burn up your engine.
Posted By: Rmay635703

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/31/20 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by Shannow
I'd personally rather a 0W16, which is nearly a monograde over an uber high VII 0W20, for reasons that I've explained previously.


You’ll have to wait for 5w16, it’s a spec no one has used yet and as close as you’ll get in the next few years.
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/31/20 02:27 AM

Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Originally Posted by Shannow
I'd personally rather a 0W16, which is nearly a monograde over an uber high VII 0W20, for reasons that I've explained previously.
You’ll have to wait for 5w16, it’s a spec no one has used yet and as close as you’ll get in the next few years.

You will wait for a long time. 5W-16 is not an allowed viscosity in ILSAC GF-6B. Only 0W-16 is allowed. This is for fuel-economy reasons, as the idea of 0W-16 is to maximize the fuel economy, and lower-VI 5W-16, with little or no VII, will have inferior fuel economy, despite having better wear protection.

See page 135 in the official API document.

API 1509, Engine-Oil licensing and certification system, 18th edition, June 2019

However, API SP without ILSAC GF-6B (without Resource Conserving) allows 5W-16.
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/31/20 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by Gokhan
However, API SP without ILSAC GF-6B (without Resource Conserving) allows 5W-16.

Correction: You can have an API SP Resource Conserving 5W-16. However, ILSAC GF-6B doesn't allow SAE 5W-16 at all but allows SAE 0W-16 only, as I stated earlier.

To avoid confusion ILSAC GF-6B oils will have the SAE 0W-16 shield in contrast to the ILSAC-GF6A oils having the starburst. Oils that neither satisfy ILSAC GF-6A nor GF-6B will have neither the starburst nor the shield -- they will only have the donut, with or without Resource Conserving.

[Linked Image from i1.wp.com]

Until API SN PLUS/ILSAC GF-5, all oils that were Resource Conserving also had the starburst. It looks like SAE 5W-16 will be the only exception now for having Resource Conserving but no API certification mark (like the shield and starburst). Therefore, I expect SAE 5W-16 will not be recommended by the OEMs and few oil blenders will make it if any.
Posted By: OilUzer

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/31/20 05:01 AM

as far as I know, we can have 5W20 dino and iirc, we can also have dino 0W20. If I EVER use x20, the last thing I would want it to be is dino at least based on my current knowledge and subject to change ... lol
I am not afraid of higher viscosity dinos.

Just curious, are there any dino 0W16? Is it chemically possible?
Posted By: Shannow

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/31/20 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Originally Posted by Shannow
I'd personally rather a 0W16, which is nearly a monograde over an uber high VII 0W20, for reasons that I've explained previously.


You’ll have to wait for 5w16, it’s a spec no one has used yet and as close as you’ll get in the next few years.

The Ravenol had a Harman Index of 100...
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/31/20 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by OilUzer
as far as I know, we can have 5W20 dino and iirc, we can also have dino 0W20. If I EVER use x20, the last thing I would want it to be is dino at least based on my current knowledge and subject to change ... lol
I am not afraid of higher viscosity dinos.

Just curious, are there any dino 0W16? Is it chemically possible?

No, it's not possible to have a dino (Group I) or a conventional (Group II/II+) 0W-xx oil because of the maximum Noack limit (15% for API/ILSAC and 12.5% for GM dexos1 Gen 3). Noack is what determines what base oil is possible or not, and as the CCS decreases when the SAE cold viscosity spec gets lower, Noack increases for a given base-oil quality (roughly determined by the API group).

However, it is possible to have a conventional (Group II/II+) 5W-16.

It just occurred to me that this is exactly why ILSAC GF-6B only allows 0W-16 but not 5W-16. By only allowing 0W-16, they are indirectly requiring the oil to be synthetic, which is needed to endure the OEM-specified oil-change intervals.

It was a good question.
Posted By: painfx

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/31/20 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Shannow
I'd personally rather a 0W16, which is nearly a monograde over an uber high VII 0W20, for reasons that I've explained previously.


Even with Mobil 1 EP 0W20 with mostly PAO is not sufficient enough?
Posted By: painfx

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/31/20 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Shannow
I'd personally rather a 0W16, which is nearly a monograde over an uber high VII 0W20, for reasons that I've explained previously.

SAE 0W-16 oils on the market are not necessarily monograde-like. Here is some data:

Code
Oil           HTHS    base-oil viscosity at 150 °C  VII content

M1 AFE 0W-16  2.3 cP  1.8 cP  3.9%
M1 AFE 0W-20  2.7 cP  2.0 cP  4.6%
M1 EP 0W-20   2.7 cP  2.1 cP  3.8%

PP 0W-16      2.3 cP  1.8 cP  3.3%
PP 0W-20      2.7 cP  2.0 cP  4.2%

TGMO 0W-20    2.6 cP  1.6 cP  8.7%

VAS 0W-16     2.35 cP 2.2 cP  0.64%
VAS 0W-20     2.66 cP 2.3 cP  2.1%

Estimated base-oil viscosity (BO DV150) and VII content of selected oils


So according to your chart, VAS 0w-16 has the best specs compared to the other 0w16s?
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 03/31/20 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by painfx
So according to your chart, VAS 0w-16 has the best specs compared to the other 0w16s?

In has the best specs in terms of the VII content. In other words it's the most monograde-like ILSAC oil sold on the shelves in the US. It is unusual because ILSAC oils try to improve the fuel economy by increasing the VII content and VI.

However, the overall quality of the oil also depends on the quality of the additive package and base oil and the type of the VII, which is impossible to determine through a few specs. The application is also important. For example some applications like full-SAPS oils while others like mid-SAPS oils.
Posted By: CourierDriver

Re: 0W16 instead of 0w20? - 04/06/20 05:05 PM

duh
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