Amsoil Pre-charger

burntkat · Oct 19, 2005

****-- this doesn't make sense. If the FF filter filters down to, typically, 10 microns for a good one, and the bypass filters down to a microon-- then what in the world is there for the fullflow to filter out?

Given the above-- if the bypass is supposedly good for upwards of 100k miles [not what I was told by two actual Amsoil reps, BTW], then how is it the FF filter must be changed every year or so, when there's nothing in the oil big enough for it to catch?

Also-- "filtration is absolute 3 microns, and 1 micron in repeat runs" Given that filtration is a function of the porosity of a filter, how is the filtration media going to catch something smaller just because it's come round for a 5th pass at the material? Granted filters filter better near the end of their service life due to blockage of the pores- but at that time it's time for a filter change, perhaps even past time.

Regardless-- 0.5 microns, first pass, beats 3 or even 1 micron first or 15th pass, every time. If the logic regarding the multiple-passes-means-it-filters-better bit is accurate, then surely the Motorguard must filter down to 0.15 microns after a few passes?

burntkat · Oct 20, 2005

dumb question:

why won't a gas or diesel fuel pump work?

burntkat · Oct 21, 2005

would still like an answer to that last Q-- but I just scored that Tuthill for $35- not bad, eh?

chenobylite · Oct 21, 2005

No kidding. Darn, I forgot about it. Ah well, that's what I get for blabbing. It was new as I recall too. A heck of a deal for what it's worth. It probably stayed low because it's 24 volt.

When you ask about a fuel pump I'm assuming you mean the common in-tank variety. Most are roller pumps and might work except for one minor detail: The medium pumped flows through the motor to cool it. Even around the brushes and armature. They don't go boom because there is no oxygen ie; The "mixture" won't support combustion. It's the same reason a match goes out when you blow on it

Could be a problem if used outside the tank but maybe not. Not much chance of an explosion but still a chance of fire. Probably not worth the risk.

burntkat · Oct 21, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by chenobylite:
Could be a problem if used outside the tank but maybe not. Not much chance of an explosion but still a chance of fire. Probably not worth the risk.

I was wondering about this- and figured if my truck doesn't explode when I drive around with a very low fuel quantity, it wouldn't be an issue.

Still and all-- I think I'll let someoen else test out that theory.

chenobylite · Oct 21, 2005

Nah, go ahead and try it. Lets us know how it works out

Seriously, you got a good deal on ebay so why bother. Just be careful with that ebay stuff though, it can get outta control:

http://www.h1hummer.com/uploads/ebaysong.wmv

LarryL · Oct 22, 2005

From burntkat...

quote:

****-- this doesn't make sense. If the FF filter filters down to, typically, 10 microns for a good one, and the bypass filters down to a microon-- then what in the world is there for the fullflow to filter out?

10 microns, what full flow filter does this? In what kind of test?

Dick in Falls Church · Oct 22, 2005

Good question. Current AMSOIL full flow filter is about 94% effective at 15 microns. New ones to be introduced next month will be 98.7% effective at 15 microns. Others run from about 90% to considerably lower.

burntkat · Oct 23, 2005

You people are missing the point-- your argument about no FF filter doing 10 microns only reinforces my point.

The "10" was, obviously, an arbitrary number. Replace it with the rating of the much beloved and overhyped Amsoil filters, or what have you. Pay attention to the bigger context of the question, however. I'm still waiting for that question to be addressed.

DaveJ · Oct 23, 2005

Just a thing I seen on the oil pumps in the links above. Temperatures are 0F to 150F, isen't that 150F much lower than most warm engines run? I could see it used on a cold engine in a pre-lube setup but not in a post-lube when its got hot 230F oil to deal with. Most of the other thought you guys are putting into this is good. I just think I wouldent want to have a meltdown from 230 deg oil. Am I missing something here? DaveJ
Note: I only got to page one of this so far. DaveJ

LarryL · Oct 23, 2005

A pump rated below the oil max oil temp in the engine is a risk. Oil picked up by this pump could be higher than the temp gauge on the dash. Oil temp varies though out the engine. And pre-oiling does not hurt, but how much it helps is a guess unless there is a lot of expensive testing done to figure out what's going on. In the end, oil flow is more important than full flow filter ability. Ratings in full flow filters with non-metalic elements are misleading because of the time spent with the bypass valve open. The ideal setup would be a pre-oiler, that could also act as a post oiler for turbo motors, a full flow filter that flowed much more thant the standard filter, had no bypass, maybe a metalic element, and a bypass oil filter, not connected to the same mounting as a full flow filter, with its own seperate return. You would get your startup protection, and shutdown on turbos, your full oil flow and filtering, each part doing it's job well. The question might be which pieces would you choose to make a complete system?

burntkat · Oct 23, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by LarryL:
A pump rated below the oil max oil temp in the engine is a risk. Oil picked up by this pump could be higher than the temp gauge on the dash. Oil temp varies though out the engine. And pre-oiling does not hurt, but how much it helps is a guess unless there is a lot of expensive testing done to figure out what's going on. In the end, oil flow is more important than full flow filter ability. Ratings in full flow filters with non-metalic elements are misleading because of the time spent with the bypass valve open. The ideal setup would be a pre-oiler, that could also act as a post oiler for turbo motors, a full flow filter that flowed much more thant the standard filter, had no bypass, maybe a metalic element, and a bypass oil filter, not connected to the same mounting as a full flow filter, with its own seperate return. You would get your startup protection, and shutdown on turbos, your full oil flow and filtering, each part doing it's job well. The question might be which pieces would you choose to make a complete system?

I thought it was clear-- this is what I am building, less the unobtainium ff filter you mention?

Yes, oil temp does vary through the engine. How would you propose the oil at the bottom of the sump would be hotter than oil elsewhere in the engine?

That the gent talked to the engineers at Shureflow and told them his application and they suggested this pump is good enough for me. Like pressure ratings, temp ratings will have some fudge factor built into them.

Preoiliing certainly helps a great deal-- it avoids rotating metal parts against each other without oil. No, I can't supply numbers, but how is this not obvious

Gary Allan · Oct 23, 2005

Given the above-- if the bypass is supposedly good for upwards of 100k miles [not what I was told by two actual Amsoil reps, BTW], then how is it the FF filter must be changed every year or so, when there's nothing in the oil big enough for it to catch?

Even with a TP filter, you will see particles bigger then .5um if you do a particle count ...how can that be

Also-- "filtration is absolute 3 microns, and 1 micron in repeat runs" Given that filtration is a function of the porosity of a filter, how is the filtration media going to catch something smaller just because it's come round for a 5th pass at the material? Granted filters filter better near the end of their service life due to blockage of the pores- but at that time it's time for a filter change, perhaps even past time.

All filter medias aren't consistant in their pour size. Sometimes a 15um particle hits a 13um pour...sometimes it passes through a 20 um pour. Go look at Grease's filter study and look at the variance in pour size ..and also research what Beta ratings mean. When a filter claims an "absolute" ..that's the smallest pour in the media (by some standard).

burntkat · Oct 23, 2005

Thanks Gary-- looks like I have some homework. Thanks!

Gary Allan · Oct 23, 2005

Rereading my post ..it didn't sound at all like I wanted it to

Anyway, Grease's study does have great stuff in it that would answer many of your questions. If you have some after looking at it, post something in the filter forum ..or auto/gen

.

LarryL · Oct 23, 2005

I think any full filter interval recomended by Amsoil for use with their bypass might take into consideration the fact that after a while the nonmetalic element becomes a bit fragile. That unobtainable full flow filter is already on the market, that is a filter with a stainless steel cleanable element. And with such a filter you can look inside, every oil change.

You will wipe out some of the cost of such a system by doing exactly what you are doing, research and build it yourself, to say nothing of the fact that you might learn something along the way.

burntkat · Oct 23, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by LarryL:
I think any full filter interval recomended by Amsoil for use with their bypass might take into consideration the fact that after a while the nonmetalic element becomes a bit fragile. That unobtainable full flow filter is already on the market, that is a filter with a stainless steel cleanable element. And with such a filter you can look inside, every oil change.

You will wipe out some of the cost of such a system by doing exactly what you are doing, research and build it yourself, to say nothing of the fact that you might learn something along the way.

Hadn't considered the fragility aspect-- good "eye", Larry.

Got any info on this cleanable FF filter you speak of?

Your last paragraph hit the nail on the head-- I'm all about learning, and if I happen to get exactly what I want out of the system I'm building, cheaper, well that's all the better.

chenobylite · Oct 24, 2005

Oops, sorry about that burntkat. I have a bike but I keep all the cleanable filters in one link folder. My bad. I'f think you'd want to avoid these anyway unless you're gonna run a depth filter along with it.

The only things you need to know about bikes is A) I don't see how anyone could live without one and B) They will hurt you at some point, it's just a matter of time

burntkat · Oct 24, 2005

I'm definitely interestd in running a cleanable filter-- was going to PM you regarding them. Specifically the bit they say where "no oil filter works under 5 microns-- the oil is bigger than that and it flows by, not through"... then in the next columnt "oh, hey- look-- our filter filters the oil down to 5 microns"

errr... ***, Mate?

I'll definitely run depth filtration as well. One concern- among others- I have is since this filter has no bypass, it mmight be possible to run into an oil starvation mode. I asume that's why you suggest depth filtration though?

Also-- the price. YOW!!

Additionally- -though I don't have a bike, I'm looking to get one-- something like a cruiser, but NOT a Harley. I'm too out of shape for a street bike [read: belly in the way]. The wife is a "Harley Chic" more along the lines of the upscale sort of them- but I just can't justify the price for a bike that's so darned finicky and/or prone to overheating. I'll take a Yamaha or something of the like- but I'd LOVE a BMW Enduro or other bike of the sort you might find doing Paris-Dakar. Yup, I'm definitely an "offroad type" as the wife has called me in the past. Guess I never learned to stop stomping in mud puddles [one of my favorite wheeling shirts says "I still play in mud puddles" with the JEEP logo underneath]

Plus, there's the whole "don't know how to ride 'em" thing-- but I hope to get past that shortly.

chenobylite · Oct 24, 2005

Here's two cleanables:

http://tinyurl.com/c9y74

http://tinyurl.com/b3oed

I want to make it clear again that the ShuroFlow pumps mentioned will work but are not optimum, especially for post oiling. They should be OK for preoiling.

Amsoil Pre-charger

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